Crossrail trains decision made Bombardier awarded contract

[MK Tom]

And for that we can be thankful!

Have they ever had a repeat order apart from the Italians?

With all the anti-Bombardier rhetoric flying around it is helpful to remember that at least Bombardier, unlike Ansaldo, don't build trains that ooze goo and have bits of bodywork fly off, and build a fleet of trams that are all mechanically unique.

As a passenger I do personally find the Electrostar family provides a more pleasant travelling experience than the Desiro family does. Others may disagree but if I'm travelling from MK to Hemel Hempstead or Watford I'll pick a 377 over a 350 any day of the week.

 

[Class377/5]

Is the aventra an actually new design or is it like the electrostars (i.e. Based on the networker?)

Its the second attempt by Bombardier to create a new design.

Can this thread be renamed to represent what is really happening... Something along the lines of 'Crossrail trains to be made by the Bombardier'. Is there any need for all the Bombardier bashing going on? Why can't we just discuss the contract instead or is that too much when it's easier to have a go at a company.

To me there trains run great. The S Stock has had minimal problems - the only big issue was the bogie sets on the first 15 S8s which could have happened with any company. The Electrostars are functional, and reliable. They may not have top notch maintenance but then when you look at Southern's 455s vs SWT 455s the SWT ones seem to be a lot more capable so to me that says that Southern's maintenance regime is not as strict so less gets done when they go in for maintenance.

From what I've read Shenfield to Liv Street will be going over to Crossrail next year so does that mean that Crossrail will be using the 315(?)s and changing the livery on them or is it staying with Greater Anglia until Crossrail is complete in 2017/2018?

Crossrail will start work with 315 with Crossrail branding expected similar to what the 313s go at the start of Overground.

Bit like this....


Train at Richmond by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[jon0844]

Saw Sky News still spreading the line that 1400 jobs went by not winning the Thameslink contract. Forgot to add that most were going anyway. History rewritten, rather like HS2 costing £80+ billion...

And once again it was about Germany vs Derby. Because we all know Bombardier is a UK company!!

 

[ModernRailways]

Crossrail will start work with 315 with Crossrail branding expected similar to what the 313s go at the start of Overground.

Bit like this....


Train at Richmond by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

Thought that would be the case. Surprised they didn't wait though as this will look really quite tatty to the general public. Hopefully some sort of refresh will be done to the 315s so they aren't in a really horrid state when they move over to Crossrail.

 

[CP165]

I'm yet to hear any creaking when I've been on them? The only thing that could possibly be the creak is the partition between carriages when the trains are going round corners.

I too have not heard any creaking, I think they're noticeably smooth!

The majority of UK Bombardier stock are good trains IMO, the only let-downs being the Voyager family, but even then the 222s are quite nice to travel on and the 220s are mechanically sound units.

But let's not get into another Voyager discussion! I'm looking forward to the Aventra, on paper at least it seems like a very capable train.

 

[transmanche]

Hopefully some sort of refresh will be done to the 315s so they aren't in a really horrid state when they move over to Crossrail.

Why? Crossrail will be getting rid of them as soon as the 345s are ready,

(Although it has been speculated on here that they might end up on the electrified Valley Lines.)

 

[Chris125]

Apparently London Reconnections has been able to clarify the situation - they will indeed be 9-car, 205m trains.

Chris

 

[RichmondCommu]

Bombardier is still Canadian, end of the day where a company's HQ is located is of little relevance. Let's be honest with ourselves the trains arn't built here, they are assembled here, nearly all of the components are manufactured abroad. While Siemens carries out no assembly in the UK unlike Bombardier and eventually Hitachi. It still greatly contributes to the industry and economy by employing a large skilled work force in this country to carry out maintenance.

What and Bomdardier doesn't / won't in the future?

 

[sarahj]

The talk of what is a British company reminds me of many moons ago and princess Diana. She bought a Merc and it was, oh no, a German car, how shocking, end of the world etc etc. Then she was seen in a Mondeo and that was seen as ok, ahhh an English car. Err Hello, US company, car built in Belguim.

But I digress. I read today that it seems that CAF put in the lowest bid. Looks like the company with the cor blimey guv, jellied eals, luv a duck, I'm British dont cha know won out for some reason.

Goes off in her Italian car made in Poland.

 

[Chris125]

Thanks to John Bull of LR the extra 5 units has also been explained:

"…the reason for the 65 trains rather than sixty is to provide five for the additional Franchise service commitment for Shenfield – Liverpool Street."

