Could Motorail have a future?

[ChiefPlanner]

Back when there were motorail services, who were the users?

I'm 60 now and = don't remember them ever being a mass market product - they never appeared to be something the general population ever used, presumably unaffordable for many...

Would be interesting if someone knows the typical fare for the car add-on, and could index it up to date using 'rail fare inflation'...

Classic middle class families - pipe smoking Dad, subservient mum - 2.4 children and an Austin Maxi. Lived in Surbiton - which had a brief Motorail to Penzance loaded in the coal yard. Friend of mine worked as Supervisor at Kensington Olympia in the early 70's when the departures were 2x25 to Willesden an electric loco forward. High class clients with Bentleys etc ....

 

[HSTEd]

If the shuttle gauge had been used for HS1 then we could have had car and lorry shuttles leaving from a terminal on the M25 - which would cut car miles down significantly.

Without a national network at such a large gauge Motorail cannot be made to work economically, the trains simply can't carry enough vehicles on our tiny short trains.
However I will provide the thread with a rather amusing PDF I obtained a long time ago - a US Army study on using high speed rail to move tanks.

 

[30907]

I've used French and German traditional Motorail services and am seriously considering the new Austrian service Düsseldorf-Vienna. A couple of weeks ago we used the French Autotrain (where your car goes on an overnight freight or express parcels from Paris, and you use a TGV).

Paris Bercy was seriously congested when we checked in , which suggests the service is well used in high season, but even so at most 10 cars were offloaded at Narbonne. The French service has shrunk drastically over the last 25 years, and its survival must depend on it being a marginal product. How long before the car transporters are life expired (as in Germany in 2017?) and the service disappears? Over the years it has already shrunk drastically....
/
As to cost, because of my job I can usually choose the cheapest services on offer - they were just about competitive when 4 of us were travelling, because I reckoned to save 2 nights in hotels, but this year it was basically to save the drive in an elderly car, and within reason cost wasn't a factor.

I mention all this just to flag up that even in France which is very Paris centred AND a large country a simplified Motorail offer may not have a future....

 

[HSTEd]

Considering how motorail worked 20-30 years ago, I'm not sure how it would be compatible with current MU working.

You would run a 'Le Shuttle' style unit train in a single block.
Terminal would be tow baloon sidings, one loading, one unloading.

 

[Johnuk123]

Classic middle class families - pipe smoking Dad, subservient mum - 2.4 children and an Austin Maxi. Lived in Surbiton - which had a brief Motorail to Penzance loaded in the coal yard. Friend of mine worked as Supervisor at Kensington Olympia in the early 70's when the departures were 2x25 to Willesden an electric loco forward. High class clients with Bentleys etc ....

I caught it from Sutton Coldfield to Stirling quite a few times in the 70's my dad being the driver and the cars on it were all pretty decent but certainly nothing special.

It finished in 1973 at Sutton Coldfield with the depot being transferred to Crewe and we used that a few times too.

Once we'd been on the train with the car driving to Scotland seemed like hell.

 

[30907]

Classic middle class families - pipe smoking Dad, subservient mum - 2.4 children and an Austin Maxi. Lived in Surbiton - which had a brief Motorail to Penzance loaded in the coal yard. Friend of mine worked as Supervisor at Kensington Olympia in the early 70's when the departures were 2x25 to Willesden an electric loco forward. High class clients with Bentleys etc ....

Okehampton not Penzance....

 

[acg5324]

For some Motorail nostalgia

http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/f56164866

 

[Bald Rick]

If the shuttle gauge had been used for HS1 then we could have had car and lorry shuttles leaving from a terminal on the M25 - which would cut car miles down significantly.

Not unless it was 4 track. Shuttle trains trundling along at 130kph do not fit well into the timetable with 250-300kph passenger trains.

And at fares of £2/mile one way (unless you're doing a day trip) I can't see many takers compared to the M20.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've used French and German traditional Motorail services and am seriously considering the new Austrian service Düsseldorf-Vienna. A couple of weeks ago we used the French Autotrain (where your car goes on an overnight freight or express parcels from Paris, and you use a TGV).

