DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[highdyke]

ECTS does in fact have an ATO module. However, both signallers and drivers will be retained for various reasons for the foreseeable future.

The amount of signalling jobs has been decreasing since about 1900, as technology has enabled signallers to control wider areas. The ROCs are part of that.

The real threat to railway jobs will come in the form of autonomous cars, buses and trucks. That said, I'm not a believer in some of the predictions and the technology itself. Nevertheless we shall have to see.

 

[Railengineer]

Well you really are showing your naivety on this I'm afraid! Yes most commercial aircraft spend most of there flying time on autopilot but the automation is used to reduce pilot workload not replace the pilot! Yes certain aircraft can do a CAT 3b auto land but the crew need to have the correct certification and the airport and ILS equipment has to have the correct certification. Most approaches are flown down to about 1000ft above the ground using the automation to keep the pilot workload down and the last bit is mostly flown by hand. CAT 3b auto lands are mostly used when the weather is so bad the crew cannot see the runway environment and for practice to keep the crew competency up to date.

Not naive just didn't see the point in going into loads detail just to show off my level of knowledge. Clearly the significant difference between planes and trains is that if the plane fails it falls out of the sky rather than just stopping. Thus they put a squishy person in front to try and save the day which sometimes works e.g hudson river landing which doesn't quite compare to a class 91 sitting down at holloway.

With regards to ECTS, that is in cab signalling not "driverless trains".

I think I said that drivers were pricing themselves out of business and being de-skilled by technology?

And funnily enough all these new trains that are being ordered recently that will be around for the next 30 odd years all required the organic squishy bit at the front to drive them.

They are being ordered with seats in the front because they need someone there for the time being

I'm not quite sure if you believe what you are posting or or part of the camp that hopes and preys for the demise of the driver.

I wouldn't post it if I didn't believe it my friend.

Hmmm I'm not so sure. A signaller is still required for blocks/possessions, organise signalling of train during disruption, control level crossings etc etc. Signallers workload may be decreased but certainly don't see the role going any time soon.

Good point actually, although the signaller numbers would have to be reduced when the automation comes into force because they would be moved centrally into the ROC's, but they are needed to oversee operations and make decisions when incidents occur. More at risk are the signal maintainers because moving the signalling system into the cab takes the technology off the track and into the train.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Has anyone posted a sensible answer to the question "what happens when a driverless/ATO train fails"?

 

[bnm]

Has anyone posted a sensible answer to the question "what happens when a driverless/ATO train fails"?

What sort of failure are you talking about?

 

[highdyke]

http://www.irse.org/knowledge/publicdocuments/2.06 Bienfait - Automatic Train Operation for ETCS.pdf

http://cometandnova.org/research-unattended-train-operation/

 

[theironroad]

Indeed. Salaries are often used as ammunition to garner support for reforms and changes to working practices. I'm just surprised we haven't had a pointless comparison between a driver's salary and that of a Nurse/Junior Doctor/Teacher.....etc etc etc etc.

Well I'm not going to make pointless comparisons about the actual salaries of any grade, but the ongoing junior docs strike highlights one issue and that is what is Saturday working valued at. The docs are partially in dispute about the hours on Saturday which will attract a enhanced rate of pay even when they are part of their base hours.

While Sundays are a mixed bag on the railways, I'm not aware of any train driver who receives an enhanced rate of pay for working on Saturday.

Drivers at the TOC I work for, (swt) do not receive any enhancement for their contracted base hours regardless of the hour of the day or the day of the week. Every day of the year is considered the same ( no bank holiday or Christmas enhancement) and if Christmas day is not a normal rostered day off in my roster then I have to use 1 day of my 27 days annual leave for Christmas day (and it is compulsory to take the day off as no trains run for my passenger TOC).

Compulsory overtime which I'm contracted to do above my base hours is now payable at 1.5 times base regardless of day of week. voluntary overtime (ie working a rest day) used to be enhanced but at my TOC now only attract base rate, again regardless of hour or day, which is partially why there has been a drop off in people working days off at my toc.

In the mess of the present day rail industry, other TOCs may have varying arrangements.

 

[Railengineer]

Has anyone posted a sensible answer to the question "what happens when a driverless/ATO train fails"?

Interesting question but rather than speculate as most people do here, better to look at systems that already have 'driverless trains' such as london victoria line, Gatwick, Heathrow, Bangkok, Barcelona, loads of french cities,North America, South America, South East Asia etc. etc. We are so far behind some countries with this it is ridiculous!