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

Saw Sky News still spreading the line that 1400 jobs went by not winning the Thameslink contract. Forgot to add that most were going anyway. History rewritten, rather like HS2 costing £80+ billion...

And once again it was about Germany vs Derby. Because we all know Bombardier is a UK company!!

Indeed, they announced before the contract award that only 300 jobs would be saved if they won and 1000 would be going whether they won or not. History rewritten and now all the jobs were lost because they didnt win.

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks to John Bull of LR the extra 5 units has also been explained:

"…the reason for the 65 trains rather than sixty is to provide five for the additional Franchise service commitment for Shenfield – Liverpool Street."

Chris

Also pointed on to John on LR was the fact that the peak extra to Liverpool Street high level was already announced.

Curiously the order amount was rumored for 63 although the 60 unit was trains in service in peak. Perhaps 65 is the total amount now for the expected service plus spares with the 18 for other plans.

Indeed, they announced before the contract award that only 300 jobs would be saved if they won and 1000 would be going whether they won or not. History rewritten and now all the jobs were lost because they didnt win.

Fact Bombardier stayed quiet and allowed the lie to take roots shows to me they are prepared to use underhand tactics to get their way (like allow the staff and unions to apply political pressure to get more orders in).

But come 2018 when the Crossrail order is starting to wind down it'll be back to must win some orders to keep Derby open with a second UK assembly plant now open challenging them for the UK jobs PR.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't see Crossrail taking over from HEx for a minute. Heathrow Connect already comes with I assume, but HEx is a premium (and expensive!) first class style service, and I don't really think the sort of rolling stock designed to serve a 24tph+ 'tube-style' service in central london will really be taken well by HEx customers.

On the Bombardier debate, I do hear some creaking on the S7 stock, not on every unit, and not too often, but I do hear it sometimes. The one thing I notice is on several units there's loose panels - most usually the mesh that covers the lights, or the plastic boards that hold the adverts in. These aren't exactly mission-critical items, but there's no excuse for them to be flapping around on <6 month old units really, not on as many occasions as I've seen them.
That said, the suspension on the 360s used to creak pretty badly when they were new. I haven't heard that for a while so perhaps they've sorted it, but I don't really travel on Desiros often enough to get a good evaluation any more.

As for the rebrand to Crossrail, they can do one better than Overground's 313s/508s as they don't have the Silverlink base livery to deal with, just plain white, to which they can apply a basic livery that will obviously be TfL based.

 

[po8crg]

I don't see Crossrail taking over from HEx for a minute. Heathrow Connect already comes with I assume, but HEx is a premium (and expensive!) first class style service, and I don't really think the sort of rolling stock designed to serve a 24tph+ 'tube-style' service in central london will really be taken well by HEx customers.

Sure, but the current HX/HC choice is purely speed and train quality; both go to Paddington.

HX/XR will be nice, fast train to Paddington versus less-comfortable, slower train that goes direct to the West End (TCR), City (Farringdon/LST) and Canary Wharf.

I suspect that some HX passengers will find themselves changing to XR in Paddington. When they realise they could have got on XR at Heathrow and saved both time and money, they'll get slightly annoyed.

 

[DarloRich]

The fan boy comments on this site are ludicrous sometimes! Whilst I am sure you know best about the design, construction standards, reliability, interior decoration, ability to get a 4 g signal or whatever other metric you use to judge something that hasn’t even been built yet let alone gone through final design I might be tempted to wait until they are built before passing judgement.

Am I pleased the trains are being built in Britain – Patriotically, yes I am as it keeps British workers in work and paying tax. Would I care if they were made in Germany or Italy or Spain or somewhere else, other than on a patriotic basis? No. Would most real people? No. Ultimately, a deliverable product with the best value for money as judged against the tender criteria is all important.

 

[Erniescooper]

I wonder if the great British company will do their usual trick of laying off all the contractors seven weeks before the contract is due to start and then offering them their jobs back on less money .

 

[transmanche]

I don't see Crossrail taking over from HEx for a minute.

Heathrow Express only has a track access agreement in place until 2023. After then... who knows?

I think the current RUS expects the HEx paths to be used on fast services to Reading or beyond. The benefit of Crossrail serving central London and Docklands will more than outweigh the loss of a 'premium service'.

