Crossrail trains decision made Bombardier awarded contract

[MidlandMainlie]

According to the Derby telegraph a decision on the winning bidder for the Crossrail rolling stock contract could be announced tomorrow (6th Feb).

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Cro...bardier-come/story-20562752-detail/story.html

Crossrail decision which could make or break Bombardier may come tomorrow

A DECISION on whether Derby train-maker Bombardier has won a major contract that could secure its long-term future in the city could be made tomorrow, according to Derby Telegraph sources.


Transport for London (TfL) was holding a board meeting today at which it was expected to discuss the £1 billion Crossrail rolling stock contract.


Bombardier is one of three firms bidding for the right to build the 60 trains, which will operate on a new network currently being built in the capital.


It is up against two foreign bidders – Japan's Hitachi and Spanish firm CAF...

 

[Nym]

Can someone please set them right about this Canadian company?

 

[badassunicorn]

To be honest, I hope Bombardier don't get it, bunch of cowboys the lot of them

 

[asylumxl]

To be honest, I hope Bombardier don't get it, bunch of cowboys the lot of them

Here here!

Desiro City please.

 

[Nym]

Here here!

Desiro City please.

Won't happen, Siemens pulled out; proberbly because it seems that TfL won't buy anything that isn't from sodding "Derby"(!)

09TS, S Stock, CF650, etc...

 

[Class377/5]

I want Bombardier to win. Will be interesting to compare the 345 to the 700 as both have a demanding spec with high reliability on 24tph.

 

[Nym]

I want Bombardier to win.

Honest question here;

Why?

 

[jon0844]

I don't wish to tempt fate but I suspect I know which trains will have the most teething problems, or be built to suit the factory not the customer.

 

[43074]

I want CAF to win: I'd like to see more of their stuff in the UK, and judging by what they sell abroad I think their train would be quite good.

 

[asylumxl]

Won't happen, Siemens pulled out; proberbly because it seems that TfL won't buy anything that isn't from sodding "Derby"(!)

09TS, S Stock, CF650, etc...

It doesn't stop me from wanting Desiro City :P.

 

[samuelmorris]

Won't happen, Siemens pulled out; proberbly because it seems that TfL won't buy anything that isn't from sodding "Derby"(!)

09TS, S Stock, CF650, etc...

I thought it was because Siemens were so busy with the delayed (not by them of course!) Thameslink order that they didn't have the capacity to deliver Crossrail rolling stock on time. Or is that just a cover?

Personally I don't see anyone other than Bombardier getting it, not after the fuss of last time. I don't really have a problem with this, as I don't have quite the same disdain for them others on this forum do. Still, I don't think there's any denying the finish is perhaps slightly better on the Siemens units.

As for the TfL Derby thing, what changed after the delivery of the 95TS?

 

[Nym]

It doesn't stop me from wanting Desiro City :P.

And I won't question such good sense on this forum...

 

[Domh245]

What changed? All of the other train manufacturers (alstom) upped root and went off abroad, leaving derby as the only remaining train manufacturer. Also, if you look at who placed the initial orders for the rolling stock, it was all metronet, so there might have been a bit of bias around, it only takes one board member with vested interests. CF650 - let's just not talk about that.

 

[Nym]

I thought it was because Siemens were so busy with the delayed (not by them of course!) Thameslink order that they didn't have the capacity to deliver Crossrail rolling stock on time. Or is that just a cover?

Personally I don't see anyone other than Bombardier getting it, not after the fuss of last time. I don't really have a problem with this, as I don't have quite the same disdain for them others on this forum do. Still, I don't think there's any denying the finish is perhaps slightly better on the Siemens units.

As for the TfL Derby thing, what changed after the delivery of the 95TS?

Control of "London Underground" passed from the DfT to TfL in 2003, even with Metronet BCV and Metronet SSL being responsible for ordering (so who else would get it other than Bombardier) when the contracts where awarded for the VLU and SUP rolling stock, TfL where being involved heavily after 2003 (VLU started around 2000) to the point of even when LUL Nominiee BCV and LUL Nominee SSL (Owned by TfL) the BT favouring was retained. With them even being awarded the ATC programme for SUP (and subsiquantly pulling out) over Westinghouse / Avensys who where slated for the project in the first place by Metronet...

In case some don't know, Metronet was part owned by Bombardier...

PS: VLU from back in around 2000 would have been ordered by Infraco BCV before Metronet existed...

 

[DT611]

I want CAF to win: I'd like to see more of their stuff in the UK, and judging by what they sell abroad I think their train would be quite good.

agree

 

[samuelmorris]

In case some don't know, Metronet was part owned by Bombardier...

I didn't know, and that explains a lot

 

[Geeves]

At least Crossrail dont have Ansaldo transporti on the cards. Now those guys are the real cowboys!!!

