DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[Llanigraham]

I am intrigued by this - I have never known any office worker paid for their lunch breaks - I have worked in public and private sector for a wide range of employees. I presently work a 40 hour week which means roughly 9am to 6 pm with an unpaid hour for lunch although we dont as such work fixed hours

Many of my friends who work in offices work 0900 - 1700 (or the equivalent) with an hour for lunch and are on 39 hour contracts, and go home at 1600 on Fridays. Some of them finish even earlier on Fridays!
Employers typically are WAG, Powys CC, Aber Uni, and a couple of offices in Newtown, Welshpool or Llan'dod. Very few of them ever get offered overtime!!

 

[HH]

Many of my friends who work in offices work 0900 - 1700 (or the equivalent) with an hour for lunch and are on 39 hour contracts...

Lies, damn lies and facts...

This is in reality absolutely no different than if they were on 34 hours and an unpaid lunch break. My point is that the office staff who are quoted as 35 hour week, 9-5, are actually around for 40 hours. Your guys do get paid, just like drivers, but are there 39 hours a week, which averages 4 hours more than drivers.

Still plenty of places that (officially) work 9-5:30. In your terms that 42.5 hours a week.

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It really isn't that simple. We do not work on any kind of maximum 35hr week as its an average week.

Never said anything about maximums. Driver working varies a great deal from operator to operator and even from depot to depot.

It is no greener on this side than any other. You may say that most see it as a decent deal but how many of those people are prepared to make the sacrifices that come with it ?

I made precisely that point. It is quite certain that not everyone would want to work as a driver, even if they could.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Message to HH. Where's your evidence of drivers pushing for this 4 day week?

It's official ASLEF Policy!!! (and has been for many years). As is a 32 hour week now.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am intrigued by this - I have never known any office worker paid for their lunch breaks - I have worked in public and private sector for a wide range of employees. I presently work a 40 hour week which means roughly 9am to 6 pm with an unpaid hour for lunch although we dont as such work fixed hours

It's certain that most TOCs do not pay for lunch hours (I've worked at four that certainly didn't and know of several more). It's a fiddle of course - it allows them to say you work for 5 hours less than you really do. If a few employers are more honest, it doesn't mean that they pay any more!

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Quite!
And having checked I note that the clerical staff at NR get paid for their lunch and tea breaks, as they also do at ATW.
So, HH, we have provided evidence of our facts, so how about you providing yours?

Those are claims, not facts! Evidence requires confirmation on an external site.

Like this: http://www.thejobcrowd.com/employer/network-rail/working-hours which rather suggests that they work 9 hour days. Pay rates are certainly not 10 hours a week higher than similar jobs elsewhere: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/10846.aspx?JobSearchCriteria=%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c0%7c%7cFull+Time%7c%7c

 

[dk1]

Its shocking to hear some people don't get paid for their meal breaks. As traincrew we expect that at the very least & also to do the majority of our shopping & other social activities during the working day

 

[HH]

Well HH according to his dubious use of stats declares that I'm working a 3.3 day working week.

LOL. So much inaccuracy in so few words: I didn't use statistics, I used the T&Cs which can be found on ASLEF's website, and I specifically referred to Virgin West Coast.

And it is the average number of days worked per week by those drivers, or more correctly, for those that understand math, it is the mean.

 

[Railengineer]

Good discussion but why get worked up? Train Drivers are gradually pricing themselves out of business. Bonus for this bonus for that, bonus for operating windscreen wipers etc.
Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

 

[Minilad]

Good discussion but why get worked up? Train Drivers are gradually pricing themselves out of business. Bonus for this bonus for that, bonus for operating windscreen wipers etc.
Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

Any chance you could tell me what bonus for this and that I have had lately. Only the missus wants a new three piece so the extra would come in handy. Ta

 

[The Planner]

Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

Level 3? Dont make me laugh, we are miles from that yet and still a very long way from a significant influx of level 2, we still have a large programme of putting lights on sticks to do.

 

[6Gman]

Any chance you could tell me what bonus for this and that I have had lately. Only the missus wants a new three piece so the extra would come in handy. Ta

Are you not claiming your windscreen wiper bonus?

 

[Marklund]

Quite!
And having checked I note that the clerical staff at NR get paid for their lunch and tea breaks, as they also do at ATW.
So, HH, we have provided evidence of our facts, so how about you providing yours?

Well that's news to me with the clerical staff. Ours don't get paid lunch breaks.
0800-1600 5 days, with 1 hour unpaid lunch for the 35 hour week.

 

[Llanigraham]

Well that's news to me with the clerical staff. Ours don't get paid lunch breaks.

Only what I was told!

 

[Minilad]

Are you not claiming your windscreen wiper bonus?