 

[joeykins82]

My understanding was that Heathrow Airport Holdings owned the track beyond Airport Junction, hence why Heathrow Connect is a jointly operated service (FGW between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, HEx to the airport). If Crossrail is going to take over those services, will Network Rail be buying the track and stations, or will TfL & the Crossrail TOC have to negotiate fees with the airport?

 

[swt_passenger]

... or will TfL & the Crossrail TOC have to negotiate fees with the airport?

Already done as part of the Crossrail Act?

 

[HSTEd]

Well the Airport can either come to terms with Tfl/Crossrail/DfT or they can get the Heathrow Connect service cut off immediately with Heathrow Express following in 2023.

 

[jopsuk]

Modern Railways has an article on HEX- bascially whilst it is currently a fully integrated organisation, what will happen is that HAH will split it into an infrastructure company and a train operator, with an agreement in place with the Crossrail concession holder for track access (pretty much as a recipricol to the track access agreement with Network Rail. The negotations, if not already complete, are very advanced.

 

[southern442]

I want Bombardier to win. Will be interesting to compare the 345 to the 700 as both have a demanding spec with high reliability on 24tph.

Hopefully the interiors will be better than on the 700's!

 

[47802]

Hopefully the interiors will be better than on the 700's!

Somehow I doubt that given Crossrail is more Metro than Thameslink, in any case the seating layout, type of seating, colour scheme etc, will be mostly down to the customer which ever company manufacturer's the train, I doubt a Bombardier built 700 would have looked all that different internally. I wouldn't be surprised if it has S8 style seating.

 

[Whistlekiller]

The fan boy comments on this site are ludicrous sometimes! Whilst I am sure you know best about the design, construction standards, reliability, interior decoration, ability to get a 4 g signal or whatever other metric you use to judge something that hasn’t even been built yet let alone gone through final design I might be tempted to wait until they are built before passing judgement.

Am I pleased the trains are being built in Britain – Patriotically, yes I am as it keeps British workers in work and paying tax. Would I care if they were made in Germany or Italy or Spain or somewhere else, other than on a patriotic basis? No. Would most real people? No. Ultimately, a deliverable product with the best value for money as judged against the tender criteria is all important.

I was busy compiling a post in notepad (in case I lost connection in the pub where I am now - thank god for beer when reading threads like this) when I read this submission of Rich's.

In 8 pages, it's probably the best thought out and sensible comment made. I would go further and request that all the expert doom-mongers predicting failure produce a properly researched report that gives a timescale for their predicted non-introduction of rolling stock, the predicted failures, the cause of each failure and the total cost of each failure - and then sign and date it so their comments can be assessed for validity at some point in the future.

In other words, if you want to retain credibility, put it up for historical scrutiny. "I think they're rubbish because I don't like the shape of the train" isn't good enough because believe it or not, most passengers don't care about things like that.

I recall a similar, whining, glass half empty approach by some clown on another forum a year or so ago regarding the introduction of S stock to the H&C and Circle lines. The end result was (surprise, surprise) they're here now with very little delay and are very nice trains, far superior to what went before and actually make the journey a whole deal more pleasant.

The Victoria Line is not having many problems with its Bombardier trains and the same goes for the London Overground. The introduction of 378s was greeted with derision by many due to their manufacturer. Funny isn't it? London Overground is a runaway success........not possible with crap trains.

 

[Simon11]

I was busy compiling a post in notepad (in case I lost connection in the pub where I am now - thank god for beer when reading threads like this) when I read this submission of Rich's.

In 8 pages, it's probably the best thought out and sensible comment made. I would go further and request that all the expert doom-mongers predicting failure produce a properly researched report that gives a timescale for their predicted non-introduction of rolling stock, the predicted failures, the cause of each failure and the total cost of each failure - and then sign and date it so their comments can be assessed for validity at some point in the future.

In other words, if you want to retain credibility, put it up for historical scrutiny. "I think they're rubbish because I don't like the shape of the train" isn't good enough because believe it or not, most passengers don't care about things like that.

I recall a similar, whining, glass half empty approach by some clown on another forum a year or so ago regarding the introduction of S stock to the H&C and Circle lines. The end result was (surprise, surprise) they're here now with very little delay and are very nice trains, far superior to what went before and actually make the journey a whole deal more pleasant.

The Victoria Line is not having many problems with its Bombardier trains and the same goes for the London Overground. The introduction of 378s was greeted with derision by many due to their manufacturer. Funny isn't it? London Overground is a runaway success........not possible with crap trains.

