DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[A-driver]

I thought drivers have a forward moving roster.

That 15:50 start seems to be in the wrong place relative to Monday and likewise Wednesday and Thursday should surely swap?

I've never heard of a forward moving roster. Our is all over the place. Not sure where you got that from.

 

[Desiro Boy]

I thought drivers have a forward moving roster.
That 15:50 start seems to be in the wrong place relative to Monday and likewise Wednesday and Thursday should surely swap?

It generally is.I find the roster a right mess and poorly thought out with and odd shifts bunged in where it suits.That's what we are paid extra for though.

 

[Class 170101]

If only!
If that were the case, who does the nights on Sunday and Mondays nights?
Also who does the 04:xx starts on Friday and Saturday mornings?

Into rest and from rest respectively I would have thought?

 

[Latecomer]

Hopefully these real world examples of shift patterns will make some posters think again. We all experience them as drivers but it isn't until you feel the fatigue of ever changing shift patterns that it really hits home. As said there is also the fact that we can moved 3 or 4 hoursfrom spare (depending on the notice period), so it can be hard to plan life outside work - in other words if I have 3 days listed as spare there is a whole 8 hour period covering 4 hrs either side of the 'spare' times that I have to blank out in my ASLEF diary.

These days being spare is a rarity at my depot and you pretty much know you will get marked up to the worst jobs because people know what jobs to book off (or go sick on), yes you guessed it, the high fatigue ones. I can only echo what other drivers have said that in productivity terms we are having much more squeezed out of us. My diagrams now have significantly reduced turnaround times with minimum breaks. We have less establishment drivers so there are fewer drivers covering more work. We are not asking people to pity us - we get paid well compared to some (please remember that most of us have worked other jobs outside the industry too), but don't knock us based on misinformation. Most people could not hack it. Even some that get through every stage of the recruitment process mess up when the reality hits home. Some people just can't maintain the concentration and lifestyle adjustments that are required to undertake the job safely.

 

[HH]

I studied stats at A level. I reckon I know what I'm talking about.

I studied it at University...

Are you more likely to throw Heads or Tails., or is it equal? Go on and ask yourself.

It depends on what you're throwing.

ASLEF are our Union. They are there to represent our views as drivers and to deal with our management. I and many of my colleagues do not want a 4 day week. They will ask me, not tell me. Remember that.

A 4-day week is official ASLEF Policy. Of course they won't force it on anyone, it's always down to the vote. However it is already the case at most companies. The fact that some still work a 5 day week, or some a 4 and a bit (like ex-Silverlink drivers at London Midland) doesn't change that fact.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only what I was told!

Most people probably don't even know. They just assume. I've looked at piles of T&Cs for office jobs, and I can't recall any that had a paid lunch break.

 

[Dave1987]

To those who say that we drivers have it easy. I finished at 23.00 on Saturday night, and I book on at 04.30 Monday morning with a "day off" on Sunday which is basically used to adjust from late nights to early mornings. Ow how good it must be to do 9-5 Monday-Friday and have a body clock that knows when it's supposed to be asleep or awake. Yes us drivers get paid well and have an enjoyable job but there are many downsides to it!

 

[Domh245]

Yes us drivers get paid well and have an enjoyable job but there are many downsides to it!

And even then, there are some drivers who claim not to enjoy it (thinking specifically of an SWT driver on these forums)

 

[HH]

If a job is really so easy and comfortable that it is overpaid then there will be no shortage of people lining up to do that job. In the case of train driving then if Peter Wilkinson is so right then it follows there will be no driver shortage - but I think there is !

The driver shortage is not because drivers aren't paid enough! Any TOC advertising driver jobs will get 10, 20 times as many applications as they need.

Part of the reason for the driver shortage is that drivers are very costly; they cost a lot to recruit, they cost a lot to train and they cost a lot to employ. I think it's a false economy to try and get away with a minimum number, but that's what many TOCs do.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To those who say that we drivers have it easy. I finished at 23.00 on Saturday night, and I book on at 04.30 Monday morning with a "day off" on Sunday which is basically used to adjust from late nights to early mornings. Ow how good it must be to do 9-5 Monday-Friday and have a body clock that knows when it's supposed to be asleep or awake. Yes us drivers get paid well and have an enjoyable job but there are many downsides to it!