Paris Bercy was seriously congested when we checked in , which suggests the service is well used in high season, but even so at most 10 cars were offloaded at Narbonne. The French service has shrunk drastically over the last 25 years, and its survival must depend on it being a marginal product. How long before the car transporters are life expired (as in Germany in 2017?) and the service disappears? Over the years it has already shrunk drastically....
/
As to cost, because of my job I can usually choose the cheapest services on offer - they were just about competitive when 4 of us were travelling, because I reckoned to save 2 nights in hotels, but this year it was basically to save the drive in an elderly car, and within reason cost wasn't a factor.

I mention all this just to flag up that even in France which is very Paris centred AND a large country a simplified Motorail offer may not have a future....

Did the Narbonne run 20+ years ago when my eldest was 6 months old - a great experience but the return as marred by no water in the cars - even with BR staff discount it was pricey. What did amuse us was A Dell Boy car on board - and the clientele was 99% British....

 

[Highland37]

I heard something that trucks which travel through Switzerland but do not deliver to the country (e.g. Italy to Germany), must put their trailers on the train. Is this true?

The upgrade of the A9 will be bad for the railway and I would welcome a holistic approach where the railway is upgraded also and trucks are forced to travel by train or containers are put on the train. Basically an expansion of the current Tesco service, with enhanced loading gauge and rules to stop Asda etc just driving up the A9 every day.

 

[6Gman]

Classic middle class families - pipe smoking Dad, subservient mum - 2.4 children and an Austin Maxi. Lived in Surbiton - which had a brief Motorail to Penzance loaded in the coal yard. Friend of mine worked as Supervisor at Kensington Olympia in the early 70's when the departures were 2x25 to Willesden an electric loco forward. High class clients with Bentleys etc ....

I do recall one evening in Crewe when passengers and car got separated - can't remember now whether it was car got loaded but family missed the train or family caught the train but car wasn't loaded.

I do remember that the consequences were serious! Hotel bills, car hire bills etc etc etc

Probably wiped out any profit margin for that week.

 

[47271]

I last used Motorail Euston-Carlisle and return in the winter of 1995, far more recently than you'd imagine, although I think that was the final throes of the service. I was very young and had a clapped out Mini which wouldn't have covered the distance by any other means. I also used Edinburgh-Bristol earlier in the 90s and, I think, Aberdeen-Euston in the same period.

It was dirt cheap off season in those final years, and my recollection was that the package of the time always included First Class sleepers or day trains (restaurant car meals may also have been thrown in, but maybe that's my imagination at 20 years distance) at a price of only £10 or so above the same ticket without Motorail. Madness, no wonder it got shut down.

A few points relevant to the specific topic arising from those recollections:

- latterly these were not dedicated trains but one or two car vans attached to long distance sleepers or day trains, so any idea of there being enough business to support Motorail terminals out of city centres seems far fetched to me. Even with two wagons tagged on it didn't stack up if they were discounting to the extent that I took advantage of.

- to load, hilariously I hurtled my jalopy right into the middle and down the platform of Euston, Waverley, Temple Meads or wherever. Can you imagine that now? They won't even let taxis into Waverley any more.

- the 1995 Carlisle service involved the detachment and vice versa of the vans using the station pilot (I feel like I'm describing the 1930s) from regular Euston-Glasgow day trains , presumably an 87 and mk3s. Try that with a Pendolino, or try finding a station pilot.

- I don't agree that the UK motorway network has developed significantly since then so this isn't what makes Motorail a non starter now. It's the way the railway works that rules it out: security, mu operation and the need for operational profitability all mean that we won't be seeing Motorail again any time soon I fear.

It's a shame though, it was good fun.

 

[B&W]

No future at all, I'm afraid. Taking your car on to a train only made sense when the motorway network was either in its infancy or was still being built. A long drive would have been the norm on the old A roads, without many bypasses, and sufficient people wished to avoid such a drive to make such a service worthwhile.

As has been said, why you want to stick your car on to a train rather than drive yourself, or hire one at your destination?

In the 60s and 70s it took at least 8 hours to drive from West Sussex to Plymouth on a good day. Today it is no more than 4 hours even with the A303 as it is.

Similarly it took my dad all day to drive from West Sussex to RAF Litchfield. Two years ago I drove from West Sussex to Bury spent two hours there and came back in one day. No problem, very comfortable and I was not tired at the end of the day. Why on earth would I and others want to drive to a station, put my car on a train, take hours longer and pay a lot more than if I drove straight there.

