DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[Rhondda Rudie]

Inaccuracy with figures is nothing new for Barwell.He was carpeted for exceeding the legal spending limit for an election campaign in 2010

 

[moggie]

Wilkinson's specialist role appears limited to the financial structures of rail franchising and other structural business creations used elsewhere in the world. On these subjects he's probably rightly considered an authority.

However, when it comes to train driving, rail infrastructure systems / track engineering it's probable he knows diddly squat other than what he's told by others. Being told something is one thing. Making sense of it to form an informed understanding sufficient to drive policy is another.

Wise principals keep their thoughts and ignorances among trusted friends and colleagues private so that they may learn from their circle. Only fools and egotistical narcissist's spout out their ignorances loud for all to hear.

 

[the sniper]

In most jobs your lunch break is unpaid and while you are allowed to make a cup of tea you certainly don't have a specified break time. Are railway staff really that ignorant of what happens elsewhere?

I was talking about the nature of the breaks, as surely the complaint that 'drivers still have the same "fire break" rest stops as they did when trains were run on coal' wouldn't relate to something to do with pay? I presumed he has some issue with the nature of railway PNBs, the main noteworthy feature of which is that you have to have a booked one. It'd help if someone knew what a "fire break" actually is!

 

[ian959]

I get a paid 1/2 hr break. If I'm on a 9hr 15min diagram and I'm only getting a 1/2 hr break then I've worked 8hr 45mins

I would sell my soul for a 7hr day with a 1hr break

Is your 9 hour plus diagram driven every working day?

 

[TheManBehind]

In most jobs your lunch break is unpaid and while you are allowed to make a cup of tea you certainly don't have a specified break time. Are railway staff really that ignorant of what happens elsewhere?

Most other industries don't have legislation dictating PNBs to the extent the railway does either - and they're not always paid for. SWT they, GWR don't pay (at least) Conductors. Very different results in disruption though - SWT staff are more likely to take "minimum turnaround" 35 minute PNB and go out and work again; GWR staff - as they're not being paid - take the time available to them, and rightly so.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

In 30 years on the railway I've never heard the term "fire break".I'm struggling to see what Wilkinson is complaining about when it comes to breaks.I can only assume he expects train crew to cut their breaks short in the event of disruption.Very sensible !!! Does he really want someone starting as early as 4am in our case and working up to 10.5 hours without a break? He claims to be "passionate about improving services for passengers".It's a pity he's not as passionate about keeping them safe.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Wilkinson's specialist role appears limited to the financial structures of rail franchising

Given the DfT's recent record in rail franchising, I'm not sure "specialist" is quite the word I'd use to describe Mr Wilkinson.

But then he gets to trouser a quarter of a million notes every year, and I don't, so who's the idiot.

moggle]Only fools and egotistical narcissist's spout out their ignorances loud for all to hear

Fools and egotistical narcissists? Sounds like most of the Cabinet.

Like A-Driver, I have no doubt that this "faux pas" was anything other than entirely deliberate and considered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He claims to be "passionate about improving services for passengers".

He claims many things, but his track record shows the only thing he's passionate about is his offensively oversized pay packet.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Worth noting
A, The mental concentration involved in driving trains makes a PNB a necessity to mitigate against incidents.
B, How many jobs out there are so difficult for going to the toilet and having to plan toilet breaks so as to not get caught short or cause long term serious health problems due to holding it in so much over sustained periods of time? Although, judging by the dirty looks and even comments from passengers when I dare to visit the on train toilet if dwell time allows or if I'm desperate, verging on p***ing myself I should really use the option of wetting myself and I sincerely apologise for daring to indulge in the luxury of using a lavatory.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is your 9 hour plus diagram driven every working day?

In reality no. Rostering and diagrams are incredibly complex. When I first started the Max turn length was 9hr 45mins so 9hrs was a regular occurrence. Now we are Max turn of 9hr 15mins with the average turn at around 8hr 30mins. 8hr 30min with a 30min PNB still pushes your day to 8hrs working. That is far from a 7hr day 35hr week.