Nope. Too busy claiming my horn blowing bonus to worry about it

 

[dk1]

Nope. Too busy claiming my horn blowing bonus to worry about it

I did a hydrostatic reset on a 170 today so heaven knows what windfall is coming my way.

Most AGA staff actually DID get a £500 bonus this month for meeting attendance etc targets during 2015. That will come in handy for us poor drivers what with the imminent automation of the Wherry Lines

 

[Dave1987]

Level 3? Dont make me laugh, we are miles from that yet and still a very long way from a significant influx of level 2, we still have a large programme of putting lights on sticks to do.

Indeed the last time I checked NR were still in the process of getting signal boxes that are still worked by levers closed and transferred to ROC's.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Another Anti-traincrew thread by the usual suspects (and I am not even a Driver). Used to make me laugh now I just look at threads like these with embarressment as its always by the same people its quite frankly laughable.

 

[Llanigraham]

Indeed the last time I checked NR were still in the process of getting signal boxes that are still worked by levers closed and transferred to ROC's.

My old Box has had it's life extended by 3 years before it gets moved to Cardiff.

My office working friends could not understand how we could run a signal box for 12 hours with no breaks, other than between trains. Trying to fit in loo visits and time to make and eat a breakfast and lunch, or an evening meal could be a challenge on most days. It is no wonder most mechanical signalmen end up over weight.

 

[driver_m]

LOL. So much inaccuracy in so few words: I didn't use statistics, I used the T&Cs which can be found on ASLEF's website, and I specifically referred to Virgin West Coast.

And it is the average number of days worked per week by those drivers, or more correctly, for those that understand math, it is the mean.

I studied stats at A level. I reckon I know what I'm talking about. You are a classic example of someone who twists things to suit themselves. Are you more likely to throw Heads or Tails., or is it equal? Go on and ask yourself.

ASLEF are our Union. They are there to represent our views as drivers and to deal with our management. I and many of my colleagues do not want a 4 day week. They will ask me, not tell me. Remember that.

I do a 5 day week. I will repeat and repeat this as it is a fact. I have one rest day a week and Sunday's do not count. They are facts. That is a 5 day week. In a 7 day week I typically work 5. Is that hard for your closed mind to understand?
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Whilst we are on about bonus payments, dare I mention Tilt bonus?

 

[IKB]

Good discussion but why get worked up? Train Drivers are gradually pricing themselves out of business. Bonus for this bonus for that, bonus for operating windscreen wipers etc.
Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

This is not really a thread about ATO, but the notion that the 'end is nigh' for the 'man in the front' is laughable. There will always be someone up front, whatever the technology. The mainline is not light-rail.

I recall reading that NR had Level 2 pencilled in for the Southern region sometime after 2030...that's after all the Intercity routes are done. Just look at the delays on the GWR electrification.

 

[Dave1987]

Good discussion but why get worked up? Train Drivers are gradually pricing themselves out of business. Bonus for this bonus for that, bonus for operating windscreen wipers etc.
Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

Do you actually believe what you are posting? All the latest disputes have been over TOCs trying to force through changes to working conditions that mean drivers cannot actually have a family life because the company can force them to work extra or move booking on/booking off times so drivers cannot plan anything just in case they are forced to work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is not really a thread about ATO, but the notion that the 'end is nigh' for the 'man in the front' is laughable. There will always be someone up front, whatever the technology. The mainline is not light-rail.

I recall reading that NR had Level 2 pencilled in for the Southern region sometime after 2030...that's after all the Intercity routes are done. Just look at the delays on the GWR electrification.

There was a long thread about train automation a while ago with some people claiming computers will be driving trains and that drivers won't be needed. That was until the facts off the matter were pointed out. The fact that signal boxes like Chippenham Junc still exist tells me that if full train automation is ever going to happen then I doubt it will happen in my career and I've got circa 35+ yrs left!

 

[A-driver]

Good discussion but why get worked up? Train Drivers are gradually pricing themselves out of business. Bonus for this bonus for that, bonus for operating windscreen wipers etc.
Technology is moving up fast, ERTMS/ETCS have the capability to make the man in the front less responsible so the end is nigh!
It will take a few years but drivers are very close to the downhill run now. The lines to Lowestoft and Yarmouth will be ERTMS only fairly quickly now (2019?) and possible that NR will be looking to put level 3 somewhere soon as well.

Absolute load of drivel. Drivers are a long, long, long way away from pricing themselves out of the market.

If nothing else, drivers don't get pay raises for nothing (although the very stupid in society who blindly believe what they read in the press think we do). Generally productivity increases keep well in line with pay rises. I'm certainly worked far harder now than I was 3 years ago but my pay certainly hasn't increased to the same extent.

As for getting rid of drivers, welcome to the real world. It's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone on here.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I wouldn't say that, I would say not within the next 15-20 years anyway, so those who're 21 and just passing out for driving, may well see it in their careers, especially on the high speed lines out of Padd, Euston & The Cross.