 

[Class377/5]

Honest question here;

Why?

Because I want to see if Bombardier can bring a train that's at the top of its class like the 357 or if its just DC stock Bombardier struggles with.

It doesn't stop me from wanting Desiro City :P.

I'm getting Desiro Cities so no complaints here.

I thought it was because Siemens were so busy with the delayed (not by them of course!) Thameslink order that they didn't have the capacity to deliver Crossrail rolling stock on time. Or is that just a cover?

Personally I don't see anyone other than Bombardier getting it, not after the fuss of last time. I don't really have a problem with this, as I don't have quite the same disdain for them others on this forum do. Still, I don't think there's any denying the finish is perhaps slightly better on the Siemens units.

As for the TfL Derby thing, what changed after the delivery of the 95TS?

Siemens have basically said they'd rather make sure they do one big contract well than two badly. The Thameslink deal is challenging enough and the delay now means Crossrail isn't a follow on order but right n the middle. The 700s are expected to be commissioned one a week during 2017 while every unit goes on test at Hertford on the ETCS/ATO testing. To try and commission a second fleet is a big ask especially as the peak demand in both orders overlap.

The disdain is from the fact its known that Siemens train won on technical grounds as much as the financial side yet the Derby supporters ignored the fact that Bombardier offered a design that came second in an effort to force through a more expensive (maintenance costs were higher) and less reliable train.

 

[47802]

Honest question here;

Why?

I also hope Bombardier get it, however I will not comment further on those who don't want Bombardier to get until the decision is announced

 

[Class377/5]

I also hope Bombardier get it, however I will not comment further on those who don't want Bombardier to get until the decision is announced

Why? The general comments is they want the more reliable train manufacturer to buy a new design than someone who has built more than half the UK rolling stock but the trains themselves are towards the bottom of the league with few exceptions.

 

[asylumxl]

I also hope Bombardier get it, however I will not comment further on those who don't want Bombardier to get until the decision is announced

Bombardier essentially wants to use the AdTranz designs with minimum changes (read investment) until nobody is willing to buy from them. At that point they will shut up shop as quickly as possible.

 

[47802]

Bombardier essentially wants to use the AdTranz designs with minimum changes (read investment) until nobody is willing to buy from them. At that point they will shut up shop as quickly as possible.

So given the latest Aventra is supposed to reduce maintenance costs over Electrostar by some 40 to 50% that would suggest a significant investment in updating the design.

I would also like to see some support for British based manufacturing I am sick to back teeth of the buy anything as long as its foreign mentality we have in this country today, and then we wonder why there isn't enough half decent jobs in this country.

 

[asylumxl]

So given the latest Aventra is supposed to reduce maintenance costs over Electrostar by some 40 to 50% that would suggest a significant investment in updating the design.

Some 15 years since the original Electrostar? Yes, about bloody time.

I would also like to see some support for British based manufacturing I am sick to back teeth of the buy anything as long as its foreign mentality we have in this country today, and then we wonder why there isn't enough half decent jobs in this country.

Perhaps if Bombardier produced better trains? You do also realise that a Desiro has a similar number of British components as your much loved Bombardier ****e? The industry doesn't want British because it will cost them money in the long run. It's a business and shouldn't be about politics.

 

[Class377/5]

So given the latest Aventra is supposed to reduce maintenance costs over Electrostar by some 40 to 50% that would suggest a significant investment in updating the design.

I would also like to see some support for British based manufacturing I am sick to back teeth of the buy anything as long as its foreign mentality we have in this country today, and then we wonder why there isn't enough half decent jobs in this country.

Although we'll never get the Aventra*, the design has been abandoned on the account of lack of interest. What we've got now is another design which Bombardier has called Aventra (original was 100mph, now its 125mph with slightly rejigged body).

Of course the fact that Bombardier have only started spending money four months ago* over two years since losing out to Siemens on Thameslink and having to compete with new designs from CAF and Hitachi you could question why now. Although note that Bombardier has been reported as saying the Aventra is 18 months away from a build to Rail and others.

* They started work on Aventra in October last year.

Although we had the new design, which we had called Aventra, we took the time after we heard we hadn’t won Thameslink to ask ourselves whether there were customer needs that we weren’t meeting

We put forward a business case to develop Aventra version two in about October last year. This provisioned for a multi million pound investment, paying for around 100 people for that period. Bombardier agreed the funding for this plan, which was a major sign of confidence and commitment in our design and this team

http://www.therailengineer.com/2014/01/31/exciting-new-aventra/

 

[samuelmorris]

There's a lot of imported components in the 378s (Traction motors, bogies, air conditioning, batteries, seats, couplers, CCTV and some of the interior) and I don't imagine it's much different for the other Electrostars. The facility in Derby is almost really just a final assembly plant, which makes Bombardier little better than things like the Honda factory for cars, or in fact, Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe. I want what little British manufacturing we have to stay as much as the next man, but there's no need to make that the #1 priority when assessing options if one is clearly inferior. That is an if, however. Are Bombardier trains really that bad compared to their peers?