I agree with your point about the 378s, however wasn't there issues with Victoria Line sensors on the doors?

You would hope that after all the mistakes they made with S Stocks on the Met Line, they should be able to finally produce trains that are ready to run for the Circle & Hammersmith lines. You've seem to have forgotten that they had to set the Met S Stocks Trains back up to Derby.

 

[3141]

I was busy compiling a post in notepad (in case I lost connection in the pub where I am now - thank god for beer when reading threads like this) when I read this submission of Rich's.

In 8 pages, it's probably the best thought out and sensible comment made. I would go further and request that all the expert doom-mongers predicting failure produce a properly researched report that gives a timescale for their predicted non-introduction of rolling stock, the predicted failures, the cause of each failure and the total cost of each failure - and then sign and date it so their comments can be assessed for validity at some point in the future.

In other words, if you want to retain credibility, put it up for historical scrutiny. "I think they're rubbish because I don't like the shape of the train" isn't good enough because believe it or not, most passengers don't care about things like that.

I recall a similar, whining, glass half empty approach by some clown on another forum a year or so ago regarding the introduction of S stock to the H&C and Circle lines. The end result was (surprise, surprise) they're here now with very little delay and are very nice trains, far superior to what went before and actually make the journey a whole deal more pleasant.

The Victoria Line is not having many problems with its Bombardier trains and the same goes for the London Overground. The introduction of 378s was greeted with derision by many due to their manufacturer. Funny isn't it? London Overground is a runaway success........not possible with crap trains.

Good for Darlo Rich and Whistleblower!

 

[transmanche]

I agree with your point about the 378s, however wasn't there issues with Victoria Line sensors on the doors?

It's rare to find a brand new type of train that doesn't have some sort of teething trouble, especially when it involves the introduction of new technology

Look at the 1938 stock still soldiering on on the Isle of Wight; even they had teething problems when new - it just takes time to find and fix the niggles.

 

[455driver]

You would hope that after all the mistakes they made with S Stocks on the Met Line, they should be able to finally produce trains that are ready to run for the Circle & Hammersmith lines. You've seem to have forgotten that they had to set the Met S Stocks Trains back up to Derby.

But they are the old (sorted) design, we will no doubt get a new (improved) design with a long list of new 'issues'.

Got to re-invent the wheel every time!

 

[3141]

I was busy compiling a post in notepad (in case I lost connection in the pub where I am now - thank god for beer when reading threads like this) when I read this submission of Rich's.

In 8 pages, it's probably the best thought out and sensible comment made. I would go further and request that all the expert doom-mongers predicting failure produce a properly researched report that gives a timescale for their predicted non-introduction of rolling stock, the predicted failures, the cause of each failure and the total cost of each failure - and then sign and date it so their comments can be assessed for validity at some point in the future.

In other words, if you want to retain credibility, put it up for historical scrutiny. "I think they're rubbish because I don't like the shape of the train" isn't good enough because believe it or not, most passengers don't care about things like that.

I recall a similar, whining, glass half empty approach by some clown on another forum a year or so ago regarding the introduction of S stock to the H&C and Circle lines. The end result was (surprise, surprise) they're here now with very little delay and are very nice trains, far superior to what went before and actually make the journey a whole deal more pleasant.

The Victoria Line is not having many problems with its Bombardier trains and the same goes for the London Overground. The introduction of 378s was greeted with derision by many due to their manufacturer. Funny isn't it? London Overground is a runaway success........not possible with crap trains.

Good for Darlo Rich and Whistlekiller!

 

[Whistlekiller]

I agree with your point about the 378s, however wasn't there issues with Victoria Line sensors on the doors?

You would hope that after all the mistakes they made with S Stocks on the Met Line, they should be able to finally produce trains that are ready to run for the Circle & Hammersmith lines. You've seem to have forgotten that they had to set the Met S Stocks Trains back up to Derby.

As a matter of fact my memory of that is quite clear Simon but seeing as it's irrelevant to my post I didn't mention it.

It may come as a surprise but it's what's known in the trade as teething problems and it happens with just about everything. It's not the end of the world. The very fact that these teething problems are being corrected with little disruption to service is, in my opinion, the mark of a responsible manufacturer.

Service to passengers.....that's all that matters here, within contract and on one of the most intensively thrashed metro systems in the world today.

Same for the Victoria Line. A fault corrected without fuss or bother (unless you believe the transport fora or The Evening Standard of course).