DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[HH]

That gives an average wage of £47291.

You would have to weight the wages by the number of drivers at each company to get a proper average. Not that it would be close to £60k. Earnings would be though. But that would include a fair bit of overtime, which OFC Wilko didn't mention. Numbers are tricky things to pin down...

 

[Jamesb1974]

Some people have very little earnings potential, they are paid a fixed salary and that's that. They may have unpaid overtime. Others get more on paid overtime, some get royalties or sales bonuses, or paid for work done. In other words, true earnings reflect what some workers are prepared to put into it. Drivers partially fall into this category.

It depends how you want to spin it. Do you take the mean average of all drivers including overtime, or not? Possibly, rather naughtily the DFT official is probably talking more about average earnings with overtime.

As you correctly say, 'spin' has got a lot to do with this. What Mr Wilkinson eluded to was a falsehood that drivers were earning £60k per year. I've no doubt at all that what he meant by this was £60k per year in the pocket, rather than the true net income.

£60k gross translates to around £42k net (possibly less depending on the individual's circumstances). To take home £60k per annum, net you'd have to be earning in excess of £90k gross!

 

[HH]

Just to add further spin. A small fact for you. My depot has a very high rest day count in comparison to other depots at my TOC. The average number of rest days worked per Driver last year was 12.

I done some maths using the average turn length, £ph, and base salary and came up with a rest day count that a driver must exceed to earn £60k. What I found that only 2 Drivers actually met that target and that even those with high counts were nowhere near that number.

Considering where we sit on that list posted I think I can say quite confidently that the *average* Driver does not earn £60k.

Did you factor in Sunday working? Extra for Bank Holidays? Driver Instructors getting paid extra?

It may not be those on the highest headline wages earning the most anyway. Uplifts vary on RDW & Sundays as well.

 

[theironroad]

Just as Wilkinson's crowd pleaser statement was made on the basis of ' the train driver down the pub said...', most of this thread is descending into uninformed speculation.

Pretty much every TOC has a different pay structure for drivers and if you look at the long running thread on great westerns harmonisation attempts, even within one TOC there can be vast difference a in pay, allowances and terms and conditions.

Those quoting the figures on the aslef website should bear in mind that they are often out of date, and not clear cut and make no reference to the whole picture of t&c and allowances, so they are pretty much meaningless unless you're employed by the TOC/TOC and know exactly what the deal is.

In short, the thread is going round and round like a rounder.

 

[ComUtoR]

Did you factor in Sunday working? Extra for Bank Holidays? Driver Instructors getting paid extra?

It may not be those on the highest headline wages earning the most anyway. Uplifts vary on RDW & Sundays as well.

We don't get any enhancements for Bank holiday, Sundays or Rest days. It is all paid flat rate.

When we were getting extra for Sundays it was still a pittance. The belief that we are getting massive enhancement for this, that and the other is misplaced and very much overstated. If I was working a Sunday then I was getting about £25 extra. I don't work that many Sundays per year. In fact in the top 52 lines of the roster there are only 18 Sundays and there are only 20 Sundays in our total roster. We don't get paid them but if our roster is anything to go by then a TOC with Sunday enhancement still isn't making a significant step towards £60

As to DI enhancements yes they do get paid extra but the £££'s needed to reach £60k still wouldn't push them closer. In fact they see it as less of a reason to do overtime. We only have a minimal number of DI's too so their enhancement doesn't make a significant contribution to the numbers.

I can also account for other unlisted overtime and it really isn't significant.

Having the raw rest day count in front of me shows a more factual and accountable figure for overtime earnings. I will admit that I thought it would be higher than I found but it really isn't.

If we take Headshots calculation of £47,291 you see that you would need to earn £12,709 worth of overtime to hit £60k That is a very large sum and those near the bottom of the table are much further behind.

To get the average to be near £60k... Sorry, its just not credible.

 

[D1009]

What I found offensive was the suggestion that drivers were getting 60k for a 3 day week. I'll say no more than that.

 

[whoosh]

Exactly. £60k for a 3 day week is what he said.

That's an exaggeration of about 25% in pay, and a 25% reduction in hours. Both significant amounts. In fact it's worse than that, as our four day week has almost as many hours as most peoples' five day week.


Incidentally, in the last financial year I would estimate that I worked about 40 additional days (a mixture of Rest Days and booked Sundays). That's about 10 WEEKS worth of extra work, and I still didn't earn £60k.
Some of the weeks I was at work, I worked all seven days.

So I hope you can see what a lying insulting man Peter Wilkinson is.

 

[Llanigraham]

Hmmm I'm not so sure. A signaller is still required for blocks/possessions, organise signalling of train during disruption, control level crossings etc etc. Signallers workload may be decreased but certainly don't see the role going any time soon.

Signallers will still be around, even with ERTMS, but what is going is the small rural Box controlling a section perhaps 15 miles long.
Granting blocks and possessions, and setting ESR's seems easier under ERTMS.
Level crossing control can easily be done with CCTV or a LIDOR system that actually works (??).
From personal experience I would prefer to work ERTMS at Machy than work at the control centre at Cardiff!!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

As a whole if drivers didn't work their rest days, how quickly would the national network as a whole fall apart?