Unlikely for the more complex mid distance lines like to Portsmouth/Weymouth/Sarum & Exeter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If a job is really so easy and comfortable that it is overpaid then there will be no shortage of people lining up to do that job. In the case of train driving then if Peter Wilkinson is so right then it follows there will be no driver shortage - but I think there is !. One point I learned at a parents evening one time was that you are paid more for your brain than for your time - so get educated (or trained).

In the non driver world :-

Well I have worked in factories and offices for many years. In most cases my working week has been five days Monday-Friday. They have been 35 or 37.5 hours from what I recall - that's not including a lunch break.

I quite often work extra hours to finish things off. If I was writing a program then I wanted to get it out of my head into a rough outline before I went to bed.

My best example was 37.5 hours and a mandatory lunch break minimum of 30 minutes (which I think is a legal requirement). So that is a total of 40 hours per week. We had flexi-time but had to work core hours of 10:00-12:00 and 14:00-16:00 (it was a half days leave if you were not there for each of of those core hours). That meant up to 2 hours could be taken for lunch. You had to average 7.5 hours per day but obviously you could do 4 hours minimum one day and pay for it by working 11 hours on another day. Obviously there were no operational reasons for actual start/end times to be set in stone (compared to driving a train).

I did not get flexitime in every job and those tended to have fixed hours and the fixed lunch hour was included in the hours iirc.

I seldom got overtime.

Now as a train driver (which I have never been) :-

I should imagine that the hours worked have to be rigid. Except that the drivers employer has to add hours worked in reaction to missing drivers (sickness etc) !. Also an exact finishing time must be impossible as train services can run late. Obviously including some slack in a drivers schedule to allow flexibility would be an idea - but costs £.

From what drivers on here seem to be saying. A driver does not work the same hours every day. That surprises me given that the timetable is the same Mon-Fri for most services so only weekends would be different. This seems to be a killer given that the hours seem to vary significantly. A driver cannot wander to-from the loo as and when nature calls. So I would expect them to get paid more to cover those working conditions.

Generally I would put the drivers working patterns down as shift work but in the factories I worked in I seldom saw the hours jump about as much as they seem to for drivers.

Generally :-

One can argue a 37.5 hour week is the same as a 40 hour working week. If I got paid £12 per hour on a 37.5 hour week excluding breaks then that is the same as earning £11.25 per hour over 40 hours including five 30 minute lunch breaks.

I often wished I could work my weekly hours over four days rather than five so that I could avoid an extra days crap of commuting. It seems drivers might have that possibility (no saying they want it).

Shift work is well known to be hard on the employee and I am not even talking about the variable from day to day start/end times it appears drivers have ?.

Could be worse as my partner has been tupe'd into a subcontracted firm. Her hours went down from 37.5 to 30 hours. She is not even on the London living wage !. She has lost 20% of her LOW pay, so it makes a BIG dent in the point of her working. The people who make these decisions probably earn more in one day than she does in a week so can easier afford a 20% pay cut. She works in a kitchen so its not as easy on the body as my office jobs. Guess what - no union. So there are unfair things in all types of job (regardless of the office vs driver comparison).

 

[SPADTrap]

The non electrified lines with leaver frame boxes and semaphores and one car platforms is the next automated railway? Put down the magazine

 

[455driver]

FGW or GWR now.. The RMT obviously took action over IEP, this was inevitable as it was a risk to the future of the Train Manager grade. ASLEF are now rumoured to be heading for a dispute over harmonisation for drivers in the past few days. Not 100% what the story is but I'm sure it will come out soon.

Without going into too much detail, Management were supposed to table 2 proposals for harmonisation, they decided to table 5, none of which were in any way acceptable, ASLEF then tabled a proposal which was diametrically opposite to Managements proposals.
End of very short meeting.

From what drivers on here seem to be saying. A driver does not work the same hours every day. That surprises me given that the timetable is the same Mon-Fri for most services so only weekends would be different. This seems to be a killer given that the hours seem to vary significantly. A driver cannot wander to-from the loo as and when nature calls. So I would expect them to get paid more to cover those working conditions.

Generally I would put the drivers working patterns down as shift work but in the factories I worked in I seldom saw the hours jump about as much as they seem to for drivers.

The timetable is the same but the duty lengths are not, if we worked the same duty every weekday we could be on anything from 7 hours a day to 9hrs45 a day, 4 of those would either be a very short or very long week, so to balance it out we work 3 or 4 different shifts to get the hours near enough.

One of our worst weeks is-
Sun 15:50-23:50 (8.00) (you know the day we don't have to work, apparently )
Mon 14:00-22:40 (8.40)
Tue 14:00-23:00 (9.00)
Wed 22:30-06:31 ((8.01)
Thu 19:45-04:45 (9.00)
Fri RD (yep we finish work 4hrs45 minutes into our 'rest' day!
Sat RD

Also note the short turn around on Thursday, finishing at 06:31 and back in at 19:45, brilliant for fatigue!

