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DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

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the sniper

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Some drivers do work three days a week average, but they're on job share and get paid pro rata. Or maybe he was averaging out the whole year including holiday? Someone do the maths.

But surely this is true of almost any job? I'd say job shares and get paid pro rata (which I'd say is pretty rare) are more common in other industries and are available in most industries.

Some drivers do have conditions left over from BR (and steam) days. Most have been modified since, and the lengths of breaks only ever get shorter, but technically they do have their roots in steam era agreements.

I still don't know what a "fire break" is to know if it still exists? Where I am the PNBs are entirely unremarkable and comparable or worse than breaks in other jobs I know of in other industries... The only thing of note about railway PNBs that I can think of is that you have to have them, that you can't/should't just work through them. This has nothing to do with steam trains though, and I very much doubt the requirement to have a break will ever be removed, so I don't know what he was getting at...
 
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Mojo

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This is starting to get worrying.

Last year, a week-long all line rover nearly went down the pan when the RMT decided to hold a strike during the same week (the strike was eventually called off). I'm I'm the hotel booking phase for this June's holiday and I don't want to be practically playing chicken with the unions this time around...

Staff aren't balloted for industrial action just because someone (who doesn't even work for an employer of drivers) makes a comment at an obscure public meeting.
 

HH

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I still don't know what a "fire break" is to know if it still exists? Where I am the PNBs are entirely unremarkable and comparable or worse than breaks in other jobs I know of in other industries... The only thing of note about railway PNBs that I can think of is that you have to have them, that you can't/should't just work through them. This has nothing to do with steam trains though, and I very much doubt the requirement to have a break will ever be removed, so I don't know what he was getting at...

In most jobs your lunch break is unpaid and while you are allowed to make a cup of tea you certainly don't have a specified break time. Are railway staff really that ignorant of what happens elsewhere?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Notice how he's inflated the already inflated figure, and further eludes to 'lazyness' with the emotive "back-breaking labour" line.

Many drivers do earn £80k+. OK it's only on certain TOCs and only some drivers (working lots of RDs), but I've seen drivers on £100k.
 
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DarloRich

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As far as the public are concerned, they now believe we are on £60k for a 3 day week, all the apologies in the world wont change that fact!

It is a carefully crafted first punch in round one of a fifteen round match and is designed to get the public on the side of Government while they take on the nasty, overpaid, militant, lazy train drivers!

This. Very much this!

This is starting to get worrying.

Last year, a week-long all line rover nearly went down the pan when the RMT decided to hold a strike during the same week (the strike was eventually called off). I'm I'm the hotel booking phase for this June's holiday and I don't want to be practically playing chicken with the unions this time around...

what are you talking about? ASLEF wont have the ballots printed and the braziers fueled up in the back of this

In most jobs your lunch break is unpaid and while you are allowed to make a cup of tea you certainly don't have a specified break time. Are railway staff really that ignorant of what happens elsewhere?

no - but because it happens elsewhere it should happen here?

Working in an office is a slightly different environment with less responsibility for safety.
 
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HH

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Some drivers do work three days a week average, but they're on job share and get paid pro rata. Or maybe he was averaging out the whole year including holiday? Someone do the maths.

Virgin West Coast (and I think XCountry, who certainly used to share the same T&Cs) Drivers are rostered 4 weeks on, 1 week off. And then they get 5 weeks rostered leave + 10 days floating. By my calculation that's 173 days a year, which is 3.3 days a week. Not 3, no, but much closer to 3 than 4, so you can see how he got to 3.

So, yes, what Wilko claimed is rhetoric, but there is a nub of truth to it, like all the best lies.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
no - but because it happens elsewhere it should happen here?

Working in an office is a slightly different environment with less responsibility for safety.

I never said it should. I merely said what happens elsewhere - and it's not just office workers who don't get paid for lunch breaks.
 
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notadriver

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Surely if you start taking into account people's rostered leave - especially teachers and MPs who get months off at a time, they barely do 4 days a week themselves ?
 