 

[Jamesb1974]

What sort of failure are you talking about?

Any. The train comes to a stand through loss of power, electrical problems or mechanical failure. For that matter, it comes to a stand due to adverse railhead conditions.

Or the train hits a vehicle on an unmanned level crossing or a person at an unmanned station in the dead of night or an obstruction placed on the line.

With no driver on board, who fault finds? Who co-ordinates assistance? Who keeps the passengers informed of what is going on? Who informs the signaller at the distant ROC that a vehicle, person or obstruction has been struck?

DOO is already in force with some TOCs and many more want to implement it. With ATO and no one on board , who is responsible for train safety and all of the above?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Page three of High Dyke's first link makes it clear that despite what some on here may think, even the powers that be understand that removing drivers from the equation "isn't completely feasible".

 

[Agent_c]

Any. The train comes to a stand through loss of power, electrical problems or mechanical failure. For that matter, it comes to a stand due to adverse railhead conditions.

Or the train hits a vehicle on an unmanned level crossing or a person at an unmanned station in the dead of night or an obstruction placed on the line.

With no driver on board, who fault finds? Who co-ordinates assistance? Who keeps the passengers informed of what is going on? Who informs the signaller at the distant ROC that a vehicle, person or obstruction has been struck?

DOO is already in force with some TOCs and many more want to implement it. With ATO and no one on board , who is responsible for train safety and all of the above?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Page three of High Dyke's first link makes it clear that despite what some on here may think, even the powers that be understand that removing drivers from the equation "isn't completely feasible".

Well, you'd have to have your DLR-style "Customer services" person who can also operate the manual controls hidden in the train.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Have a read of that first link that High Dyke kindly posted. It makes clear why ATO is in place on some lines and why complete ATO isn't suitable for mainline operations.

 

[The Planner]

Interesting question but rather than speculate as most people do here, better to look at systems that already have 'driverless trains' such as london victoria line, Gatwick, Heathrow, Bangkok, Barcelona, loads of french cities,North America, South America, South East Asia etc. etc. We are so far behind some countries with this it is ridiculous!

Are those rapid transit systems or mainline over significant distances?

 

[Railengineer]

Page three of High Dyke's first link makes it clear that despite what some on here may think, even the powers that be understand that removing drivers from the equation "isn't completely feasible".

One line in how many pages????
Nobody has been suggesting it is feasible everywhere. In fact this thread was all about wages as I recall? Thus the de-skilling of drivers in these automatic train schemes would probably see them classified as train 'operators' the same as other countries have done. That's how they get the salaries down to sensible levels.

 

[theironroad]

I don't really want to wade into the ato stuff much, suffice to say while it's technically possible on a widespread area, running ato on the central core of crossrail) and core of Thameslink (not sure if it is london Bridge to kentish town?) In a relatively low speed and controlled urban environment is vastly different to the environmental challenges faced at higher speeds in suburban and rural areas.

 

[Railengineer]

Are those rapid transit systems or mainline over significant distances?

They vary, there is a very long list on wikipedia somewhere

 

[IKB]

One line in how many pages????
Nobody has been suggesting it is feasible everywhere. In fact this thread was all about wages as I recall? Thus the de-skilling of drivers in these automatic train schemes would probably see them classified as train 'operators' the same as other countries have done. That's how they get the salaries down to sensible levels.

http://www.irse.org/knowledge/publicdocuments/2.06 Bienfait - Automatic Train Operation for ETCS.pdf

Pages 2 and 3 make it quite clear why urban transit is not the same as mainline rail and why full blown ATO without a driver is not feasible.

 

[Jamesb1974]

One line in how many pages????
Nobody has been suggesting it is feasible everywhere. In fact this thread was all about wages as I recall? Thus the de-skilling of drivers in these automatic train schemes would probably see them classified as train 'operators' the same as other countries have done. That's how they get the salaries down to sensible levels.

One line? It was about wages, yes. Then it followed the standard theme and started talking about automation (again).