Who said drivers have it easy?

That roster is scandalous, as is 455's. I presume 455's is on SWT and I'm surprised it is necessary there, on a busy suburban railway.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've never heard of a forward moving roster. Our is all over the place. Not sure where you got that from.

It's generally recognised as best practice to have each turn starting a bit later than the previous. This has the effect of giving you a longer break between shifts and therefore is better for fatigue.

This is also the main reason that ASLEF support a 4 day week - you get an extra rest day.

 

[ComUtoR]

To those who say that we drivers have it easy. I finished at 23.00 on Saturday night, and I book on at 04.30 Monday morning with a "day off" on Sunday which is basically used to adjust from late nights to early mornings.

A couple of ours for yours and everyone else's edification.

0558 (9hrs) start Sunday > 0008 (8hr 30min) finish Monday (42.28hr week)

0032 (9hrs) finish Saturday > 0435 Start Monday and that's going from a 43 hr late week onto a week of spare :/

Choo Chooooooo

 

[whoosh]

I have been rostered to work 21:00-06:00 Saturday, and then book on at 04:08 on the Monday. That was a quality Sunday off!


Those greedy Drivers at London Underground get a 30 minute UNPAID break, by the way. You know, because they are greedy, because the press has told us all they are.



I think we are losing track of what this thread is about. It is about lies and exaggerations which are deliberately creating misinformation for the public.
There is no such thing as a 'fire break' and Peter Wilkinson knows it. Raising a fire in steam loco was the job of a lower paid Engine Cleaner (paid less than a Fireman), and any topping up of water or coal was 'work' and not a 'break' or it wouldn't've got done, would it?

These days at some companies, 'prepping' (the checking of a train prior to it's entry into service) is done by a lesser paid Depot Driver, which allows Drivers to do more revenue-earning work. Prepping is still work though, not a break.
The introduction of Depot Drivers is another example of a negotiated increase of productivity of Drivers.

But Peter Wilkinson, or 'expert' Christian Wolmar (who has gone on about above inflation pay rises for Drivers without mentioning the details/strings attached) won't tell you about productivity.

What if didn't sign the route in BR days? I would have another Driver who did sign the route to accompany me and 'route conduct' me.
That's two drivers for one train.
What about now? I get bumped off my rostered job, 'revert to spare' with X hours movement, and can be given another job. The Driver who signs the route gets the job. Two drivers, two trains. Productivity and Flexibility.

But no, apparently according to some peoples' opinions (based on no facts) this wasn't negotiated - the Unions have just walked in every year and DEMANDED a pay rise and the companies just rolled over, didn't get any more productivity out of us. And we still get 'fire breaks'!


Misinformation and lies.

 

[Dave1987]

That roster is scandalous, as is 455's. I presume 455's is on SWT and I'm surprised it is necessary there, on a busy suburban railway.

Well it's all perfectly legal and in line with the conditions that the union has had to fight to get agreed. And this is why the union fights for conditions for drivers. Its not all about the headline salaries.

 

[Dave1987]

A couple of ours for yours and everyone else's edification.

0558 (9hrs) start Sunday > 0008 (8hr 30min) finish Monday (42.28hr week)

0032 (9hrs) finish Saturday > 0435 Start Monday and that's going from a 43 hr late week onto a week of spare :/

Choo Chooooooo

For your spare turns how many hours each way are they allowed to move your booking on time?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been rostered to work 21:00-06:00 Saturday, and then book on at 04:08 on the Monday. That was a quality Sunday off!

WOW that is bad. Is that part of the new night tube agreement that they are allowed to do that?

 

[ComUtoR]

For your spare turns how many hours each way are they allowed to move your booking on time?

+/- 3hrs and can be extended to maximum turn length. So if its a 7hr 35min spare turn you can be extended to 9hr 15mins

Until recently any extension was unpaid. It took many years to finally get paid overtime. It still cost us to get that overtime so I'm not sure of the overall long term impact it will have. So far it has been a short term gain.

