Crossrail trains decision made Bombardier awarded contract

[Haydn1971]

I'm sure this has been asked elsewhere, but are these EMU's defined as Class 345's or is that just a historic working name and in all likelihood they may end up being called a Class 710 or similar ?

 

[Manchester77]

Bombardier have it just come on bbc breakfast breaking news

 

[Jala_150]

Can confirm Bombardier have it. Full article on the Crossrail website using the link below

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/art...nd-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier

The intention to award a contract to deliver rolling stock and a new depot for Crossrail with a capital value of around £1bn to Bombardier has been announced today by Transport for London (TfL) and The Department for Transport (DfT).

The contract between TfL and Bombardier covers the supply, delivery and maintenance of 65 new trains and a depot at Old Oak Common. The contract awardis subject to a 10 day standstill period.

TfL will run Crossrail as part of its integrated transport services for London, including ticketing and customer travel information.

Bombardier has confirmed that the new trains will be manufactured and assembled at their plant in Derby. This contract will support 760 UK manufacturing jobs plus 80 apprenticeships. An estimated 74 per cent of contract spend will remain in the UK economy.

The construction of the maintenance depot at Old Oak Common will see 244 jobs, plus 16 apprenticeships. When fully operational the depot will support 80 jobs to maintain the new fleet of trains.

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I'm sure this has been asked elsewhere, but are these EMU's defined as Class 345's or is that just a historic working name and in all likelihood they may end up being called a Class 710 or similar ?

Will be Class 345

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/art...nd-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier

In 2011, the class number 345 was officially registered with the National Rolling Stock Library in Nottingham for use by the new Crossrail trains.

 

[Nym]

Bombardier have it just come on bbc breakfast breaking news

Well; that's the reliability of Crossrail knackered and the delivery date likely to be pushed back a few years to what's convenient for Derby.

 

[Manchester77]

Quite I did wonder how they can produce the 345s as well as extra 378s, finishing off the S stock, 387s and likely LO Anglos order

 

[Johnuk123]

No contract signed, could still go elsewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any media report that offers the hope of good news is one that will do no harm to the political hopes of a certain party in power and with the election getting nearer and nearer, the matter that Derby is involved will be one that will be stressed.

 

[carriageline]

The radio is saying it has been awarded to bombardier?

 

[Johnuk123]

The radio is saying it has been awarded to bombardier?

It has, but before any contract is signed you have a 10 day 'standstill period'

 

[Carlisle]

Well; that's the reliability of Crossrail knackered and the delivery date likely to be pushed back a few years to what's convenient for Derby.

Sorry I did not realise that all foreign located train building factories orders are good value , never run late ,have problems or are ever unpopular with any passengers ,some Thameslink and IEP planners and some staff members and passengers of scotrail and TPE may disagree for starters

 

[47802]

Well; that's the reliability of Crossrail knackered and the delivery date likely to be pushed back a few years to what's convenient for Derby.

And why should that be the case first trains are not required in service until May 2017, Bombardier seem to currently have 2 production runs one for the S stock and one the Electrostar's, and S stock production is due to finish next year.

 

[swt_passenger]

'Unexpected news' contained in the DfT announcement, is that the trains will apparently be 9 car at 200m long, so presumably that's either about 22.5m cars, or even a 23m end car and 7 x 22m intermediates?

Lengthening the cars from the expected 10 x 20m - might that be to allow for 3 sets of doors each side?

They've also ordered 65 trains, whereas all previous indications were for 60. (Unless of course 60 was the number required in daily service in which case the extra 5 might be the maintenance allowance.) There are also options for 18 extra trains. That looks like they are definitely covering the possibility of western extensions?

 

[LexyBoy]

Unsurprising given TfL's preferences. I must say that I prefer travelling on an Electrostar to a Desiro; the latter feel unfinished and "hard" to me (though I know some dislike Electrostars for being "plastic"). Anyway, I expect Bombardier to deliver a decent product.

Is the 9-car rather than anticipated 10-car a move intended to reduce weight I wonder?

Well; that's the reliability of Crossrail knackered and the delivery date likely to be pushed back a few years to what's convenient for Derby.

You'd have thought TfL would have learned from the abysmal reliability of London Overground... oh, wait.

 

[Loki]

'Unexpected news' contained in the DfT announcement, is that the trains will apparently be 9 car at 200m long, so presumably that's either about 22.5m cars, or even a 23m end car and 7 x 22m intermediates?

Lengthening the cars from the expected 10 x 20m - might that be to allow for 3 sets of doors each side?

They've also ordered 65 trains, whereas all previous indications were for 60. There are also options for 18 extra trains. That looks like they are definitely covering the possibility of western extensions?