 

[theironroad]

As a whole if drivers didn't work their rest days, how quickly would the national network as a whole fall apart?

Not sure about 'fall apart', but there would be significantly more train cancellations if drivers stopped volunteering to work on their rostered days off, when they could be at leisure or with family and friends.

However, TOCs would still say the train was cancelled due to ' unavailability of train crew'.

Let's be clear, during normal timetable working (ie not during major disruption caused by infrastructure issues or fatalities etc) then lack of train drivers is firmly down to TOCs trying to run the job on the cheap by not employing enough drivers to run the timetable while allowing for ongoing training, sickness, holidays etc.

 

[M7R]

Can anyone fill me in on what EMT (maintrain) is however?

EMT depot driver. Maintrain is the arm who run the depots, like the one you can see off the end of Nottingham, or the one you pass near Derby station. My cousians husband works there and he has mentioned depot drivers jobs to me before. (On a side note the EMT trains now have a sticker inside them normally on the ends near the vestibule saying which depot looks after the unit if your interested).

 

[Peter Sarf]

.....
The timetable is the same but the duty lengths are not, if we worked the same duty every weekday we could be on anything from 7 hours a day to 9hrs45 a day, 4 of those would either be a very short or very long week, so to balance it out we work 3 or 4 different shifts to get the hours near enough.

One of our worst weeks is-
Sun 15:50-23:50 (8.00) (you know the day we don't have to work, apparently )
Mon 14:00-22:40 (8.40)
Tue 14:00-23:00 (9.00)
Wed 22:30-06:31 ((8.01)
Thu 19:45-04:45 (9.00)
Fri RD (yep we finish work 4hrs45 minutes into our 'rest' day!
Sat RD

Also note the short turn around on Thursday, finishing at 06:31 and back in at 19:45, brilliant for fatigue!

Thanks 455driver. That's the sort of thing I thought happened. I expect that pattern is not even repeated every week so you really have to regularly get your head round the roster to figure out where your optimum spare/relaxation time is - and time for errands.

I think I understand what you are saying. The days have to vary in length so that the week total is near enough to the weekly average.

I can imagine the only solution is to employ more drivers at less total pay. Could achieve this by reducing the length of the working week and varying it from week to week. So some weeks would be very low on actual hours worked. But ideally paid as though, say, 35 hours had been worked. But the goal would be to have a more steady work pattern. All very contentious and I am not seriously proposing it. I can see however that we are instead in a spiral of making the job harder and harder and thus more expensive !.

 

[ComUtoR]

30 Drivers at my depot didn't work a single rest day last year. How much do those working overtime need to earn to drag the *average* wage up to £60k

 

[fIIsion]

Interesting question but rather than speculate as most people do here, better to look at systems that already have 'driverless trains' such as london victoria line, Gatwick, Heathrow, Bangkok, Barcelona, loads of french cities,North America, South America, South East Asia etc. etc. We are so far behind some countries with this it is ridiculous!

Victoria line is not driverless.

 

[highdyke]

I think the problem drivers have is the public see train driving as a fairly easy job, that doesn't require a degree (and no associated debt). The union doesn't help pushing an agenda of working men who need to vote left. They need to change that image.

The reality is with an average salary of £47k this puts drivers at a similar level of pay to barristers and solicitors - the top 13% of salaries, well into upper middle class territory. In fact drivers have recently been regraded by the ONS as 'Associate transport professionals' putting them in the same classification as Air Traffic Controllers, Flight Engineers, Pilots etc Also non-degree jobs. Signallers need regrading too to reflect the realities of the ROCs, not the mechanical boxes of yesteryear.

A good dose of mature industrial relations from all sides, might not be amiss to reflect the reality of the job, in the new age of railway professionals.

 

[Latecomer]

I have not worked a single rest day in 5 years - even though I have been pressured to do so on occasion. ASLEF's stance is that TOC's should not be dependent on rest day work and they support the creation of more driver jobs rather than having fewer drivers cram in the hours.

That's an entirely honourable position. I don't knock drivers who do work rest days, it's their choice. I do however think that it is a precarious position for both driver and TOC. Drivers ought not to base their lifestyle on overtime which cannot be guaranteed in perpetuity. I also question sometimes the side deals that go on at most depots where some drivers are given preferential work or easy jobs because they have been prepared to dig the TOC out of a hole. In a similar way the TOC's are taking a risk that they will be able to maintain service levels if there is a glut of illness or if a lot of drivers end up off track for whatever reason. The way most drivers are being worked these days this is a realistic scenario and if people then decide that the job is tiring enough without the extra rest days then services will get cancelled.