Those are basic raw facts and figures but the detailed reality is much worse and certainly a different picture to what gets painted by the media and uninformed onlookers. Take Rhondda's max day of 10.5hrs for a quick example.

"real world" comparisons are simply fallacious and so wide of the truth that they are often worthless. My previous employments all had fully paid 1hr lunch breaks with 2x 15minute paid breaks also. Only one previous employment didn't pay for lunch but that was part time and you rarely did an 8 hr shift.

The whole debate on breaks and working hours is worthy of a thread on its own because of the complexities of it. However as the point was brought up about "real world" comparisons. I reiterate. I'll happily sell my soul for 9-5, monday-friday, 7hr day 1hr lunch.

 

[Dave1987]

My job on Saturday has been extended to just shy of 10 hrs with Engineering work alterations. There is 40 mins compulsory overtime in that as well. With 1 PNB, ow sorry "fire break". Wonder if Mr Wilkinson feels I'm entitled to that break or whether I should be driving for nearly 10 hrs straight with no break at all.

 

[FordFocus]

numerous recent disputes on LU, FGW, ATW etc suggest the reality is more likely to be certain people on both sides looking for a fight rather than simply blaming one side or the other

I sense this is very much more from the company side. All the following has been covered in thousands of posts on this forum but let's recap.

LU - Announced Night Tube, no consultation with unions (despite requests) until 4 months before it was due to be implemented because LUL thought they could simply wave a few £ in the way of staff to accept a very poor offer to run night tube on very dubious rostering. Strikes went ahead and were well support and that was all of LULs making.

ATW - Pay deal eventually agreed, ASLEF gave a recommendation to vote 'yes' only for the ATW HR department to throw in an additional clause to extend the hours of working after the agreement, immediate dispute. ATW HR making.

FGW or GWR now.. The RMT obviously took action over IEP, this was inevitable as it was a risk to the future of the Train Manager grade. ASLEF are now rumoured to be heading for a dispute over harmonisation for drivers in the past few days. Not 100% what the story is but I'm sure it will come out soon.

TPE - Dispute now exists and ASLEF are balloting drivers because of the breach of agreements with regards to managers driving trains and the lack of consultation over Liverpool - Scotland services crewing arrangements.

 

[HH]

I get a paid 1/2 hr break. If I'm on a 9hr 15min diagram and I'm only getting a 1/2 hr break then I've worked 8hr 45mins

I would sell my soul for a 7hr day with a 1hr break

Selective reading. As I also noted, most office staff work many hours of unpaid overtime. They'd sell their souls to get paid for all the hours they worked.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In reality no. Rostering and diagrams are incredibly complex. When I first started the Max turn length was 9hr 45mins so 9hrs was a regular occurrence. Now we are Max turn of 9hr 15mins with the average turn at around 8hr 30mins. 8hr 30min with a 30min PNB still pushes your day to 8hrs working. That is far from a 7hr day 35hr week.

But it's still a 35 hour week, nevertheless. And it was drivers who pushed for a 4 day week, rather than 5. Simple math should tell you that means the average day will be longer.

You're also misrepresenting the 35 hour week. It's actually a 40 hour week with an obligatory 1 hour a day PNB (which most people work partly or wholly through for no extra money). to put it on a par with your job.

So, for being at work for half an hour more, you work a day less. Most wouldn't see that as such a bad deal.

 

[Dave1987]

Selective reading. As I also noted, most office staff work many hours of unpaid overtime. They'd sell their souls to get paid for all the hours they worked.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

I was watching Business Live on the Beeb News channel the other morning and they had a piece on the fact a lot of office based workers are working from home 1-2 days per week now. Many office based workers have the option to take short days or flexi time as long as their work is completed on time. So that's quite disingenuous.

 

[A-driver]

Selective reading. As I also noted, most office staff work many hours of unpaid overtime. They'd sell their souls to get paid for all the hours they worked.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But it's still a 35 hour week, nevertheless. And it was drivers who pushed for a 4 day week, rather than 5. Simple math should tell you that means the average day will be longer.