HH

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Surely if you start taking into account people's rostered leave - especially teachers and MPs who get months off at a time, they barely do 4 days a week themselves ?

Teachers and MPs do get lots of leave. However, they are not typical of the working population. Teachers and MPs also generally work many hours of unpaid overtime during their working weeks.
 

notadriver

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Teachers and MPs do get lots of leave. However, they are not typical of the working population. Teachers and MPs also generally work many hours of unpaid overtime during their working weeks.


I would then say train drivers are not typical of the population either. There are far less train drivers (c30000) than there are teachers.
 

DarloRich

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I never said it should. I merely said what happens elsewhere - and it's not just office workers who don't get paid for lunch breaks.

Oh I know - however I have always had office jobs and have always had a paid lunch break.
 

HH

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I would then say train drivers are not typical of the population either. There are far less train drivers (c30000) than there are teachers.

That was my point! I'm not sure where you're going with this...
 

notadriver

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I guess I'm a bit perplexed at why train drivers have been singled out as a target when there are relatively so few of us in comparison to other industries. I've not heard bus or truck drivers discussed in the media this way.
 
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HH

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Oh I know - however I have always had office jobs and have always had a paid lunch break.

Have you? Standard office hours are 9 to 5 or 9 to 5:30 with a 1 hour lunch break. Take the former - that's 8 hours, take away 1 for a lunch break and it's 7 hours. 7 x 5 = 35, which is your 35 hour week. If you work less than this please tell me what your job is!
 

DarloRich

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Have you? Standard office hours are 9 to 5 or 9 to 5:30 with a 1 hour lunch break. Take the former - that's 8 hours, take away 1 for a lunch break and it's 7 hours. 7 x 5 = 35, which is your 35 hour week. If you work less than this please tell me what your job is!

I wish I did standard hours. Currently closer to that 35 hour magic number ( although I still easily do an extra day a week time wise gratis) but previous jobs were easily 12/13 and more hours in the office.

(and that was if working in my office - it was longer if on the road to the satellite locations with no travel time etc - it worked out cheaper for the bosses to pay your lunch rather than other options especially as we ended up working 9.9 out of 10 of them anyway!)
 
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HH

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I guess I'm a bit perplexed at why train drivers have been singled out as a target when there are relatively so few of us in comparison to other industries.

Drivers were singled out by Wilko who happens to be in charge of Rail at the DfT. Driver costs are a significant part of the cost of the railways. I doubt that there's another group of staff that cost as much.

As to why he's targeting drivers, well he could be gearing up for a fight, or he could just be mouthing off. Only time will tell, but I hope and expect it's the latter.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wish I did standard hours. Currently closer to that 35 hour magic number ( although I still easily do an extra day a week time wise gratis) but previous jobs were easily 12/13 and more hours in the office.

Well that was my point. Office jobs these days generally come with an expectation to work unpaid overtime. Probably why a lot of people are easily stirred when driver pay/T&Cs are discussed. OFC they conveniently forget that drivers work shifts, unsocial hours, regular weekend working, are stuck in a train cab for long periods, etc. Most people find it hard to see beyond their own nose...
 
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DarloRich

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Well that was my point. Office jobs these days generally come with an expectation to work unpaid overtime. Probably why a lot of people are easily stirred when driver pay/T&Cs are discussed. OFC they conveniently forget that drivers work shifts, unsocial hours, regular weekend working, are stuck in a train cab for long periods, etc. Most people find it hard to see beyond their own nose...

Indeed - however I have learnt in life that to focus on what others get paid simply leads to anger, frustration and madness. It is better to focus on your job and make that as good as you can.

I have worked in places where jealousy or envy over wages leads to all kinds of unpleasantness and a terrible working environment.
 

nw1

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Can totally sympathise here, disturbing news indeed. I myself am a medical student and the future is certainly a more colourful picture now.. some examples from our new contract included an error stating 48 hour working weekend.. turned out to be an error, but disconcerting all the same!

