DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers

[A-driver]

I would be interested to see whether it was a false economy. There are plenty of 10 minute delays on the southern WCML caused by and attributable to the TOC not Network Rail. We all know that a 5L arrival becomes a 10L departure because of a missed slot, and then a 10L departure becomes a 15L arrival because it's stuck behind a stopper. I know London Midland's favoured tactic is to then just cancel intermediate stops (especially Apsley and Kings Langley *growl*) but that still costs money.

I'm not talking about having scores of drivers sitting around in case the signals fall over, but cutting out every last bit of recovery and resilience because it is "unproductive" doesn't seem the best idea either.



If I'd said that I'd be labelled "anti railway"

That's all dependant on what the TOC has classed as late running in terms of penalties and stats. But even internally, train planning come up with a cost effective set of diagrams. If a train breaks down causing delays and knock on issues train planning are not a fault, the depot picks up the delay.

 

[ComUtoR]

If a train breaks down causing delays and knock on issues train planning are not a fault, the depot picks up the delay.

It's even worse than that. I was in a meeting and we were discussing delays and I was informed that our worst performing department for delays is Engineering. Even internally the delay attribution deepens. We were getting a pat on the back as Operations was one of the best performing departments.

Shockingly I then found out that even engineering are pushing around the delay attribution further and that some faults are attributed to us and others are attributed to the guys in charge of the maintenance contracts !

It really is a huge money-go-round. The attitudes do appear to be if it ain't our fault, then we don't care and we ain't paying for it anyway.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I appreciate that this is not a thread about delay attribution but it worth remembering that the whole idea is to identify 'root cause' with a view to preventing future delays if possible. If it really is the maintenance contacts that are causing a problem then it is only right that those in charge feel the incentive to improve matters.

The performance regime does not, in itself, require detailed cause, only the party responsible - basically Network Rail, the TOC or another operator. The 'money' is only a representation of future revenue loss and does not generally cover a TOC's other 'costs' of disruption, such as overtime, taxis, passenger compensation, etc. let alone the cost of things like engineering re-work.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

It might interest members to know that the MP who organised the meeting in question repeats the accusations in his blog on his website.Doesn't even state on there that the nonsense was actually from Wilkinson's speech.

 

[A-driver]

It might interest members to know that the MP who organised the meeting in question repeats the accusations in his blog on his website.Doesn't even state on there that the nonsense was actually from Wilkinson's speech.

No surprise, he's a Tory MP. It's what they do. It's a smear campaign. Tell lies. Apologise for any offence whilst repeating the lies so the figures are further embedded into people's minds but never retract the lies or correct the figures.

 

[hounddog]

No surprise, he's a Tory MP. It's what they do. It's a smear campaign. Tell lies. Apologise for any offence whilst repeating the lies so the figures are further embedded into people's minds but never retract the lies or correct the figures.

And of course the unions never lie about anything, do they?

 

[notadriver]

And of course the unions never lie about anything, do they?

Can you be more specific in the case of train drivers and ASLEF?

 

[tony6499]

During my last few years on both sides of the fence train crew were being worked to the bone, no spare crews and constant late running was getting worse. Diagrams made tighter, PNB's made shorter, no spare times between working for a quick fag or a cuppa but everyone in their ivory towers think drivers and guards have the life of riley.

 

[A-driver]

And of course the unions never lie about anything, do they?

Could you provide us with some lies unions have told recently? I have shown you that a senior official from the DfT has lied and a Tory MP has repeated those lies. And there is absolutely no dispute that these are lies. We do not earn 60k for a 3 day week and we do not still get steam breaks. Those are 2 lies they have told and repeated.

Now it's your turn, please provide us with an indisputable lie a rail union has recently told.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

During my last few years on both sides of the fence train crew were being worked to the bone, no spare crews and constant late running was getting worse. Diagrams made tighter, PNB's made shorter, no spare times between working for a quick fag or a cuppa but everyone in their ivory towers think drivers and guards have the life of riley.

