FCC Drivers - no Sunday working

[ungreat]

Never has been guards on FCC trains......
Unless you mean RPIs

 

[Hellfire]

Is it a closed shop - ie are all drivers union members ?

Closed shops are illegal and have been since the 1980s.

Unions serve a very useful function in negotiations over terms and conditions. Contrary to what some people may think most employers welcome unions because it's impossible for them to negotiate individually with every member of staff.

 

[Butts]

Closed shops are illegal and have been since the 1980s.

Unions serve a very useful function in negotiations over terms and conditions. Contrary to what some people may think most employers welcome unions because it's impossible for them to negotiate individually with every member of staff.

If thats the case why has Union Membership outwith the Public Sector and a few other specialised areas almost ceased to exist.

If most employers favoured Unions surely the majority of the workforce would be in one.

 

[Carlisle]

If thats the case why has Union Membership outwith the Public Sector and a few other specialised areas almost ceased to exist.

If most employers favoured Unions surely the majority of the workforce would be in one.

Trade unions have been an important part of the rail industry since about 1880 other industries that formerly had strong unions eg coal mining, printing ,steel ,shipbuilding and automotive have shrunk considerably in the numbers employed in the last few decades so their unions don't command the power and influence they once did

 

[Butts]

Trade unions have been an important part of the rail industry since about 1880 other industries that formerly had strong unions eg coal mining, printing ,steel ,shipbuilding and automotive have shrunk considerably in the numbers employed in the last few decades so their unions don't command the power and influence they once did

But if "most employers welcome unions" as Hellfire says why are so few people in a Union ?

 

[Carlisle]

But if "most employers welcome unions" as Hellfire says why are so few people in a Union ?

Personally I would say it's mainly Govt. Departments and larger firms with an established history of negotiating with unions that would actually 'welcome them ,'most smaller firms seem to be indifferent in the main to their existence in my experience

 

[A-driver]

Shortage of drivers again today but not on the same scale as last week though, got a feeling this is going to be an ongoing erratic service on a Sunday in weeks to come

It looks like it doesn't stop there either as there are no guards on the trains between Cambridge and Kings Lynn on a Sunday in recent weeks although the gates are shut in the morning at Lynn with two guards manning them but come 4pm they are open, also the boss closes her ticket booth around 4pm

I have just got this feeling that something is going on at FCC

Nothing official is going on, I can confirm that, but as I stated earlier in the thread, the intense new diagrams mean that a lot of drivers are seriously rethinking weather they want to do any overtime. Some diagrams are so intense and long that 4 days of it is enough without coming in on all your days off aswell to work extra. This was pointed out to the company by the unions as soon as the new diagrams were drafted but they refused to listen...

 

[306024]

FCC used to have compulsory Sundays, management have it up during pay talks.

I wonder what they got in return? To run a reliable Sunday service an agreement which has a commitment to work rostered Sundays seems essential. It would appear it exists in some TOCs but not others.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Never has been guards on FCC trains......
Unless you mean RPIs

Same thing really

 

[jopsuk]

Same thing really

Not in the slightest

 

[CockneySparrow]

Not in the slightest

What's the difference then? I dont work on the railway so all I see like every other passenger is someone comes round and clips the tickets

To me and the rest of the public its the same job

 

[notadriver]

What's the difference then? I dont work on the railway so all I see like every other passenger is someone comes round and clips the tickets



To me and the rest of the public its the same job

Conductors or guards are safety critical - which is needed on routes or trains where the driver doesn't do the doors.

 

[Tomnick]

No guard (where required) = no go.

 

[tsr]

No guard (where required) = no go.

Unless the train can be run DOO (equipment, route & stock suitable) and special permission is given. This can be applicable to Southern on the Redhill-Gatwick line of route, for example.

A lack of a guard to work a train doesn't mean it is automatically cancelled/unable to move, in some areas.

 

[jopsuk]

What's the difference then? I dont work on the railway so all I see like every other passenger is someone comes round and clips the tickets

To me and the rest of the public its the same job

Where trains are operated with guards/conductors, they are jointly responsible with the driver for the safety of the train. Their primary role is safety- in some parts of some companies (South West Trains on the inner-suburban routes for example) they may have no role whatsoever in revenue enforcement.

if a route/company has guards, they are required to be on every service. Without the guard, the train will not run. Very often the train couldn't run- the driver may not have controls for the doors and/or a safe way of observing the doors when closing them. On Driver Only Operation routes you may notice a bank of mmonitors at the end of the platform plus cameras along it, or big mirrors. Alternatively at some stations the driver may be able to look back out the cab window, or on modern stock they may have cameras mounted on the train with monitors in the cab.

On DOO routes, and also on routes with non-revenue guards, you'll get Revenue protection/enforcement inspectors/officers (the terminology seems to vary?). They're solely responsible for checking tickets. They don't have to be on every train (they'll be on a small % of them) and tend to operate in pairs from what I've seen.

 

[Tomnick]

Unless the train can be run DOO (equipment, route & stock suitable) and special permission is given. This can be applicable to Southern on the Redhill-Gatwick line of route, for example.

A lack of a guard to work a train doesn't mean it is automatically cancelled/unable to move, in some areas.

Hence "where required". The vast majority of routes will either require a guard or be DOO already though.

 

[tsr]

if a route/company has guards, they are required to be on every service. Without the guard, the train will not run.

Except in special circumstances, as I posted above, although this isn't applicable in this case.

On DOO routes, and also on routes with non-revenue guards, you'll get Revenue protection/enforcement inspectors/officers (the terminology seems to vary?). They're solely responsible for checking tickets. They don't have to be on every train (they'll be on a small % of them) and tend to operate in pairs from what I've seen.