As a result of the above, many Urban ATO functions relate to controlling the entry of trains into stations, precision of stopping and the management of doors (on the trains, but often nowadays on platforms as well).
It is clear that the introduction of ATO on metros is simplified by the characteristics of most metro applications, for example:

• Lines are predominantly in protected areas (tunnel, or elevated structures)
• Each line is sufficiently self-contained to be re-equipped to a uniform standard at each upgrade during its life
• There is little inter-working between different lines
• The platforms are all quite similar
• The track layout is quite simple
• Due to the intensive services, all on-track engineering work must take place outside service periods.
• The train fleet is homogeneous and dedicated to passenger traffic Automatic Train Operation: the mandatory improvement for ETCS applications Page 3 of 10
• The trains are normally allocated to particular lines

Given this combination of characteristics, the total segregation of the track with complete exclusion of people is a necessity on a busy metro line, and the trains can be made captive to an individual line. Thus, the fitment of a
bespoke ATO/ATP system on a whole line and its trains is feasible.


The same goals, mentioned above, may be shared by Main Line Operators on a small number of routes; for example those carrying intensive inner suburban and cross-city services. But, on the remainder of the main line
network, even the trains forming these intensive services find themselves sharing tracks with a variety of othertraffic – after all, this is the essence of a main line network.

For a Main Line Operator, the benefits of ATO functions lie in different areas to the urban case, for example:

• To manage the delivery of varied service patterns on a mixed-traffic network, according to the realtime schedule defined by the Traffic Management System, in order to improve the punctuality of trains (with consequent benefits for passengers) and to minimise the impact of disruptions (train delays, localised equipment failures, etc.). Benefits gained in this way may be used to increase the resilience of the network to disturbances and/or to increase network capacity (as for urban applications).
• To optimise speed curves in real time, in order to save energy (e.g. by not running faster than isnecessary to arrive at a junction at the correct time, and by avoiding conflicts with other train movements)
• To reduce the mechanical wear on both trains and track, by travelling only as fast as is necessary, thereby reducing maintenance costs.

However, the operational constraints of main line networks are significantly more complex than they are for urban ones:
• The track layout is larger and more complex
• The roll-out of new systems across the network takes many years, resulting in most journeys spanning lines with significantly different levels of fitment of infrastructure
• A lot of different train types (with different performance and door layout)
• The trains are not all dedicated to a particular line; they may go anywhere on their national network, and in certain cases anywhere in Europe.
• Absolute exclusion of people (as well as animals and other obstructions) from tracks is not practically achievable throughout a national network, with vast lengths of fencing to maintain, and a multiplicity of overbridges, road level crossings, footpath crossings, open platforms, etc.
• Many journeys have to take place during periods when substantial on-track engineering work is in progress.
• Infrastructure owners and train owners and operators are independent – and sometimes, other parties are also involved – such as train leasers

Consequently, complete automation by removal of the driver is not completely feasible for main line services. So, the actual question is not “how to apply ATO developed for Urban applications on Main Lines”, but rather
“what ATO functions are needed to achieve the operational goals for the Main Line network”, e.g. to improve punctuality and resilience of services, save energy, and reduce mechanical wear, by using information coming
from the Traffic Management System (real time profiles and management of timetabled paths

 

[Dave1987]

One line in how many pages????
Nobody has been suggesting it is feasible everywhere. In fact this thread was all about wages as I recall? Thus the de-skilling of drivers in these automatic train schemes would probably see them classified as train 'operators' the same as other countries have done. That's how they get the salaries down to sensible levels.

Wages are based on the knowledge a driver has to have and the responsibility as well. Would love for you explain how your "train captain" on your fully automated train would have any less knowledge or responsibility than a current driver does. Not to mention the huge amount of extremely expensive infrastructure required for your automated train. Seems to me that my role is very safe for the foreseeable future, if not my entire career, whether you believe driver wages are out of control or not.

 

[Bellbell]

Both sides are spinning on this. Those salaries do not, in general, include overtime, Sundays, travel, pretty good holiday and pension entitlements.

The *average* driver probably does earn £60k.

Why is this an attack, why be ashamed? People have fought for these salaries aided and abetted by their unions.

Isn't that the case for most salaries? I see your point with regards to Sundays if they are committed, but if they're not committed or already in the working week it doesn't apply. Overtime, perks and pension entitlements are not usually given in the headline rate in the UK. Your comment on pretty good holiday is relative, isn't it? I get 26 days holiday a year on a 4 day week which is above the minimum, sure, but nothing compared to what my civil servant friend gets.

I know you're not attacking salaries but I don't know if it's particularly fair to call it spin to leave out overtime, perks, pension and holiday.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Wages are based on the knowledge a driver has to have and the responsibility as well. Would love for you explain how your "train captain" on your fully automated train would have any less knowledge or responsibility than a current driver does. Not to mention the huge amount of extremely expensive infrastructure required for your automated train. Seems to me that my role is very safe for the foreseeable future, if not my entire career, whether you believe driver wages are out of control or not.