Even with the much longer distances in Europe Motor Rail is disappearing for similar reasons.

If I want to go longer distances say to Scotland I fly and hire a car. With the introduction of Voyagers and other uncomfortable cramped interior rolling stock sadly long distance trains are no longer a consideration.

Brian

 

[Argosy]

There is no where in the whole of Glasgow to build a small motorail depot, really ?

You only need 2 sidings, I'm sure that wouldn't be too difficult.

Not at Central there isn't. Why would you spend millions on building the terminal?

 

[HSTEd]

Not unless it was 4 track. Shuttle trains trundling along at 130kph do not fit well into the timetable with 250-300kph passenger trains.

Because there are literally SO MANY Eurostars running through HS1
Don't most of them stop anyway?
The CTRL crosses the M25 around kilometre 20 - some 79km from the tunnel.
At the 140km/h it would take 34 minutes - (we must assume that the chunnel train would cover the extra distance at that speed as it would not slow towards the end of the tunnel).
At 300km/h and instant acceleration it takes 16 minutes, so more like 18 I would think.
So I think you would probably need some quad track, but not really that much since you would likely be able to manage with one dynamic loop and a short section on approach to the terminal.

And at fares of £2/mile one way (unless you're doing a day trip) I can't see many takers compared to the M20.

I am pretty sure most of the cost of security, maintaining ticketing facilities, the costs of running the chunnel itself and stuff like that.
A longer line haul is not likely to cost as much as the average of the current chunnel journey.

You could probably also manage a higher top speed than the puny 140kph if the run was longer.

 

[muddythefish]

I last used Motorail Euston-Carlisle and return in the winter of 1995, far more recently than you'd imagine, although I think that was the final throes of the service. I was very young and had a clapped out Mini which wouldn't have covered the distance by any other means. I also used Edinburgh-Bristol earlier in the 90s and, I think, Aberdeen-Euston in the same period.

It was dirt cheap off season in those final years, and my recollection was that the package of the time always included First Class sleepers or day trains (restaurant car meals may also have been thrown in, but maybe that's my imagination at 20 years distance) at a price of only £10 or so above the same ticket without Motorail. Madness, no wonder it got shut down.

A few points relevant to the specific topic arising from those recollections:

- latterly these were not dedicated trains but one or two car vans attached to long distance sleepers or day trains, so any idea of there being enough business to support Motorail terminals out of city centres seems far fetched to me. Even with two wagons tagged on it didn't stack up if they were discounting to the extent that I took advantage of.

- to load, hilariously I hurtled my jalopy right into the middle and down the platform of Euston, Waverley, Temple Meads or wherever. Can you imagine that now? They won't even let taxis into Waverley any more.

- the 1995 Carlisle service involved the detachment and vice versa of the vans using the station pilot (I feel like I'm describing the 1930s) from regular Euston-Glasgow day trains , presumably an 87 and mk3s. Try that with a Pendolino, or try finding a station pilot.

- I don't agree that the UK motorway network has developed significantly since then so this isn't what makes Motorail a non starter now. It's the way the railway works that rules it out: security, mu operation and the need for operational profitability all mean that we won't be seeing Motorail again any time soon I fear.

It's a shame though, it was good fun.

Lovely ! Those were the days. A reminder that modern working methods in all walks of life have taken the fun out of life.

 

[Monarch010]

One of the problems with the French services is that the wagons are double deck to take normal height cars, but can't take 4x4s and the higher SUV-type vehicles that are more prevalent these days.

 

[Ash Bridge]

One of the problems with the French services is that the wagons are double deck to take normal height cars, but can't take 4x4s and the higher SUV-type vehicles that are more prevalent these days.

I think even during the 1970s that could be a problem when conveying Landrover type vehicles etc. BR solved that by having a mixture of both double deck Cartic and car flat type vehicles on certain Anglo-Scottish Motorail/Car Sleeper services.

 

[Johnuk123]

I think even during the 1970s that could be a problem when conveying Landrover type vehicles etc. BR solved that by having a mixture of both double deck Cartic and car flat type vehicles on certain Anglo-Scottish Motorail/Car Sleeper services.