 

[theironroad]

Without going into too much detail, Management were supposed to table 2 proposals for harmonisation, they decided to table 5, none of which were in any way acceptable, ASLEF then tabled a proposal which was diametrically opposite to Managements proposals.
End of very short meeting.

The timetable is the same but the duty lengths are not, if we worked the same duty every weekday we could be on anything from 7 hours a day to 9hrs45 a day, 4 of those would either be a very short or very long week, so to balance it out we work 3 or 4 different shifts to get the hours near enough.

One of our worst weeks is-
Sun 15:50-23:50 (8.00) (you know the day we don't have to work, apparently )
Mon 14:00-22:40 (8.40)
Tue 14:00-23:00 (9.00)
Wed 22:30-06:31 ((8.01)
Thu 19:45-04:45 (9.00)
Fri RD (yep we finish work 4hrs45 minutes into our 'rest' day!
Sat RD

Also note the short turn around on Thursday, finishing at 06:31 and back in at 19:45, brilliant for fatigue!

Lol @ 0631-1945 which is 13h14m rest, some of ours end up being 12h plus a few minutes, only barely meeting hidden. I will grant you that for nights it is pretty shi#e.

 

[Dave1987]

I wouldn't say that, I would say not within the next 15-20 years anyway, so those who're 21 and just passing out for driving, may well see it in their careers, especially on the high speed lines out of Padd, Euston & The Cross.

Unlikely for the more complex mid distance lines like to Portsmouth/Weymouth/Sarum & Exeter.

Are you talking about in cab signalling or full blown automation? Because the later isn't even on the horizon on the mainline. In cab signalling still has an organic squishy bit at the front, commonly known as a driver

 

[philthetube]

Without going into too much detail, Management were supposed to table 2 proposals for harmonisation, they decided to table 5, none of which were in any way acceptable, ASLEF then tabled a proposal which was diametrically opposite to Managements proposals.
End of very short meeting.

The timetable is the same but the duty lengths are not, if we worked the same duty every weekday we could be on anything from 7 hours a day to 9hrs45 a day, 4 of those would either be a very short or very long week, so to balance it out we work 3 or 4 different shifts to get the hours near enough.

One of our worst weeks is-
Sun 15:50-23:50 (8.00) (you know the day we don't have to work, apparently )
Mon 14:00-22:40 (8.40)
Tue 14:00-23:00 (9.00)
Wed 22:30-06:31 ((8.01)
Thu 19:45-04:45 (9.00)
Fri RD (yep we finish work 4hrs45 minutes into our 'rest' day!
Sat RD

Also note the short turn around on Thursday, finishing at 06:31 and back in at 19:45, brilliant for fatigue!

That week should be reported to CIRAS as an unsafe working system, it would score horribly on the fatigue index and I would be surprised if the toc would dare to continue with that rostering once it was officially noted, regardless of what CIRAS said.

 

[Class 170101]

One of our worst weeks is-
Sun 15:50-23:50 (8.00) (you know the day we don't have to work, apparently )
Mon 14:00-22:40 (8.40)
Tue 14:00-23:00 (9.00)
Wed 22:30-06:31 ((8.01)
Thu 19:45-04:45 (9.00)
Fri RD (yep we finish work 4hrs45 minutes into our 'rest' day!
Sat RD

I thought drivers have a forward moving roster.
That 15:50 start seems to be in the wrong place relative to Monday and likewise Wednesday and Thursday should surely swap?

 

[ComUtoR]

That week should be reported to CIRAS as an unsafe working system, it would score horribly on the fatigue index and I would be surprised if the toc would dare to continue with that rostering once it was officially noted, regardless of what CIRAS said.

A quick shufty through my roster pulls up our longest week at 43.57 with an SP turn leading into it. I think our shortest time between shifts is 12hr 4min.

I agree with 455's sentiment and will add that our night turn finishes at 07XX so that RD is almost worthless.

The fatigue index is a joke when you consider SP movements.

 

[ComUtoR]

I thought drivers have a forward moving roster.
That 15:50 start seems to be in the wrong place relative to Monday and likewise Wednesday and Thursday should surely swap?

Amazing how what happens in reality is far from the perceived "truth."

 

[455driver]

I thought drivers have a forward moving roster.

If only!
If that were the case, who does the nights on Sunday and Mondays nights?
Also who does the 04:xx starts on Friday and Saturday mornings?

That 15:50 start seems to be in the wrong place relative to Monday and likewise Wednesday and Thursday should surely swap?

They cant be swapped because there is nowhere else to put them in any of the links, believe me I have checked and the line above is the least worst option, I am glad I moved out of that link a while ago.