Agreed Dave1987. Automation probably will come at some point, but I can guarantee that it won't be until I'm retired (19 years) and it probably won't be at the level that some think it will be.

Both sides are spinning on this. Those salaries do not, in general, include overtime, Sundays, travel, pretty good holiday and pension entitlements.

The *average* driver probably does earn £60k.

Why is this an attack, why be ashamed? People have fought for these salaries aided and abetted by their unions.

That's a pretty disingenuous post if you don't mind me saying 'High Dyke'.

Not everyone wants to work overtime so you can't say that there is any such thing as the 'average driver'. Likewise, not everyone gets enhanced payments for working Sundays. Some do, a lot don't.

As for travel, the 'priv' travel scheme only applies to staff that worked for BR prior to 1995. No one who joined after '95 gets free travel (except for on your own TOC if you are a passenger driver). Post '95 freight drivers don't get any free travel at all! I am in the situation where my employer also owns several passenger franchises, yet I am not eligible for free travel with other group companies.

Holidays, yes they are good but my employer tells me when I am having them. My leave is allocated into periods that may or may not be suitable for family life.

Pension entitlements are similar to the public sector job I had before and with the new pension reforms, fall into line with everyone else.

 

[Sleepy]

we have a lovely finish Saturday 0330 - sign on Monday 0430 !! WTF does this say about fatigue.........

 

[Class 170101]

voluntary overtime (ie working a rest day) used to be enhanced but at my TOC now only attract base rate, again regardless of hour or day, which is partially why there has been a drop off in people working days off at my toc.

But I guess thats theoretical as well.

An example I know of an eight hour turn is uncovered with one driver on RDW able to cover it.

Roster clerk: asks driver would he / she cover turn
Driver: No
Roster Clerk: 12 hours
Driver Ok then

Thats time and a half (NB Driver actually only works eight hours)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps you were looking here?

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/companies/

It's not 100% up to date, but its a starter...

Yes this was indeed what I was looking at
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can tell you for definite that at least one of those salaries is two years out of date. I'd expect more of them to be wrong as well.

Only likely to be higher though - I've yet to see a Driver's overall salary fall and I doubt Aslef would accept such a move.

 

[Jamesb1974]

But I guess thats theoretical as well.

An example I know of an eight hour turn is uncovered with one driver on RDW able to cover it.

Roster clerk: asks driver would he / she cover turn
Driver: No
Roster Clerk: 12 hours
Driver Ok then

Thats time and a half (NB Driver actually only works eight hours)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes this was indeed what I was looking at
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Only likely to be higher though - I've yet to see a Driver's overall salary fall and I doubt Aslef would accept such a move.

Indeed.

 

[theironroad]

But I guess thats theoretical as well.

An example I know of an eight hour turn is uncovered with one driver on RDW able to cover it.

Roster clerk: asks driver would he / she cover turn
Driver: No
Roster Clerk: 12 hours
Driver Ok then

Thats time and a half (NB Driver actually only works eight hours)
.

Rest day working on Swt is controlled and allocated by centralised roster office and there is no negotiation, no minimum payment or hours. You get paid to the minute the hours worked. Additionally, if you have left yourself available for fdw then you have very little control over what job is offered ( I believe you can state earlies or lates when signing up), so can be called in for a 6 hr job on Saturday night at 1800 for no enhancement.

 

[D1009]

Thus the de-skilling of drivers in these automatic train schemes would probably see them classified as train 'operators' the same as other countries have done. That's how they get the salaries down to sensible levels.

If I recall correctly, when the Victoria Line opened in 1968, the Automatic Train Operators were paid more than those who drove trains manually on the rest of the system. I'm not sure whether this is still the case.

 

[IKB]

Agreed Dave1987. Automation probably will come at some point, but I can guarantee that it won't be until I'm retired (19 years) and it probably won't be at the level that some think it will be.

I agree. But also mindful of the astronomical costs that will be involved to get there. There are a lot of multiple units knocking around there are less than 10yrs old and would require retrospective fitting of all the necessary equipment, plus all of the lineside technology and infrastructure adjustments.