I understand the complaints about lunch breaks etc and it often comes from those who consistently speak out against the unions but if anything it serves to highlight the importance of the trade unions.

 

[Dave1987]

+/- 3hrs and can be extended to maximum turn length. So if its a 7hr 35min spare turn you can be extended to 9hr 15mins

Until recently any extension was unpaid. It took many years to finally get paid overtime. It still cost us to get that overtime so I'm not sure of the overall long term impact it will have. So far it has been a short term gain.

I understand the complaints about lunch breaks etc and it often comes from those who consistently speak out against the unions but if anything it serves to highlight the importance of the trade unions.

Yup that's the same as us expect we can have turns extended up to 10 hrs. So if you are 07.00 spare you could have to work until 20.00, which means you just can't plan anything. I love the job which is why I am happy to put up with the caveats that go with it but hate this consistent image that drivers get paid £60k a year for an easy life. There is only one TOC that I know you get anywhere near that money and that is EuroStar. But they have to learn 6 different types of signalling and have to speak French fluently!

 

[Class 170101]

but hate this consistent image that drivers get paid £60k a year for an easy life. There is only one TOC that I know you get anywhere near that money and that is EuroStar.

I had look in the last week at salaries (I can't find the link now :-x) however Cross Country, Virgin West Coast and Virgin East Coast weren't far short of £60k.

 

[IKB]

I had look in the last week at salaries (I can't find the link now :-x) however Cross Country, Virgin West Coast and Virgin East Coast weren't far short of £60k.

Perhaps you were looking here?

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/companies/

It's not 100% up to date, but its a starter...

 

[HH]

I had look in the last week at salaries (I can't find the link now :-x) however Cross Country, Virgin West Coast and Virgin East Coast weren't far short of £60k.

Here's CrossCountry

As noted several times previously, T&Cs do vary quite a bit across the industry.

 

[ComUtoR]

I had look in the last week at salaries (I can't find the link now :-x) however Cross Country, Virgin West Coast and Virgin East Coast weren't far short of £60k.

Virgin are pushing £57k Cross Country £58k However; Arriva Wales are only pushing £44k

There is a growing disparity with pay and conditions across the entire Driving grade. To use the extremes to prove a point just shows how people want to twist the truth.

If the argument was about Southern's terms and conditions then he would of had a more valid point but this just came across as a politicised attack.

 

[headshot119]

Taken from the Aslef website and sorted into salary order smallest to largest...

• East Midlands Trains (Maintrain) £32,550.00
• DB Regio £35,065.00
• First Tram Operations £35,859.00
• Island Line £39,813.00
• Freightliner £42,835.00
• Scotrail (Abelio) £43,212.00
• Merseyrail £43,412.00
• Arriva Trains Wales £43,868.00
• Northern Rail (FNW) £44,019.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former WA £44,367.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former A £45,056.00
• DRS £45,345.00
• South West Trains £45,417.00
• First Great Western (West) £45,680.00
• Colas Rail Infrastructure Monitoring £45,695.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former GE £45,758.00
• First Great Western (LTV) £45,763.00
• East Midlands Trains (Central) £46,014.00
• East Midlands Trains (Mid-Mainline) £46,014.00
• Northern Rail (ATN) £46,660.00
• DB Schenker £47,000.00
• South Eastern £47,066.00
• London Midland (Central Trains) £47,500.00
• London Midland (Silverlink) £47,500.00
• Southern £47,500.00
• London Underground £48,133.00
• Grand Central £48,425.00
• First Transpennine Express £48,625.00
• Thameslink Great Northern £48,664.00
• First Hull Trains £48,672.00
• Freightliner Heavy Haul £49,011.00
• First Great Western (HSS) £49,613.00
• c2c £50,000.00
• London Overground (Former GA-WA) £50,000.00
• Tube Lines Limited £51,433.00
• Chiltern Railways £51,755.00
• GB Railfreight £53,902.00
• London Overground (Former Silverlink) £55,288.00
• Virgin(West Coast) £56,552.00
• Virgin Trains East Coast £56,967.00
• CrossCountry £57,674.00
• Eurostar £62,569.00

That gives an average wage of £47291.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Taken from the Aslef website and sorted into salary order smallest to largest...