You're also misrepresenting the 35 hour week. It's actually a 40 hour week with an obligatory 1 hour a day PNB (which most people work partly or wholly through for no extra money). to put it on a par with your job.

So, for being at work for half an hour more, you work a day less. Most wouldn't see that as such a bad deal.

Why do you constantly feel the need to try and compare train driving to other jobs? It's an utterly pointless thing to do and proves absolutely nothing!

You can't even begin to compare train driving to office work. They are so different. Comparing anything at all-pay, working environment, overtime etc is just pointless. Train drivers can't really be compared to any other Job-and many other jobs can't be compared to others either so please end this obsession with trying to find comparisons. It's getting very, very boring now and is proving nothing at all.

Plus, if they would seriously sell their souls as you say, why don't they all apply to become a train driver so they can get paid for the OT? I suspect it's because train driving is not the brilliant job you are trying to make out. It's a lot of hard and boring work.

I was watching Business Live on the Beeb News channel the other morning and they had a piece on the fact a lot of office based workers are working from home 1-2 days per week now. Many office based workers have the option to take short days or flexi time as long as their work is completed on time. So that's quite disingenuous.

Shhh, he's trying to prove train drivers have it far too easy. Don't put facts or obstacles in his way!

 

[6Gman]

My father and I both worked on the railway.

He was a driver (eventually, after 19 years service); I worked in an office.

My lunchtime break was unpaid but my morning and afternoon (untimed) tea breaks were in paid time. (In early days we had the services of a tealady who brought it to our offices!) Staff who smoked were (post office smoking ban) allowed to wander off for a fag in paid time. I could go to the toilet pretty well whenever I wanted.

My father's mid-shift mealbreak was paid - but could only be taken at the allotted time. And it also had to cover any other "physical needs".

I certainly know who I think had the better deal!

Incidentally, in steam days there were no "fire breaks" and shovelling coal is irrelevant to drivers' conditions. The fireman shovelled the coal!

The guy is talking nonsense.

 

[Llanigraham]

Selective reading. As I also noted, most office staff work many hours of unpaid overtime.(1) They'd sell their souls to get paid for all the hours they worked.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But it's still a 35 hour week, nevertheless. And it was drivers who pushed for a 4 day week, rather than 5. Simple math should tell you that means the average day will be longer.

You're also misrepresenting the 35 hour week. It's actually a 40 hour week with an obligatory 1 hour a day PNB (which most people work partly or wholly through for no extra money). to put it on a par with your job. (2)

So, for being at work for half an hour more, you work a day less. Most wouldn't see that as such a bad deal.

(1) And you have evidence of that? I know of plenty of office workers around here who never work more than their hours and never get offered overtime.

(2) Have you bothered to read what the drivers have said about PNB's? All the office staff I know can go to the toilet when they like, have access to a drinks machine when they like, and the smokers can even go and pollute themselves when they like within reason.

I suggest that you do not have much idea about how drivers (and signallers) work!!

 

[HH]

(1) And you have evidence of that? I know of plenty of office workers around here who never work more than their hours and never get offered overtime.

LOL, I wasn't aware we were in court. I have the evidence of my own eyes.

(2) Have you bothered to read what the drivers have said about PNB's? All the office staff I know can go to the toilet when they like, have access to a drinks machine when they like, and the smokers can even go and pollute themselves when they like within reason.

Have YOU read what I've written? Clearly not, because I made very similar points a post or two back. We could add that drivers have spare turns that they don't always work, which is why you will see things like pool tables at some depots. The jobs have their own advantages and disadvantages, like I said.

I suggest that you do not have much idea about how drivers (and signallers) work!!

I'm sure that I have a far better idea than you how drivers work. Have you even worked in the industry?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was watching Business Live on the Beeb News channel the other morning and they had a piece on the fact a lot of office based workers are working from home 1-2 days per week now. Many office based workers have the option to take short days or flexi time as long as their work is completed on time. So that's quite disingenuous.

Working from home has increased, but it's still a minority. And they still are expected to work - the main advantage is losing the commute time, which for London-based workers at least is ever-increasing as they are forced further out by the cost of housing.