The image on Crossrail's site does show 3 doors per car.

 

[Morgsie]

Bombardier's future is secure

 

[hwl]

'Unexpected news' contained in the DfT announcement, is that the trains will apparently be 9 car at 200m long, so presumably that's either about 22.5m cars, or even a 23m end car and 7 x 22m intermediates?

Lengthening the cars from the expected 10 x 20m - might that be to allow for 3 sets of doors each side?

They've also ordered 65 trains, whereas all previous indications were for 60. There are also options for 18 extra trains. That looks like they are definitely covering the possibility of western extensions?

One would hope they haven't signed the contract for the platform edge doors yet!

65 vs 60 suggests more trains heading west from the "core" and not turning at Paddington.
Another 18! Sound about the right number to cover taking over HEx services and to extend the Maidenhead services to Reading with a couple of spare units for maintenance cover?

 

[swt_passenger]

Bombardier's future is secure

Only until about 2018 though.

At that stage the Derby Telegraph will be able to reheat their cold stories again...

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One would hope they haven't signed the contract for the platform edge doors yet!

65 vs 60 suggests more trains heading west from the "core" and not turning at Paddington.
Another 18! Sound about the right number to cover taking over HEx services and to extend the Maidenhead services to Reading with a couple of spare units for maintenance cover?

18 is far more than you'd need for a few services to Reading though - which I doubt would ever be more than the expected 4 tph to Maidenhead extended. Hex is unlikely at this stage, but would only need 4 full length units?

Bear in mind I went back and edited my post to suggest an alternative, that the five units might just be the maintenance factor, if 60 was the 'in-service' requirement. A number of tenders over the last few years have been expressed in terms of daily diagrams, like IEP was initially.

 

[HSTEd]

Reading extension throws the entire proposed timetable west of Paddington on the scrapheap.

It leads to a rethink of the number of 'conventional' services that will be left on the slow lines between Reading and Paddington.
It probably means Crossrail becomes far more intensive.

Western Access To Heathrow might also lead to Reading trains via Heathrow instead of terminators.

 

[Class377/5]

'Unexpected news' contained in the DfT announcement, is that the trains will apparently be 9 car at 200m long, so presumably that's either about 22.5m cars, or even a 23m end car and 7 x 22m intermediates?

Lengthening the cars from the expected 10 x 20m - might that be to allow for 3 sets of doors each side?

They've also ordered 65 trains, whereas all previous indications were for 60. (Unless of course 60 was the number required in daily service in which case the extra 5 might be the maintenance allowance.) There are also options for 18 extra trains. That looks like they are definitely covering the possibility of western extensions?

I think its a mistake as before its always been 10 cars. Remember they are expected to run as 8 cars initially according to Roger Ford. May be the fact they go from 8 to 10 has got the press office confused.

Sorry I did not realise that all foreign located train building factories orders are good value , never run late ,have problems or are ever unpopular with any passengers ,some Thameslink and IEP planners and some staff members and passengers of scotrail and TPE may disagree for starters

Think you'll find the 350's for TPE were ordered too late with Siemens warning when the order was placed they were unlikely to arrive by the Dec 2013 timetable change.

Thameslink and IEP were delayed by financial elements of the DfT's tender not the fleet building.

You do realise that Bombardier trains break more often meaning more maintenance, less availability and short formed trains for the passenger more frequently. So valve for money is debatable.

However it is pointed out that most of the best working fleets are foreign built, Bombardier's top fleets were Adtranz built and all the recent fleets are much lower bar the 379.

Bombardier's future is secure

Until 2017 when they are running out of orders again.

Reading extension throws the entire proposed timetable west of Paddington on the scrapheap.

It leads to a rethink of the number of 'conventional' services that will be left on the slow lines between Reading and Paddington.
It probably means Crossrail becomes far more intensive.

Western Access To Heathrow might also lead to Reading trains via Heathrow instead of terminators.

There was talk of upping the train frequency from 24tph towards 28/32 so maybe that's what the 18 are for? Thameslink deal includes more trains.

 

[hwl]

Only until about 2018 though.

At that stage the Derby Telegraph will be able to reheat their cold stories again...

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18 is far more than you'd need for a few services to Reading though - which I doubt would ever be more than the expected 4 tph to Maidenhead extended. Hex is unlikely at this stage, but would only need 4 full length units?

Bear in mind I went back and edited my post to suggest an alternative, that the five units might just be the maintenance factor, if 60 was the 'in-service' requirement. A number of tenders over the last few years have been expressed in terms of daily diagrams, like IEP was initially.