• East Midlands Trains (Maintrain) £32,550.00
• DB Regio £35,065.00
• First Tram Operations £35,859.00
• Island Line £39,813.00
• Freightliner £42,835.00
• Scotrail (Abelio) £43,212.00
• Merseyrail £43,412.00
• Arriva Trains Wales £43,868.00
• Northern Rail (FNW) £44,019.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former WA £44,367.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former A £45,056.00
• DRS £45,345.00
• South West Trains £45,417.00
• First Great Western (West) £45,680.00
• Colas Rail Infrastructure Monitoring £45,695.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former GE £45,758.00
• First Great Western (LTV) £45,763.00
• East Midlands Trains (Central) £46,014.00
• East Midlands Trains (Mid-Mainline) £46,014.00
• Northern Rail (ATN) £46,660.00
• DB Schenker £47,000.00
• South Eastern £47,066.00
• London Midland (Central Trains) £47,500.00
• London Midland (Silverlink) £47,500.00
• Southern £47,500.00
• London Underground £48,133.00
• Grand Central £48,425.00
• First Transpennine Express £48,625.00
• Thameslink Great Northern £48,664.00
• First Hull Trains £48,672.00
• Freightliner Heavy Haul £49,011.00
• First Great Western (HSS) £49,613.00
• c2c £50,000.00
• London Overground (Former GA-WA) £50,000.00
• Tube Lines Limited £51,433.00
• Chiltern Railways £51,755.00
• GB Railfreight £53,902.00
• London Overground (Former Silverlink) £55,288.00
• Virgin(West Coast) £56,552.00
• Virgin Trains East Coast £56,967.00
• CrossCountry £57,674.00
• Eurostar £62,569.00

That gives an average wage of £47291.

I can tell you for definite that at least one of those salaries is two years out of date. I'd expect more of them to be wrong as well.

 

[headshot119]

I can tell you for definite that at least one of those salaries is two years out of date. I'd expect more of them to be wrong as well.

That doesn't surprise me, but it's the only information I could find online.

It does illustrate the point though that most drivers are on no where near £60k

 

[Jamesb1974]

That doesn't surprise me, but it's the only information I could find online.

It does illustrate the point though that most drivers are on no where near £60k

Indeed. Salaries are often used as ammunition to garner support for reforms and changes to working practices. I'm just surprised we haven't had a pointless comparison between a driver's salary and that of a Nurse/Junior Doctor/Teacher.....etc etc etc etc.

 

[ScouserGirl]

Taken from the Aslef website and sorted into salary order smallest to largest...

• East Midlands Trains (Maintrain) £32,550.00
• DB Regio £35,065.00
• First Tram Operations £35,859.00
• Island Line £39,813.00
• Freightliner £42,835.00
• Scotrail (Abelio) £43,212.00
• Merseyrail £43,412.00
• Arriva Trains Wales £43,868.00
• Northern Rail (FNW) £44,019.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former WA £44,367.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former A £45,056.00
• DRS £45,345.00
• South West Trains £45,417.00
• First Great Western (West) £45,680.00
• Colas Rail Infrastructure Monitoring £45,695.00
• Greater Anglia (Abelio) Former GE £45,758.00
• First Great Western (LTV) £45,763.00
• East Midlands Trains (Central) £46,014.00
• East Midlands Trains (Mid-Mainline) £46,014.00
• Northern Rail (ATN) £46,660.00
• DB Schenker £47,000.00
• South Eastern £47,066.00
• London Midland (Central Trains) £47,500.00
• London Midland (Silverlink) £47,500.00
• Southern £47,500.00
• London Underground £48,133.00
• Grand Central £48,425.00
• First Transpennine Express £48,625.00
• Thameslink Great Northern £48,664.00
• First Hull Trains £48,672.00
• Freightliner Heavy Haul £49,011.00
• First Great Western (HSS) £49,613.00
• c2c £50,000.00
• London Overground (Former GA-WA) £50,000.00
• Tube Lines Limited £51,433.00
• Chiltern Railways £51,755.00
• GB Railfreight £53,902.00
• London Overground (Former Silverlink) £55,288.00
• Virgin(West Coast) £56,552.00
• Virgin Trains East Coast £56,967.00
• CrossCountry £57,674.00
• Eurostar £62,569.00

That gives an average wage of £47291.