The only office based workers that I'm aware of who are on flexi-time are civil servants. There may be others; office-based jobs do vary a lot and some are easier than others. But the easier ones usually pay less.

So, nothing disingenuous at all. Some drivers have to work harder than others as well.

 

[Llanigraham]

LOL, I wasn't aware we were in court. I have the evidence of my own eyes.

In other words you have no evidence at all!

Have YOU read what I've written? Clearly not, because I made very similar points a post or two back. We could add that drivers have spare turns that they don't always work, which is why you will see things like pool tables at some depots. The jobs have their own advantages and disadvantages, like I said.

Yes I have read what you have written, and it confirms that you have no idea what you are talking about, and have no experience of working on the railway, but are willing to criticise whatever.

I'm sure that I have a far better idea than you how drivers work. Have you even worked in the industry?

Do you know what a "bobby" is?
Yes I have worked in the industry, and have plenty of experience of what the work of a driver entails.

 

[HH]

I was talking about the nature of the breaks, as surely the complaint that 'drivers still have the same "fire break" rest stops as they did when trains were run on coal' wouldn't relate to something to do with pay? I presumed he has some issue with the nature of railway PNBs, the main noteworthy feature of which is that you have to have a booked one. It'd help if someone knew what a "fire break" actually is!

There is no such thing; I have no idea what he meant by that. I was merely trying to correct the wrong impressions from previous posts.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In other words you have no evidence at all!

You're making straw men. What evidence should I have? What evidence do you have?

Yes I have read what you have written, and it confirms that you have no idea what you are talking about, and have no experience of working on the railway, but are willing to criticise whatever.

I haven't been criticising anything! And I have over 20 years experience on the railway. On the operator side, not the track.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why do you constantly feel the need to try and compare train driving to other jobs? It's an utterly pointless thing to do and proves absolutely nothing!

You can't even begin to compare train driving to office work. They are so different. Comparing anything at all-pay, working environment, overtime etc is just pointless. Train drivers can't really be compared to any other Job-and many other jobs can't be compared to others either so please end this obsession with trying to find comparisons. It's getting very, very boring now and is proving nothing at all.

Plus, if they would seriously sell their souls as you say, why don't they all apply to become a train driver so they can get paid for the OT? I suspect it's because train driving is not the brilliant job you are trying to make out. It's a lot of hard and boring work.

I'm not constantly comparing. I have tried to correct misleading posts by others. I shall continue to do so. No-one has been comparing the jobs; they have been comparing the number of hours worked.

Driver job applications far exceed the number of places, as you well know.

 

[ComUtoR]

Selective reading. As I also noted, most office staff work many hours of unpaid overtime. They'd sell their souls to get paid for all the hours they worked.

Not selective reading at all. Maths is fun though and both examples misrepresent what happens in reality.

But it's still a 35 hour week, nevertheless. And it was drivers who pushed for a 4 day week, rather than 5. Simple math should tell you that means the average day will be longer.

It really isn't that simple. We do not work on any kind of maximum 35hr week as its an average week. That means you can have a 46hr week but even then that is still maths misrepresenting the reality. We are both misrepresenting the reality because raw figures just cannot convey the real hard truth to what happens on the ground. I have worked outside the industry so when people start pulling "facts" about lunch breaks etc I am well aware of the truth behind that too.

So, for being at work for half an hour more, you work a day less. Most wouldn't see that as such a bad deal.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

It is no greener on this side than any other. You may say that most see it as a decent deal but how many of those people are prepared to make the sacrifices that come with it ? I however; am a happy little cow and will chew the cud on this side till the flock leaves for home.

As I mentioned. Working hours are very complex and worthy of a discussion of its own. I think the closest "realworld™" analogy that could work is the Bus/coach industry.

 

[driver_m]

Message to HH. Where's your evidence of drivers pushing for this 4 day week? I work st a depot with a 5 day week and no one here wants to go to 4 days. The rest day pattern is better. I'm with Llanigraham on this one. Seeing as he's a signalman I'd reckon he knows what he's talking about. Incidentally our PNB's are for half an hour (or 2 lots of 20m if the job is of a certain length and a 30m doesn't fit easily). It's other bits such as mobilising and disposing that will stretch out an actual break length.