Absolutely spot on. And other grades of front line staff are constantly told how good we have it by managment. The vast majority of staff who hook the fade internally are initially quite surprised at how different the reality is from what they are always told. GTR tried telling RMT members they couldn't have a payrise this year because the drivers took all the money on their payrise. It's a constant attempt at present to turn staff against each other.

 

[Panupreset]

This chap can say what he likes, train drivers situation is different from Doctors. Train Drivers work for private companies run for profit. It is not in the interests of those companies to have their drivers on strike.

The real issue IMHO is elitism, where the so called elite have an issue with the working man earning a decent crust.

 

[Llanigraham]

What's needed is a modern, efficient railway that keeps costs low, trains long (and full - and preferably electric) and customers satisfied. This requires great people. It does not require people who think they are the best thing since sliced bread and don't want the Railway to change - it needs to and it will do. The current drivers' Gravy-train situation is obviously entirely untenable.

Government should have gone after drivers years ago rather than starting with the passengers. I'll avoid commenting on specifics because I don't have all the facts. Although what he said he said in the wrong way. Doesn't mean he was wrong.

If I were King for a day I might suggest that drivers should have easier shifts and work fewer hours - but at lower rates of pay and with rather more of them.

Yeah right!!
And do you also believe that the moon is made of cheese?

Perhaps you need to do some research and talk to some drivers first!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And as usual for RUK instead of a sensible, safe discussion space we have someone going off the rails with ad hominem attacks just because they don't like somebody.

No I haven't read the entire thread - why do I need to? It was a general statement of my position, it is uncontroversial that some train drivers are rather overpaid (hence gravy train) and it was a pretty neutral assessment of the situation. You agree that there needs to be change, and you agree that the outcome of negotiation resulting in the change eventually and that this will be good for the industry. Seems we've plenty of common ground. I'm not sure what is being disagreed about so vehemently that there is a need for that kind of emotion. As for 'going after' the drivers well I agree, but they shamelessly go after my money for fares in most of their press releases, telling me that I and not they will be paying for the costs of the railway so...

I note the lack of recognition of my point that there should be more jobs and responsibilities decreased in order to reduce the risk of burnout and improve concentration and workplace safety, but hey don't worry about balanced argument.

Then I suggest you do read the whole thread!!
And you are now making accusations with no basis whatsoever!!

Since some signallers are well paid perhaps you'd like to have a go at them as well?

 

[Class 170101]

Oh and if your partner works a 9-5 you will never see them - either you or they are asleep.

Last time I checked you don't see anyone when you are asleep anyway.

 

[87015]

That's dependant on what kind of work the TOC operates. Long distance operators need to attract custom as they have very real competition from airlines, roads etc and so people will turn elsewhere if they don't provide a certain service level. Commuter tocs, on the other hand, look at the franchise as a money making machine and that's it. They know they can continuously that their customers as badly as they want and they will still be back tomorrow for more. If they can find a loophole or way of making more money they will exploit it-removing recovery time is one very real way of doing this. Even when presented wi evidence by the Union of "this train has never arrived on time in the last 6months and you have still given us a minimum PNB after working it" got the reply "it works on paper so it's staying like that".

Not really, other commuter TOCs have every driver in the peak taking the set out they bring in at London Terminals - no breaks or swaps - because that protects performance and is put above the costs.

If you say its being raised and kicked back, then thats high up making that call on priority. Doesn't happen everywhere though, thankfully better attitudes can be found.

 

[NSEFAN]

What's needed is a modern, efficient railway that keeps costs low, trains long (and full - and preferably electric) and customers satisfied. This requires great people. It does not require people who think they are the best thing since sliced bread and don't want the Railway to change - it needs to and it will do.