I take it first great western hss is the high speed service?

 

[Domh245]

I take it first great western hss is the high speed service?

Yes, HSS are the high speed services (the original FGW if you will), LTV are London Thames Valley (ex Thames Trains) and then West are the west of england services (ex Wessex)

Can anyone fill me in on what EMT (maintrain) is however?

 

[Railengineer]

Absolute load of drivel. Drivers are a long, long, long way away from pricing themselves out of the market.

If nothing else, drivers don't get pay raises for nothing (although the very stupid in society who blindly believe what they read in the press think we do). Generally productivity increases keep well in line with pay rises. I'm certainly worked far harder now than I was 3 years ago but my pay certainly hasn't increased to the same extent.

As for getting rid of drivers, welcome to the real world. It's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone on here.

I wouldn't say that, I would say not within the next 15-20 years anyway, so those who're 21 and just passing out for driving, may well see it in their careers, especially on the high speed lines out of Padd, Euston & The Cross.

Unlikely for the more complex mid distance lines like to Portsmouth/Weymouth/Sarum & Exeter.

The non electrified lines with leaver frame boxes and semaphores and one car platforms is the next automated railway? Put down the magazine

Some interesting responses...most of which do rather depend how old you are today and clearly there are many dinosaurs using this site (including me!).
However, if today a plane can fly itself half way around the world on auto pilot (including auto-land) then why can't a train do a few hundred miles without a 'driver' in 10 years time? I did say it would take a few years but the 'driver' job is gradually being de-skilled by technology. So maybe they will keep something 'squishy' up front but it will only be for peace of mind.

ETCS is being brought in on Thameslink (class 700) right now and anyone who doesn't believe me about the Norfolk lines watch the press after Easter and I will post a 'I told you so' statement!

 

[ScouserGirl]

Yes, HSS are the high speed services (the original FGW if you will), LTV are London Thames Valley (ex Thames Trains) and then West are the west of england services (ex Wessex)

Can anyone fill me in on what EMT (maintrain) is however?

I though it did mean high speed service thanks

 

[Jamesb1974]

Some interesting responses...most of which do rather depend how old you are today and clearly there are many dinosaurs using this site (including me!).
However, if today a plane can fly itself half way around the world on auto pilot (including auto-land) then why can't a train do a few hundred miles without a 'driver' in 10 years time? I did say it would take a few years but the 'driver' job is gradually being de-skilled by technology. So maybe they will keep something 'squishy' up front but it will only be for peace of mind.

ETCS is being brought in on Thameslink (class 700) right now and anyone who doesn't believe me about the Norfolk lines watch the press after Easter and I will post a 'I told you so' statement!

But neither ERTMS/ETCS are systems to replace the driver. They are cab signalling systems to remove the need for lineside signalling and associated infrastructure.

Modern aircraft may be able to fly themselves halfway around the world, but they still have flight crew onboard. Trains won't be any different.

If there is one grade that will definitely suffer as a result of new technology, it is going to be the traditional signaller in a signal box.

 

[highdyke]

That gives an average wage of £47291.

Both sides are spinning on this. Those salaries do not, in general, include overtime, Sundays, travel, pretty good holiday and pension entitlements.

The *average* driver probably does earn £60k.

Why is this an attack, why be ashamed? People have fought for these salaries aided and abetted by their unions.

ASLEF can equally be accused of attacking the government, management, the Tories in the press and ASLEF journal, claiming 'working men' on a paltry 50-60k are not on the side of the 'enemy' that is management. Even though many of the salaries are higher than many managers. In fact, higher than many salaries of university educated professionals across the wider economy and 3 times that of a bus driver who has similar responsibility.