As for your comments about pool tables, they are provided by things like staff welfare committees where we chip in a small amount per month to improve our facilities, or vending machines, bandits, pool tables, which are open to all staff at a depot such as RPis,caterers etc. I'll make sure you're not trying to represent us which is how it appears so far.

 

[NSEFAN]

What evidence should I have? What evidence do you have?

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you can't be surprised that when you post it on a public forum that people call you out for it when you don't want to back it up with any evidence.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

After reading HH's comments on breaks I asked half a dozen friends who work in different offices in Cardiff about theirs,all of whom said they were paid for their lunch breaks.Not a scientific study or a large sample size but instructive nonetheless.

 

[Llanigraham]

After reading HH's comments on breaks I asked half a dozen friends who work in offices in different offices in Cardiff about theirs,all of whom said they were paid for their lunch breaks.Not a scientific study or a large sample size but instructive nonetheless.

Quite!
And having checked I note that the clerical staff at NR get paid for their lunch and tea breaks, as they also do at ATW.
So, HH, we have provided evidence of our facts, so how about you providing yours?

 

[furnessvale]

Quite!
And having checked I note that the clerical staff at NR get paid for their lunch and tea breaks, as they also do at ATW.
So, HH, we have provided evidence of our facts, so how about you providing yours?

Well done TSSA. Conditions for salaried staff have certainly improved since I was a junior draughtsman for BR.

39 minutes for lunch, unpaid!

 

[driver_m]

Quite!
And having checked I note that the clerical staff at NR get paid for their lunch and tea breaks, as they also do at ATW.
So, HH, we have provided evidence of our facts, so how about you providing yours?

I think we'll be waiting some time for an answer to that.

 

[Class 170101]

I see a lot of people are banging on about us and our 'barbecue' Sundays when the drivers are not happy but can anyone tell me precisely how many TOCs have suffered a 'barbecue' Sunday over the last couple of years?
I cant think of any, although there have been a few where drivers who were not booked to work on a Sunday have refused to work their day off to help the company out but that would be the same whether Sundays were inside or not so isnt relevant!

Both TSGN and LM have had this kind of dispute in the last 12 months. TSGN spectacularly so just before Christmas 2015.

Message to HH. Where's your evidence of drivers pushing for this 4 day week? I work st a depot with a 5 day week and no one here wants to go to 4 days. The rest day pattern is better.

TPE - isn't this part of the dispute noted further up thread?

 

[driver_m]

Both TSGN and LM have had this kind of dispute in the last 12 months. TSGN spectacularly so just before Christmas 2015.


TPE - isn't this part of the dispute noted further up thread?

Well HH according to his dubious use of stats declares that I'm working a 3.3 day working week. I work a 5 day week. No one uses holidays and such to skew figures unless it suits them. A teacher works a 5 day week. We know they go above and beyond and aren't thanked for it but they work broadly mon-fri.

 

[deltic]

After reading HH's comments on breaks I asked half a dozen friends who work in different offices in Cardiff about theirs,all of whom said they were paid for their lunch breaks.Not a scientific study or a large sample size but instructive nonetheless.

I am intrigued by this - I have never known any office worker paid for their lunch breaks - I have worked in public and private sector for a wide range of employees. I presently work a 40 hour week which means roughly 9am to 6 pm with an unpaid hour for lunch although we dont as such work fixed hours

 

[Stow]

(1) And you have evidence of that? I know of plenty of office workers around here who never work more than their hours and never get offered overtime.

(2) Have you bothered to read what the drivers have said about PNB's? All the office staff I know can go to the toilet when they like, have access to a drinks machine when they like, and the smokers can even go and pollute themselves when they like within reason.

I suggest that you do not have much idea about how drivers (and signallers) work!!

Well, according to the TUC (similar info from other unions and ACAS easily available) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rker-do-each-week-a-7hrs-18-mins-8516074.html