That's right you gave the dimensions of your vehicle when you booked they would then put you on flat wagons tied down if the vehicle was too high, VW dormobiles for instance.

 

[atillathehunn]

The one remaining motorail service in the Netherlands has just finished. It used to run from Den Bosch to Italy and Switzerland but has ceased operation. The autoslaaptrein always looked quite well used, but only anecdotal.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Okehampton not Penzance....

Wasn't that a steam hauled (Bullied Pacific) car carrier service?

 

[DarloRich]

In the 60s and 70s it took at least 8 hours to drive from West Sussex to Plymouth on a good day. Today it is no more than 4 hours even with the A303 as it is.

It took 5 hours to do Helston - Exeter on Monday this week! hock:

In fantasy world loading the car onto the train near Penzance and unloading it in Birmingham or London or Glasgow would be superb, but how many once/twice a year users like me would you need to at least break even?

 

[Andrewlong]

I would invite private operators to come forward with proposals. If there ain't any money in it they won't do it.

 

[Bald Rick]

It took 5 hours to do Helston - Exeter on Monday this week! hock:

In fantasy world loading the car onto the train near Penzance and unloading it in Birmingham or London or Glasgow would be superb, but how many once/twice a year users like me would you need to at least break even?

The more pertinent question is how much would the once /twice a year, (weekends in spring, summer), users be prepared to pay to make it at least break even. Bearing in mind the necessary investment in handling infrastructure. And I think you'd be looking at four figures.

 

[DarloRich]

The more pertinent question is how much would the once /twice a year, (weekends in spring, summer), users be prepared to pay to make it at least break even. Bearing in mind the necessary investment in handling infrastructure. And I think you'd be looking at four figures.

agreed - i don't think for one moment there is any future in this sort of service. In fantasy world such things don't matter

 

[Greenback]

agreed - i don't think for one moment there is any future in this sort of service. In fantasy world such things don't matter

The price and demand would be linked, but there would be a limit to the amount of possible demand for any such service. If I remember my A level Economics properly from 30 plus years ago, it's called elasticity or something like that. Anyway, there wouldn't be much elasticity for this type of service!

 

[work-traveller]

At least the old stock is being used for something

 

[trubla]

I remember using the service back in the late '70's from Birmingham International to Inverness. Return journey was interesting as a 47 had jumped the points at Bushbury Jct so the train was divereted through Wolverhampton Station then onto Bescot and normal route. I do remember that when I rove away from Inverness had to find a car wash so that I could see through the winscreen!WAsn't so bad on the return trip.

 

[EssexGonzo]

I'ved used both French and Belgian Motorail in the past and loved the service, although it was a little pricey. Better roads and cheaper flights / hire cars have changed all of that. As has the growth of Brit-friendly hotel chains to break the journey such as Accor, easily viewed and booked via the internet rather than having to phone them and overcome the language issues. I remember the family stress of trying to find a hotel for the night one August for 5 people. We didn't find one and had to sleep in the car.

I also seem to recall that hiring a car in France or Italy was more stressful 20+ years ago and there was a greater chance of being ripped off for non-existent damage by the hire company than there is now.

But another large factor has to be that cars are so much better now that in the Motorail era. You wouldn't hesitate to take a Fiesta to Italy, let alone Scotland or Cornwall, nowadays - more reliable, more economical, will cruise at the Autoroute limit all day long and they all have A/C which was a major source of discomfort in Italy when I was strapped in the back of a Cortina with two brothers. Which broke down often.

As others have said, the need just isn't there, home or abroad.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It still thrives , it's called "Le Shuttle"

I think that given the collapse of our Motorway network, the 50mph speed limits and that our road network just cannot cope with the current flows of traffic, there could be a market for some "motor-rail" networks.....

Just out of interest when did the Motorway network collapse? I use our Motorway network on a regular basis and most of the time it seems to work pretty well. A lot less lorries on the Motorways would be great but to be honest that's little more than a pipe dream at the moment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there was a service to Cornwall, I'd definitely use it. Last time we took the train and hired a car, they tried to charge us twice, didn't have the 2 child seats we had booked and paid for and took nearly a month to refund us our deposit!!!!!

Regards,

Adam

So why not just try a different hire car company next time? Unless you hired a car for the entire time you were there it would still work out cheaper even if a Motorail service was reintroduced.