I'm interested about the 'just the DC electrostars' comment - were the 375s worse than the 357s, or is it just an age thing?

 

[fgwrich]

Some 15 years since the original Electrostar? Yes, about bloody time.



Perhaps if Bombardier produced better trains? You do also realise that a Desiro has a similar number of British components as your much loved Bombardier ****e? The industry doesn't want British because it will cost them money in the long run. It's a business and shouldn't be about politics.

And yet the body of the Aventra still seems to look very similar to the 'commuter' versions of the Electrostar - i.e 376 & 378. So, it's a new train that's probably not quite going to be a new train after all. New electronics yes, but if it looks like that then it'll be built the old way using probably already existing parts. We are talking about Bombardier afterall.

 

[Class377/5]

There's a lot of imported components in the 378s (Traction motors, bogies, air conditioning, batteries, seats, couplers, CCTV and some of the interior) and I don't imagine it's much different for the other Electrostars. The facility in Derby is almost really just a final assembly plant, which makes Bombardier little better than things like the Honda factory for cars, or in fact, Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe. I want what little British manufacturing we have to stay as much as the next man, but there's no need to make that the #1 priority when assessing options if one is clearly inferior. That is an if, however. Are Bombardier trains really that bad compared to their peers?

I'm interested about the 'just the DC electrostars' comment - were the 375s worse than the 357s, or is it just an age thing?

You should but Modern Railways in Jan. Has a list how reliable units are.

For the new EMU list you get;

1 458 Alstom 133,359
2 350/2 Siemens 98,220
3 350/1 Siemens 81,130
4 444 Siemens 64,249
5 450 Siemens 54,004
6 357 Bombardier 48,175 (AC Electrostar)
7 333 Siemens/CAF 43,131
8 375/8 & /9 Bombardier 40,366 (DC Electrostar)
9 395 Hitachi 39,836
10 360/1 Siemens 39,389
11 379 Bombardier 37,544 (AC Electrostar)
12 377 (Southern) Bombardier 33,492 (DC + 15 DV Electrostar)
13 375/3, /6 & /7 Bombardier 27,560 (DC Electrostar)
14 380 Siemens 22,633
15 377 (FCC) Bombardier 21,322 (DC Electrostar)
17 378/1 Bombardier 17,496 (DC Electrostar)
19 360/2 Siemens 360/2 15, 689
20 378/2 Bombardier 13,813 (DV Electrostar)
21 376 Bombardier 13,434 (DC Electrostar)

There a pattern there. AC Electrostars seem to work better than the DC generally especially as the 357 is the first Electrostar fleet built. Will also point out that the Electrostar is based on a BR design where as Siemens, CAF and Hitachi designs above are new post privatisation.

 

[47802]

There's a lot of imported components in the 378s (Traction motors, bogies, air conditioning, batteries, seats, couplers, CCTV and some of the interior) and I don't imagine it's much different for the other Electrostars. The facility in Derby is almost really just a final assembly plant, which makes Bombardier little better than things like the Honda factory for cars, or in fact, Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe. I want what little British manufacturing we have to stay as much as the next man, but there's no need to make that the #1 priority when assessing options if one is clearly inferior. That is an if, however. Are Bombardier trains really that bad compared to their peers?

I'm interested about the 'just the DC electrostars' comment - were the 375s worse than the 357s, or is it just an age thing?

So its just a final assembly plant, so you would rather be no assembly plant at all then? and I'm not sure that such as Percy Lane, BTROS electronics, Solo Electronics and other UK based suppliers to Bombardier would entirely appreciate your comments.

I am well aware Siemens have some UK content although whether its as much as Bombardier I would like to see a detailed comparison.

As for those reliability figures well they are interesting although the fact there seem to be wide variations on what are similar trains might suggest that the way the trains are being maintained might have some bearing on it.


I do find it interesting that allegedly the most reliable units were once regarded as dogs, and appear to be far more reliable than the trains that were bought instead.

 

[Loki]

Can we actually see what Hitachi and CAF offer? So far I've only seen the Bombardier offer.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought Bombardier in the recent bids had the lowest UK content by percentage of contract value of any of the bidders? (CAF possibly lower)
As remarked above it also failed on both the technical and economic side (cheap unit price as mature technology but lifetime maintenence and running costs were forecast to be higher).


I would be really surprised if anyone other than Bombardier won this contract though.