The DFT claim the drivers are profiteering, the unions regularly claim TOCs profiteer - the profit margin is 2-4%.

The TOCs are short of drivers, and as it's been pointed out, this isn't the result of nobody being interested, more financial engineering. Equally the unions have cut deals that allows them to enjoy protection from the wider market.

Frankly its all spin and rhetoric. The real victims are the tax payer and fare payer, who have to continually put up with it whether they like it or not.

 

[Dave1987]

Some interesting responses...most of which do rather depend how old you are today and clearly there are many dinosaurs using this site (including me!).
However, if today a plane can fly itself half way around the world on auto pilot (including auto-land) then why can't a train do a few hundred miles without a 'driver' in 10 years time? I did say it would take a few years but the 'driver' job is gradually being de-skilled by technology. So maybe they will keep something 'squishy' up front but it will only be for peace of mind.

ETCS is being brought in on Thameslink (class 700) right now and anyone who doesn't believe me about the Norfolk lines watch the press after Easter and I will post a 'I told you so' statement!

Well you really are showing your naivety on this I'm afraid! Yes most commercial aircraft spend most of there flying time on autopilot but the automation is used to reduce pilot workload not replace the pilot! Yes certain aircraft can do a CAT 3b auto land but the crew need to have the correct certification and the airport and ILS equipment has to have the correct certification. Most approaches are flown down to about 1000ft above the ground using the automation to keep the pilot workload down and the last bit is mostly flown by hand. CAT 3b auto lands are mostly used when the weather is so bad the crew cannot see the runway environment and for practice to keep the crew competency up to date.

With regards to ECTS, that is in cab signalling not "driverless trains". All that is changing is the signalling on the side on the track will disappear along with TPWS and AWS equipment. And the only reason they are introducing it is because the powers that be think it will increase capacity on existing lines because trains can be closer together. And several of us have pointed out NR haven't even got rid of all the signal boxes they wanted to close and revert control to ROC's let alone introduce ECTS! And funnily enough all these new trains that are being ordered recently that will be around for the next 30 odd years all required the organic squishy bit at the front to drive them.

I'm not quite sure if you believe what you are posting or or part of the camp that hopes and preys for the demise of the driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there is one grade that will definitely suffer as a result of new technology, it is going to be the traditional signaller in a signal box.

Hmmm I'm not so sure. A signaller is still required for blocks/possessions, organise signalling of train during disruption, control level crossings etc etc. Signallers workload may be decreased but certainly don't see the role going any time soon.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Well you really are showing your naivety on this I'm afraid! Yes most commercial aircraft spend most of there flying time on autopilot but the automation is used to reduce pilot workload not replace the pilot! Yes certain aircraft can do a CAT 3b auto land but the crew need to have the correct certification and the airport and ILS equipment has to have the correct certification. Most approaches are flown down to about 1000ft above the ground using the automation to keep the pilot workload down and the last bit is mostly flown by hand. CAT 3b auto lands are mostly used when the weather is so bad the crew cannot see the runway environment and for practice to keep the crew competency up to date.

With regards to ECTS, that is in cab signalling not "driverless trains". All that is changing is the signalling on the side on the track will disappear along with TPWS and AWS equipment. And the only reason they are introducing it is because the powers that be think it will increase capacity on existing lines because trains can be closer together. And several of us have pointed out NR haven't even got rid of all the signal boxes they wanted to close and revert control to ROC's let alone introduce ECTS! And funnily enough all these new trains that are being ordered recently that will be around for the next 30 odd years all required the organic squishy bit at the front to drive them.

I'm not quite sure if you believe what you are posting or or part of the camp that hopes and preys for the demise of the driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hmmm I'm not so sure. A signaller is still required for blocks/possessions, organise signalling of train during disruption, control level crossings etc etc. Signallers workload may be decreased but certainly don't see the role going any time soon.

I was referring to the numbers of signallers, rather than the grade itself. As you well know, NR are keen to move to ROCs, so the long term future for the current numbers of bobbies isn't rosy. Certainly the role will remain, but perhaps not in the same numbers.