We really need not only a change of government but a change of ethics of all governments so they actually care about public-sector-ish (and I know the railways are not really public-sector anymore, but you get my drift) workers. This government is particularly bad though - and the 2015 election was the biggest travesty of my lifetime. Train drivers, junior doctors and others - all being bullied by this Tory government. The Tories don't care about anyone other than members of their own clique. It would be so easy to get rid of them - just don't put an X against any Tory candidate at any election - but do we do it? No :(
 
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Llanigraham

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I never said it should. I merely said what happens elsewhere - and it's not just office workers who don't get paid for lunch breaks.

Lucky they don't work in single manned signalboxes then, when there are NO breaks for anything, during what can often be a 12 hour shift!! <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely if you start taking into account people's rostered leave - especially teachers and MPs who get months off at a time, they barely do 4 days a week themselves ?

Oh dear!!
I suggest you talk to some teachers about the amount of work they have to do during their supposedly long summer break!!
 

whoosh

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I think what the upper classes want is to chip away at any decent pay and conditions any working person (working or middle class) has. Then when we're all having to work 48 hours over 6 days a week, they'll tell us that with our statutory 4 weeks annual leave, and 8 days bank holidays ( the lowest in Europe), how lazy we are that we "only work 25% of the time".
 

Tetchytyke

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It is a carefully crafted first punch in round one of a fifteen round match and is designed to get the public on the side of Government while they take on the nasty, overpaid, militant, lazy train drivers!

Of course it is. These people don't just "mouth off", they don't get into the positions that they are in without having guile and low native cunning.

We're seeing the same thing with the doctors, with Jeremy C..Hunt misrepresenting statistics and, when that isn't enough, simply inventing them. It's extending to the rest of the NHS; my partner and her colleagues get blamed for the waiting lists in their mental health trust, nurses are blamed for short-staffing in hospitals, and the cost of locum staff is blamed on the bank staff and not the agencies charging the huge commission.

We see it in education, where any school that doesn't get above average results is labelled as failing and taken over by an academy. And teachers are "lazy" for having a summer holiday, even though they don't get paid all that much (starting salary £23,000), have leave at any other time of year and clock up huge amounts of unpaid overtime, including compulsory staff meetings that do not fall within their paid hours.

Tube drivers have had this for years, "fifty grand to sit on their arse" whilst Johnson's appointee TfL bosses pocket high six-figure bonuses every year.

They say it because people lap it up. Instead of sitting down and wondering why they get screwed over by their bosses, everyone jumps on the politics of envy and labels anyone who does get treated properly as "greedy" and "lazy".
 

Rhondda Rudie

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This is starting to get worrying.

Last year, a week-long all line rover nearly went down the pan when the RMT decided to hold a strike during the same week (the strike was eventually called off). I'm I'm the hotel booking phase for this June's holiday and I don't want to be practically playing chicken with the unions this time around...

Did you read Wilkinson's comments?The only one looking to provoke industrial strife is him.
 

furnessvale

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Gavin Barwell. Here's he his reporting how the meeting went:

http://www.gavinbarwell.com/blog.asp?BlogID=1111

I have posted a polite and measured response to his blog and would suggest others do the same.

I know the desire of some would be to rant and be abusive buy IMO that would just be counterproductive. A whole sheaf of posts politely telling the truth would have far more effect.
 

Rhondda Rudie

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I have posted a polite and measured response to his blog and would suggest others do the same.

I know the desire of some would be to rant and be abusive buy IMO that would just be counterproductive. A whole sheaf of posts politely telling the truth would have far more effect.

I did the same
 

whoosh

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http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/idiot-almost-provokes-train-strike.html?m=1

Industrial relations on Britain’s railways have been good for some years now. Whatever gets in the way of smooth commuting, it tends not to be train crew downing tools, unlike the constant undercurrent of distrust between Transport for London and Tube staff. And one might think that the Government and especially the people at the DfT would prefer it that way. But that thought may have been misplaced.