I want that as well. I don't think however it means that we need to pay drivers less. In fact, we need more of them in order to provide a reliable service. Whilst the government is interpreting "value for money" to mean "cheap as possible", the TOCs will never be able to employ more people. All that would happen with your approach is the same number of drivers being paid less. That spare money would then either be removed from subsidy, or be pocketed by the TOC's shareholders.

If I were King for a day I might suggest that drivers should have easier shifts and work fewer hours - but at lower rates of pay and with rather more of them.

A monarch acting like that would do a fine job at driving good people and companies away from the industry. The fact that the Queen isn't micromanaging the country should show you that!

No I haven't read the entire thread - why do I need to? It was a general statement of my position, it is uncontroversial that some train drivers are rather overpaid (hence gravy train) and it was a pretty neutral assessment of the situation.

If you don't read the thread then you can't be surprised that you'll end up in arguments.

 

[Phil.]

It might interest members to know that the MP who organised the meeting in question repeats the accusations in his blog on his website.Doesn't even state on there that the nonsense was actually from Wilkinson's speech.

Which M.P. is that. I might drop him a line and ask a few pertinent questions.

 

[A-driver]

Not really, other commuter TOCs have every driver in the peak taking the set out they bring in at London Terminals - no breaks or swaps - because that protects performance and is put above the costs.



If you say its being raised and kicked back, then thats high up making that call on priority. Doesn't happen everywhere though, thankfully better attitudes can be found.

During the peaks GTR also mainly have drivers sticking to the same unit. The issue dosnt occur during the peaks. It occurs when you have 32mins to have a 30min break in and then arrive 10 mins late causing an 8 min delay on the next working. Other TOCs suffer this problem to, it's certainly not unique to GTR.

 

[HH]

After wading through pages of tosh, I haven't seen the one thing I'd hoped to see, i.e. confirmation from a reliable source that Wilko actually said these words.

I find it easy to believe he said something and some barmy Tory MP embellished it on it to an inebriated journalist. If Wilko really did say that, then he needs to be given the heave-ho as soon as you like. It's not only factually incorrect, it's inflammatory, as is amply shown in this thread.

 

[Class 170101]

Which M.P. is that. I might drop him a line and ask a few pertinent questions.

Do they answer questions of their electorate now? Now there's a novel idea.

 

[the sniper]

After wading through pages of tosh, I haven't seen the one thing I'd hoped to see, i.e. confirmation from a reliable source that Wilko actually said these words.

I find it easy to believe he said something and some barmy Tory MP embellished it on it to an inebriated journalist. If Wilko really did say that, then he needs to be given the heave-ho as soon as you like. It's not only factually incorrect, it's inflammatory, as is amply shown in this thread.

He's said "I apologise for any offence caused by my comments" and has in no way denied the claim or said he's been misinterpreted. Surely that is confirmation from the man himself?

 

[bb21]

After wading through pages of tosh, I haven't seen the one thing I'd hoped to see, i.e. confirmation from a reliable source that Wilko actually said these words.

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[HH]

He's said "I apologise for any offence caused by my comments" and has in no way denied the claim or said he's been misinterpreted. Surely that is confirmation from the man himself?

It seems so. It now seems that ASLEF have complained; in their letter he is also alleged to have called train drivers muppets. I hear that Kermit is thinking of suing him.

The independent, in an article just published, perhaps seems to suggest that he was talking about tube drivers.

 

[D1009]

After wading through pages of tosh, I haven't seen the one thing I'd hoped to see, i.e. confirmation from a reliable source that Wilko actually said these words.

I find it easy to believe he said something and some barmy Tory MP embellished it on it to an inebriated journalist. If Wilko really did say that, then he needs to be given the heave-ho as soon as you like. It's not only factually incorrect, it's inflammatory, as is amply shown in this thread.

Apparently the public meeting was in Croydon, and was covered by the local paper. Having read the more balanced report in the Independent I get the impression that if anyone was inebriated, it wasn't the journalist.

 

[HH]

AI get the impression that if anyone was inebriated, it wasn't the journalist.

Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure he needs the help of alcohol. I've been in a couple of meetings with him before his DfT days and seen him perform since. On the positive side he is passionate and gives the impression that he will get things done. On the negative, I always felt he was a little odd; a touch of fanaticism; a tendency to see simple solutions to complex problems; not a 'people person'.

I would have thought he was too experienced to go foaming at the mouth in a public meeting, but it appears I was wrong; is it another case of someone starting to believe their own publicity?

 

[Phil.]

Do they answer questions of their electorate now? Now there's a novel idea.

If the correspondence is from someone in their constituency I believe that they have to. As I'm in the St. Ives constituency he won't answer any correspondence from me but it might make him think. More people should write to their M.P.s, it's the people wot pays them.
Anyway, I still don't know who this M.P. is. Anyone?

 

[455driver]

As far as the public are concerned, they now believe we are on £60k for a 3 day week, all the apologies in the world wont change that fact!

It is a carefully crafted first punch in round one of a fifteen round match and is designed to get the public on the side of Government while they take on the nasty, overpaid, militant, lazy train drivers!

 

[Wivenswold]

You know this is a very strange government. They seem to act with such an arrogant swagger, lording it over us peasants like they know best and they're untouchable.

But it's a dangerous tactic. So is ignoring that the youth of both the UK and US are being enchanted by left-wing politics. It's not just junior doctors, train drivers and migrants that they want to pick on, it's anyone who can't further their own careers. There will be a tipping point.

In the meantime, this commuter will support anyone and everyone's right to vote for strike action.

 

[whoosh]

As far as the public are concerned, they now believe we are on £60k for a 3 day week, all the apologies in the world wont change that fact!

It is a carefully crafted first punch in a 15 round match and is designed to get the public on the side of Government while they take on the nasty, overpaid, militant, lazy train drivers!

Absolutely that's what it is.

Anyway, I still don't know who this M.P. is. Anyone?

Gavin Barwell. Here's he his reporting how the meeting went:

http://www.gavinbarwell.com/blog.asp?BlogID=1111

"Second, the industry is operating under byzantine working practices. We were told last night that drivers still get the same rest breaks as when they used to have to do back-breaking labour shovelling coal into steam engines, that they don’t work a full week and that no-one can be required to work on a Sunday, but that despite this the basic salary for a train driver is £60,000 a year and many earn upwards of £80,000."

Notice how he's inflated the already inflated figure, and further eludes to 'lazyness' with the emotive "back-breaking labour" line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't shoot the messenger.

Looking at the wording used in the title of this thread itself, has there actually been any official press release from the DfT itself that sheds any light on the actuality of what this thread title actually states?

 

[redbutton]

I think he just took all of the best bits of TOC contracts in general and combined them to make his argument.

Some drivers do earn £60k+, either using rest day working or because they work for Eurostar and have to have four times the rules and route knowledge of a mainline driver.

Some drivers do work three days a week average, but they're on job share and get paid pro rata. Or maybe he was averaging out the whole year including holiday? Someone do the maths.

Some drivers do have uncommitted Sundays, or Sundays outside the working week. The TOCs with the high headline salaries certainly don't.

Some drivers do have conditions left over from BR (and steam) days. Most have been modified since, and the lengths of breaks only ever get shorter, but technically they do have their roots in steam era agreements.

There are no drivers that have the magic dream job where all of these things coexist.

Either he's woefully uninformed for someone in his position, he knows the facts but made the argument poorly, or he was intentionally rabblerousing. Either way, it's simply a reflection of the way the public think of us as trained monkeys, pushing a button a couple of times a day in exchange for a massive pay packet.

I do think ASLEF could be more proactive in publicly challenging those perceptions.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

This is starting to get worrying.

Last year, a week-long all line rover nearly went down the pan when the RMT decided to hold a strike during the same week (the strike was eventually called off). I'm I'm the hotel booking phase for this June's holiday and I don't want to be practically playing chicken with the unions this time around...