Exact terminology can depend on rank & training. RPIs (or those with similar titles) may work on their employer's trains or any of those with whom their employer has an agreement - likewise at stations. Sometimes these trains have guards, sometimes they don't. They can and do work trains with "commercial" guards, as this prevents the guard from getting stuck in the middle of a busy carriage talking to a passenger about a ticket (for example), when they should be dealing with the doors or other safety procedures.

Many TOCs also have Neighbourhood Officers or similar - generally security personnel with revenue & also track safety training. They won't carry out the guard's duties with regards to despatch, however.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hence "where required". The vast majority of routes will either require a guard or be DOO already though.

Sorry, yes - I was just trying to clarify the difference between "where required", and where the guard may usually be provided but doesn't have to be.

 

[pt_mad]

I hope none of the drivers choose to go anywhere on their day off and turn up only to find it is closed "due to no staff prepared to work overtime" :cry:

Spanish Customs or what - why don't they put them on a "five days out of seven" contract that most normal 7 Day Operations use. This would solve the problem overnight.

But are the staff at these places that might be closed working overtime on a Sunday?

More likely it is either part of their normal working hours in that week, or they may be part time with just a few days work a week.

If retailers made Sundays overtime they may also find that a lot of people would choose not to work some /all Sundays. To get around this it is more than likely part of the working week. As mentioned above many TOCs have veered away from this as it would mean employing more staff.

It is not the fault of drivers/guards/station staff etc that Sundays are / are not outside the working week. They are simply following the terms in their contracts. If Sundays are optional and they choose not to work they are within their rights.

 

[Gricerjo]

I think that's more fantasy than anything. I don't have many fears for the future of the job, not in our lifetimes anyway. Looking properly at it, and not as Mcnulty or the press, you will see that drivers arnt as expensive as we are portrayed and eroding pay and conditions will work out more expensive in all.

Would this were the case A-driver. Do not underestimate the need to keep the costs of running the railway down, the avarice of private sector train operating companies, this Government's anti-union agenda and the travelling publics anger at a decade of above RPI fare rises and belief that drivers on £35K+ p.a + final salary pensions are already feather-bedded.

I'm old enough to remember when dockers, miners and printers thought they had well paid jobs for life - where are they now?

 

[notadriver]

Train drivers are not dockers or printers or miners. They are closer to pilots in terms of their responsibilities.

 

[pt_mad]

Train drivers are not dockers or printers or miners. They are closer to pilots in terms of their responsibilities.

Plus those industries were in decline whereas rail travel is not.

If the railway was in serious decline staff there would be in danger.

 

[notadriver]

Interestingly my American friends see rail travel as an outdated 20th century form of transportation.

 

[pt_mad]

Interestingly my American friends see rail travel as an outdated 20th century form of transportation.

Yes but America is a whole lot bigger than our island nation.

 

[A-driver]

Would this were the case A-driver. Do not underestimate the need to keep the costs of running the railway down, the avarice of private sector train operating companies, this Government's anti-union agenda and the travelling publics anger at a decade of above RPI fare rises and belief that drivers on £35K+ p.a + final salary pensions are already feather-bedded.

I'm old enough to remember when dockers, miners and printers thought they had well paid jobs for life - where are they now?

As has been said, those industries don't compare. Rail travel is still growing and if anything even more drivers are going to be needed in the future. Projects like thameslink and cross rail alone will require a significant increase in the number of drivers.

The first paragraph of your post is media hype and not true. Reducing drivers pay or conditions will cost more in total, plus the need isn't there as we are far from overpaid compared with productivity and revenue brought in etc.

And if nothing else, rail unions hold the trump card over industries like miners and dockers that even the threat of industrial action would cause significant damage immediately. If we walk out between 0500-0900 on a Monday then straight away part of the country will be in big trouble both logistically and economically. I'm not suggesting unions bully their way through but it means that any changes will be negotiated, not forced- that is how it should be.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Surely if 'drivers are approaching pilots in responsibility', it's important they are properly rested before their shift, and do not work an excessive number of hours each week.
The drivers of PSV & LGV vehicles are tightly regulated as to their working hours and rest periods.

For the safety of passengers & the general public why should the same notapply to train drivers?

 

[A-driver]

Surely if 'drivers are approaching pilots in responsibility', it's important they are properly rested before their shift, and do not work an excessive number of hours each week.
The drivers of PSV & LGV vehicles are tightly regulated as to their working hours and rest periods.

For the safety of passengers & the general public why should the same notapply to train drivers?

The same does apply to train drivers. There are strict regulations regarding how much time off we need, how long we can spend in control of a train, how much time we need off between shifts, how many days in a row we can work etc.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Thanks for replying so quickly.

As that is the case, would it not be sensible to make it a condition of the renewed franchise agreements to contractually oblige the TOC provide evidence that they employ the required number of drivers to ensure they can provide a full seven day service, without requiring overtime working?

That would be better for the customers, the taxpayers who are heavily subsidising the industry, and even the drivers as more jobs will be created, giving more employment opportunities.

 

[notadriver]

London Underground drivers are not permitted to work any overtime. They therefore have lots of spare drivers sitting around spare to cover any shortfall. I imagine their wage bill to be collosal compared with some TOCs who only have 1 spare driver or conductor available at any given time. It's all about costs and staff wise I reckon a lot of TOCs operate the bare minimum required to save money.

 

[jopsuk]

"how terrible that the train companies don't have enough trained drivers to cover all the shifts"

"how terrible that the train companies have highly paid drivers sitting around in mess rooms doing nothing all day"

pick one of those headlines. Really hard to avoid one without triggering the other.

 

[notadriver]

I've just found the solution to the problem! Only pay drivers when they are actually driving trains. Similar to taxi drivers who only get paid when carrying passengers and there's never a shortage of taxi/Minicab drivers practically begging for a fare!