At a meeting in Croydon Town Hall last Thursday, Peter Wilkinson, who is the DfT’s managing director of passenger services, suggested that the Government was going to change train drivers’ hours in order to “improve rail services”, although how this would be achieved was not told. His attitude was one of forthright confrontation: indeed, “His comments suggest the Government is prepared for another protracted industrial dispute”.

He told the meeting “Over next three years were going to be having punch ups and we will see industrial action and I want your support”. There was more: “Mr Wilkinson said train drivers are paid high salaries of about £60,000 a year or more to work three days a week, with no obligation to work on Sundays. He told the meeting drivers still have the same 'fire break' rest stops as they did when trains were run on coal”.

Wilkinson then became particularly unpleasant as he ranted “I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them … They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards … They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place … They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry”. I wasn’t aware the railways belonged to him.

Quite apart from the appallingly bad attitude shown here, Wilkinson has his facts badly wrong. No driver - apart from maybe Eurostar, and that is not in his remit - makes anything like £60K a year. Nor do they work only three days a week. I’ll go further: regular shifts are typically around 9 to 9.5 hours from signing-on, with many operators including Sunday in the working week. Rest day working is not uncommon.

Premium payments for overtime have come down, typically, to 15% over normal time. Drivers of trains that do not have retention toilets have been known to have to resort to relieving themselves on the track during turn-rounds at remote terminal stations. All the perks historically associated with train drivers’ pay have been successively negotiated away over the years in exchange for better basic salaries.

All this information is readily available, generally by talking to those same drivers, which one might have thought Peter Wilkinson would try sometime. He might also think twice about the amount of leverage he has on train drivers’ remuneration, considering that those drivers’ contracts are with the train operators, not the DfT. He can then consider the sentiments of the good and great Gerry Fiennes, greatest of railway managers, who reminded us “the driver is the only one who moves us forward”.

The driver is the one who has to learn the rules, learn every mile of every route on which he or she will drive, learn every traction type and all its variants, undergo regular medical checks, be subjected to routine drug and alcohol testing, and on top of all that, all too frequently, along with other train crew, face irate passengers when things go wrong.

Indeed, in a recent interview with Rail Professional, Wilkinson stated “For me, front line staff are the heroes of this industry, they’re the people who make it work, not people like me in head offices and places; this is a nonsense, we’re just petty bureaucrats. The people who make the railway work every day are very modest, very ordinary people, often not terribly well paid, in parts of this railway that are incredibly congested”.

Those people he praised include the same drivers about whom he is now shooting from the hip. So Peter Wilkinson is not merely a hot-headed hipster and a loose cannon, he is also a hypocrite of the worst kind. And he’ll get no support from hard pressed commuters if he screws around with their journey to work merely in pursuit of personal aggrandisement.

Trade Union leaders have been incensed by the remarks. And, after his outburst last week, Peter Wilkinson has now withdrawn his inflammatory remarks, claiming “I care passionately about the rail industry and I am committed to helping Government deliver a better rail service for passengers”. But with the kind of passion and commitment he has shown recently, the industry might be better served with him outside it.
 

PHILIPE

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Wilkinson's attitude alone will alienate drivers never mind any steps he might want to take in any attack on drivers.
 

ComUtoR

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Have you? Standard office hours are 9 to 5 or 9 to 5:30 with a 1 hour lunch break. Take the former - that's 8 hours, take away 1 for a lunch break and it's 7 hours. 7 x 5 = 35, which is your 35 hour week. If you work less than this please tell me what your job is!

I get a paid 1/2 hr break. If I'm on a 9hr 15min diagram and I'm only getting a 1/2 hr break then I've worked 8hr 45mins

I would sell my soul for a 7hr day with a 1hr break
 

FordFocus

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Peter Wilkinson will be pushed to one side at some point because the government or the TOCs can't afford to have a "war". The unions are certainly not looking for a war and it's in absolutely no ones interest at all especially passengers.