Options imply they probably won't be in service when Crossrail is initially in full operation.
65 vs 60 i.e. 5 for maintenance implies about an extra 8% to cover servicing. So 8% of 18 gives 1.5 i.e. rounds up to 2 units so 16 in service.
Taking over HEx (2023 when NR access rights up) would need 4-5.
Extending to Reading may be 4-6. Which suggests more extended to West Drayton using 6-8 trains?
Or maybe they are looking at extending the peak period (in reality almost peak hour) so more units might be required?

 

[starrymarkb]

Bombardier's future is secure

It is. Bombardier are a huge company and with the new C-Series Jet starting to gain orders they'll be around for a while. Derby is a different matter. Given Bombardier's form elsewhere in Europe I'm surprised Derby has lasted as long as it has. (For those that don't know Bombardier have a history of buying out the local manufacturer and then close the works down at the first opportunity)

 

[ainsworth74]

Have they actually said the units will be built in the UK

 

[Class377/5]

It is. Bombardier are a huge company and with the new C-Series Jet starting to gain orders they'll be around for a while. Derby is a different matter. Given Bombardier's form elsewhere in Europe I'm surprised Derby has lasted as long as it has. (For those that don't know Bombardier have a history of buying out the local manufacturer and then close the works down at the first opportunity)

You can argue its threatened to do that but keeps getting orders instead like

130 377/6 carriages
40 377/7 carriages
116 387 carriages
140 387 optional carriages
57 378 carriages
585/650 345 carriages (9/10 cars)
162/180 345 optional carriages (9/10 cars)

That's 1,230/1,313 (depending on if Crossrail is 9 or 10 cars). So for losing Thameslink, its actually got similar amount on its books.

 

[northwichcat]

Have they actually said the units will be built in the UK

Yes BBC News has said 74% of the work required for the order would be done at Derby.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think you'll find the 350's for TPE were ordered too late with Siemens warning when the order was placed they were unlikely to arrive by the Dec 2013 timetable change.

They were. Siemens warned that new 350s will be delivered more slowly than Desiro City trains for Thameslink due to only being able to set up a small production line for a small order of an out-dated design.

 

[transmanche]

Yes BBC News has said 74% of the work required for the order would be done at Derby.

Chinese whispers?

The original press release said that:

An estimated 74 per cent of contract spend will remain in the UK economy.

Which is quite different...

 

[Bantamzen]

Well; that's the reliability of Crossrail knackered and the delivery date likely to be pushed back a few years to what's convenient for Derby.

I don't know, Crossrail hasn't even been finished yet & already you are complaining about delays, we'll take some more new stock up North if you don't want it....?

Seriously though, it's not really a suprise that Bombardier got the contract. The government needs some good news on the UK jobs front, and who knows maybe the new stock will be their best yet & attract future contracts for work to be built (or partially built) here in the UK?

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that Crossrail taking over the proposed 2tph semi-fast Reading-Paddington services and running them through the core would require about 3 extra trains (assuming that it will take them about 45 minutes to travel from Paddington to Reading). Extending 2tph of the proposed 4tph peak Crossrail Maidenhead terminators to Reading would require 1 extra train. However, the fact that this total of four extra trains is so similar to the apaaranet five could well just be a coincidence.

A fair number of the potential extra 18 trains may be to do with potential WCML Crossrail services.

 

[fgwrich]

Chinese whispers?

The original press release said that:

Which is quite different...

Well, this is Bombardier. As there plugging the lightweightness of another non existent EMU it sounds like it'll have the awful 'Flexx-ECO bogie' which is manufactured in Norway. And as this is Bombardier, the traction packcages and control equipment will procured from their factory in Sweden, and the interior fittings are produced in..... So they can spend in Britain yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be made here again (media take note, even though you probably wouldn't!)

The other thing that'll be interesting to see, is these Bombardier units talking to the Siemens / Invensys ATO.

Only until about 2018 though.

At that stage the Derby Telegraph will be able to reheat their cold stories again...

Come 2018/2020 I wonder who's going to be feeling the pinch first? The 'It's British' but not actually British Derby Litchurch Lane plant of Bombardier or the North East's super new Japanese IEP 'Sticker Application Factory' of Newton Aycliffe where Hitachi are desperate to prove that they won't become the next Thrall Europa scenario.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes BBC News has said 74% of the work required for the order would be done at Derby.

Actually the DfT announcement said 74% of the content would be from the UK, not necessarily Derby.
It will be interesting to know where the traction package is coming from.

 

[transmanche]

Actually the DfT announcement said 74% of the content would be from the UK, not necessarily Derby.

Actually it said an "estimated 74 per cent of contract spend will remain in the UK economy" - which is not the same thing...