I believe that TOC's should keep establishment figures up and keep adequate spares but of course this is all a trade off between keeping shareholders happy through reduced costs while still attempting to run a railway that is robust enough to cope with many different types of events without too much delay or disruption to passengers. At the moment I don't think enough is spent on the overall driver pool. It pays them to use existing drivers as and when required. There will always be a bit of that required but in my opinion (and I may differ here with some of my colleagues), the current position in most TOC's is flawed, is open to abuse and does not serve the interests of the public or on a broader level lead to more job creation.

 

[D1009]

A good dose of mature industrial relations

Is that a euphemism for something?

 

[notadriver]

I think the problem drivers have is the public see train driving as a fairly easy job, that doesn't require a degree (and no associated debt). The union doesn't help pushing an agenda of working men who need to vote left. They need to change that image.

Not just the public. I still do a bit of PCV driving (once or twice a month) and I constantly have to put with jibes from the other PCV drivers ranging from stories theyve heard about trains being cancelled because the drivers cab had no heat to which is harder pushing or pulling the lever and you dont have to steer... :roll:

 

[HH]

I believe that TOC's should keep establishment figures up and keep adequate spares but of course this is all a trade off between keeping shareholders happy through reduced costs while still attempting to run a railway that is robust enough to cope with many different types of events without too much delay or disruption to passengers. At the moment I don't think enough is spent on the overall driver pool. It pays them to use existing drivers as and when required. There will always be a bit of that required but in my opinion (and I may differ here with some of my colleagues), the current position in most TOC's is flawed, is open to abuse and does not serve the interests of the public or on a broader level lead to more job creation.

In my opinion this reliance on RDW is not as much cheaper as it's made out. There are hidden costs. Plus it's only too easy to slip from 'just enough' to 'not quite enough' to 'OMFG, we're short!'

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We don't get any enhancements for Bank holiday, Sundays or Rest days. It is all paid flat rate.

Many do get enhancements of one sort or another and most TOCs Sundays are still paid in addition to basic, but I agree that the overall average is less than £60k; and in any case the inference was that £60k was basic. I don't think anyone is saying that Wilko's figures are accurate.

That he has made no attempt to justify his remarks says that he also knows they were inaccurate. I'm surprised that more has not been made of it.

 

[455driver]

That roster is scandalous, as is 455's. I presume 455's is on SWT and I'm surprised it is necessary there, on a busy suburban railway.

No its GWR, I suppose I should really change my username to something more appropriate!

 

[theironroad]

In my opinion this reliance on RDW is not as much cheaper as it's made out. There are hidden costs. Plus it's only too easy to slip from 'just enough' to 'not quite enough' to 'OMFG, we're short!'

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many do get enhancements of one sort or another and most TOCs Sundays are still paid in addition to basic, but I agree that the overall average is less than £60k; and in any case the inference was that £60k was basic. I don't think anyone is saying that Wilko's figures are accurate.

That he has made no attempt to justify his remarks says that he also knows they were inaccurate. I'm surprised that more has not been made of it.

Just to be clear, the circa 1300 drivers on SWT get NO enhancements for either rest day working and EVERY day is paid at base rate and EVERY day is within the contracted working week, so Sundays are within the working week as well as ALL bank holidays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There has been over 350 postings now made upon this thread and I wonder if there has been any official statement made by the DfT itself that confirms the veracity of the title of this thread.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There has been over 350 postings now made upon this thread and I wonder if there has been any official statement made by the DfT itself that confirms the veracity of the title of this thread.

None its a storm in a (drivers) tea mug.

 

[dk1]

None its a storm in a (drivers) tea mug.

Just to add to that comment (as I've never seen so many comments about comments) you'd be hard pressed to find a drivers tea mug these days. Most, inc me, tend to use AMT or the like. Well we've got to dispose of that £60k per annum somewhere during the 3 days we show our face.

 

[Railengineer]

How much spare money will there be to implement ERTMS/ETSC or even ATO on a large scale, baring in mind that even if you consider such systems are desirable, they are not essential for train operation. I have a feeling NR will be restricted to keeping the existing network running as it is, with minor upgrades here and there.

The spending of money is all about business cases. Remember what you just said and watch the press over the next few months!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Just to be clear, the circa 1300 drivers on SWT get NO enhancements for either rest day working and EVERY day is paid at base rate and EVERY day is within the contracted working week, so Sundays are within the working week as well as ALL bank holidays.

And that's why there was a significant drop in volunteers for rest day working, when they took the last ¼ off the payment, it didn't really much sense to keep working them, that ¼ was just enough to cover the extra tax & NI etc on them.

I stopped working them as soon as they did it, even leaving them in the lurch for one day that they'd booked me in advance. I told them, they took no notice, I never showed. Trains got cancelled. Meh!

The only time overtime gets paid at enhanced rate is when it's enforced, which amounts to a tiny bit, last month I got £20. Whoopie bleedin' do!

What gets me is there are an increasing bunch of mugs on SW, that will do rest day work for less than a normal days pay.

They don't ask me anymore, as they've realised that I'm no mug.

 

[Greenback]

This seems to be a good point to close the thread, which seems to have drifted quite a long way from the original press report and subject.