I hear the DfT are keen to have Sundays in the working week and so are the unions to guarantee an enhanced service but this will cost money for more drivers and changes to T&Cs. Many drivers I work with can easily afford to have this "war" that Wilkinson wants, his comments about maxing out credit cards is quite far from the mark. New driver contracts cannot be imposed as like the NHS health service as the Junior Doctors contracts had a clause allowing their employer to change T&Cs.

A lot of TSGN network is been covered on rest day working and if drivers decide to decline to work their days off then the service will slowly unravel. How I suspect the Southern Directors at this meeting are now back peddling and wish they either corrected his comments at source or never agreed to this meeting. ASLEF aren't letting the issue go and the next meetings with TSGN will be very interesting.
 

455driver

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Peter Wilkinson will be pushed to one side at some point because the government or the TOCs can't afford to have a "war". The unions are certainly not looking for a war and it's in absolutely no ones interest at all especially passengers.
My cynical side says he wont be, but as you say the only one looking for a fight is this pr-ck who 'earns' £256K a year . for doing what exactly!
I hear the DfT are keen to have Sundays in the working week and so are the unions to guarantee an enhanced service but this will cost money for more drivers and changes to T&Cs. Many drivers I work with can easily afford to have this "war" that Wilkinson wants, his comments about maxing out credit cards is quite far from the mark. New driver contracts cannot be imposed as like the NHS health service as the Junior Doctors contracts had a clause allowing their employer to change T&Cs.
The only ones who dont want Sundays inside are the TOCs (because of the costs involved) and most drivers, I dont have Sundays inside but work all my rostered ones (and a few others) but dont want them inside even though it is effectively costing me money and pension by having them outside.
A lot of TSGN network is been covered on rest day working and if drivers decide to decline to work their days off then the service will slowly unravel. How I suspect the Southern Directors at this meeting are now back peddling and wish they either corrected his comments at source or never agreed to this meeting. ASLEF aren't letting the issue go and the next meetings with TSGN will be very interesting.
I see a lot of people are banging on about us and our 'barbecue' Sundays when the drivers are not happy but can anyone tell me precisely how many TOCs have suffered a 'barbecue' Sunday over the last couple of years?
I cant think of any, although there have been a few where drivers who were not booked to work on a Sunday have refused to work their day off to help the company out but that would be the same whether Sundays were inside or not so isnt relevant!

Push too hard for no reason and the drivers will just say "<~@> it, if we are going to get blamed for something we are not doing we may as well do it" and the trains wont be running, that is something nobody wants to happen.

What the ulterior motive is behind this 'statement' nobody knows for sure (I have posted my thoughts previously), but in a couple of years time, when they have finally screwed over the junior Doctors, I can see it being our turn on the rack, I mean 'they' dont want the peasants earning a decent wage do 'they'!
 
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Carlisle

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My cynical side says he wont be, but as you say the only one looking for a fight is this pr-ck who 'earns' £256K a year . for doing what exactly!

numerous recent disputes on LU, FGW, ATW etc suggest the reality is more likely to be certain people on both sides looking for a fight rather than simply blaming one side or the other
 
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455driver

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numerous recent disputes on LU, FGW, ATW etc suggest the reality is more likely to be certain people on both sides looking for a fight rather than simply blaming one side or the other

What have the Unions done wrong here?

All recent disputes have been over changes being imposed on the workforce, not the workforce trying to feather their nest!
 

A-driver

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numerous recent disputes on LU, FGW, ATW etc suggest the reality is more likely to be certain people on both sides looking for a fight rather than simply blaming one side or the other


Except the unions have done absolutely nothing prior to this meeting (which they neither attended nor were invited to) to provoke this. They have not been approached about any changes to T&Cs. In fact the big changes we are starting to face with GTR are all being dealt with very amicably by both sides. Wilkinson a comments here I don't believe reflect GTRs managment and seem to be purely about provoking the staff and unions into wanting a fight.

I can 100% assure you that Aslef are not looking for a fight here. This is very much one sided and that's a fact. Just one that many on here will not be keen to accept.
 
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