Not forgetting the costs of HS2. Im not sure of the exact funding structure for that. No doubt there will be some private capital, but the government/NR will be shelling out many billions of pounds. Just look at how costs have spiralled on the GWR electrification. How much spare money will there be to implement ERTMS/ETSC or even ATO on a large scale, baring in mind that even if you consider such systems are desirable, they are not essential for train operation. I have a feeling NR will be restricted to keeping the existing network running as it is, with minor upgrades here and there.

 

[Jamesb1974]

I agree. But also mindful of the astronomical costs that will be involved to get there. There are a lot of multiple units knocking around there are less than 10yrs old and would require retrospective fitting of all the necessary equipment, plus all of the lineside technology and infrastructure adjustments.

Not forgetting the costs of HS2. Im not sure of the exact funding structure for that. No doubt there will be some private capital, but the government/NR will be shelling out many billions of pounds. Just look at how costs have spiralled on the GWR electrification. How much spare money will there be to implement ERTMS/ETSC or even ATO on a large scale, baring in mind that even if you consider such systems are desirable, they are not essential for train operation. I have a feeling NR will be restricted to keeping the existing network running as it is, with minor upgrades here and there.

Totally agree. NR aren't exactly flush with money at the moment. A debt of about £38 billion (£50 billion some news agencies report), forthcoming sell off of major stations and talk of privatisation? I can't see a major project like ERTMS level 3 or ATO coming any time soon.

 

[A-driver]

Once again a thread has just descended into a load of bitter and jealous anti-union posters getting into an uneducated dreamland of deskilled or redundant drivers. Phrases like 'overpayed' and 'priced out' are being used with little thought and this thread has become rather pointless.

Train drivers will still be employed on good pay and conditions for a long, long time yet.

 

[ComUtoR]

Both sides are spinning on this. Those salaries do not, in general, include overtime, Sundays, travel, pretty good holiday and pension entitlements.

The *average* driver probably does earn £60k.

Just to add further spin. A small fact for you. My depot has a very high rest day count in comparison to other depots at my TOC. The average number of rest days worked per Driver last year was 12.

I done some maths using the average turn length, £ph, and base salary and came up with a rest day count that a driver must exceed to earn £60k. What I found that only 2 Drivers actually met that target and that even those with high counts were nowhere near that number.

Considering where we sit on that list posted I think I can say quite confidently that the *average* Driver does not earn £60k.

 

[highdyke]

That's a pretty disingenuous post if you don't mind me saying 'High Dyke'.

Not everyone wants to work overtime so you can't say that there is any such thing as the 'average driver'. Likewise, not everyone gets enhanced payments for working Sundays. Some do, a lot don't.

.

Agreed. And no such thing as the 'average' job, even within an industry.

Some people have very little earnings potential, they are paid a fixed salary and that's that. They may have unpaid overtime. Others get more on paid overtime, some get royalties or sales bonuses, or paid for work done. In other words, true earnings reflect what some workers are prepared to put into it. Drivers partially fall into this category.

It depends how you want to spin it. Do you take the mean average of all drivers including overtime, or not? Possibly, rather naughtily the DFT official is probably talking more about average earnings with overtime.

In short other groups are not immune with spinning on all sorts of subjects. TOCs on price and customer satisfaction, plus punctuality, Unions on profits and safety, NR on cost efficiency and so on. In fact we're probably guilty at some point of marking up or down the real facts, or failing to state caveats to "prove" a point, that's certainly the case in business and advertising that relies on it.

The remark probably wasn't helpful, but that's life.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once again a thread has just descended into a load of bitter and jealous anti-union posters getting into an uneducated dreamland

And the Unions and not guilty of throwing stones at all? I invite anyone to check out the uber leftist, class concious, anti-business, anti-free market, anti-management propaganda. And to an extent there is nothing wrong with it, provided you understand other people are picking up the bill and may have an opinion too. Nether side has the monopoly of fact or opinion.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

 

[Clarence Yard]

People with longer industry memories remember the wastage we had in the 70's when the wages were kept low and we lost loads of people to industries such as road haulage.

Training secondmen who then jacked the job because of the time it would take to get a decent wedge became really dispiriting for the old timers who regarded the job as a good one to have.

Yes, one day there will be more automation but it's a long, long way off. Until that day we will paying someone the going rate to get up at all hours, sit up front in the hot seat, control hundreds or thousands of horsepower and concentrate for hours on end.

What we don't need is civil servants opening their mouths without either doing their homework or, most important of all, engaging their brains. Fortunately, by doing so, he's probably toast in the forthcoming industry reorganisations.