Could Motorail have a future?

[Masbroughlad]

I have seen a few pictures of Motorail recently and it continued much later than I expected. When did it actually end? I have seen some FGW pics in 2000.

Given the ever more busy road and motorway network, could some flows run as a commercial proposition? I think if marketed in an attractive way, it could win customers back. Those who drive long distances, those who see driving as a chore, those tired of sitting in traffic - but all of these need their car for local trips at the end.

Which routes do people think could work viably?
Could any TOC run them as an add on now? Either cars travel on a separate train or transported behind passenger vehicles?
Could an entrepreneurial Open Access Operator provide a service? Either just transporting cars or again, passenger vehicles and cars? If this happened, how would it be classified - freight, passenger or mixed traffic?
Indeed, would mixed traffic be allowed on today's railways?
Is any infrastructure (loading ramps etc) still in situ anywhere? Or could anything be built/rebuilt as a low cost option?

I could see a service being used heavily in Summer months on some routes. There would possibly be some users out of season too?

Would need lots of thought and planning, but could it be doable?

(If I remember correctly, a company mooted the idea of a London to Scotland service via the East Coast in fairly recent times. I can't remember who. If anyone can recall this, would be good to know!)

Moderators please move if thread in wrong place

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say no - it's more likely that car hire and car clubs would provide a car at the destination than it making sense to expend huge amounts of energy moving your own car there.

 

[Greenback]

No future at all, I'm afraid. Taking your car on to a train only made sense when the motorway network was either in its infancy or was still being built. A long drive would have been the norm on the old A roads, without many bypasses, and sufficient people wished to avoid such a drive to make such a service worthwhile.

As has been said, why you want to stick your car on to a train rather than drive yourself, or hire one at your destination?

 

[NSEFAN]

If we had the loading gauge and capacity for it, I would say there may be a market instead for rolling highways to get lorries off the roads. This would much more likely pay for itself than the seasonal traffic you mention.

 

[misterredmist]

It still thrives , it's called "Le Shuttle"

I think that given the collapse of our Motorway network, the 50mph speed limits and that our road network just cannot cope with the current flows of traffic, there could be a market for some "motor-rail" networks.....

but it will never happen , due to the cost of implementing and the required infrastructure, and guess what ! we'd al; end up in a traffic jam trying to reach the relevant motor-rail terminal anyway

 

[Greenback]

Whatever market there might be is too small to warrant a Motorail service. If someone wants to avoid the drive they will more likely take the train and leave the car behind.

 

[adamskiodp]

If there was a service to Cornwall, I'd definitely use it. Last time we took the train and hired a car, they tried to charge us twice, didn't have the 2 child seats we had booked and paid for and took nearly a month to refund us our deposit!!!!!

Regards,

Adam

 

[matt_world2004]

If we say got 300mph London to Scotland trains that could also carry cars. Then maybe.however current train speeds mean for most journeys they are not quicker than a car once you factor in most of the time trains will not get you to your final destination like a car would.

 

[DarloRich]

Could Motorail have a future?

None whatsoever - From a time when motorways were not as well developed as today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It still thrives , it's called "Le Shuttle"

But I reckon that would die tomorrow if another tunnel was built through which you could drive your car.

 

[Be3G]

I have to say that when I was younger, my mother and I would definitely have used Motorail for holidaying in the furthest reaches of Cornwall from London. Even the car drivers in my family have always preferred the train for long-distance journeys (particularly with some cheap 1st class apexes/advances), but a car would have been handy for exploring the more difficult-to-reach towns and villages. I don't think my mother was keen on hiring a vehicle as she'd heard/read plenty of horror stories about it.

So being able to take her own car with her without actually needing to drive for hours on end would have been perfect really!

 

[Johnuk123]

Used it about 10 times and it was great, doubt it will ever return but if it did I would definitely use it assuming it went to where I wanted to go.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps we need a sticky thread to answer this question and the similar 'could we see sleeper services to the continent?' question. They both crop up often enough.

And the answer is the same - Motorail lost pots of money in the years before it closed, absolutely no chance of it starting again.

 

[me123]

I think there could be some markets where motorail would work, but it would be so limited that the benefits would far outweigh the costs.

I can think of, for example, routes to the South West of England being popular in the Summer. Drive to the motorail terminal, drive your car on, get a sleeper for the night, and wake up ready to drive to your destination. You miss the M5 on a Bank Holiday weekend. Sounds great, and a very similar idea seems to work in the notoriously public-transport-phobic US of A with their daily Autotrain service between Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL. I would say that this is a broadly similar route idea - aimed at holidaymakers traveling with their car to a popular holiday destination. Allegedly, the AutoTrain is one of Amtrak's few profitable services.

One thing you'll notice about that service, of course, is that neither location is particularly big, and indeed they are both purpose-built out-of-town facilities, the likes of which don't exist here. And here's the problem. The attraction wanes significantly if you have to drive into Bristol/Newcastle/Edinburgh/other big city location to get to the train. For better or worse, the network is currently very London-centric, and I can't imagine anywhere worse to drive as a visitor than London!

Since we are looking at the leisure market, I doubt that we'll be supporting daily services year round. It would be more likely, given our climate and culture, to be weekend only services in the Summer. At which point, the benefits of providing the infrastructure would decrease quite significantly. We'd need new stations capable of handling cars boarding motorail carriages. We'd need the carriages themselves. We'd need new carriages; sleeper coaches if it was to be an overnight service, if not new LHCS. We'd need to path this service through an already busy rail network. And, in reality, the number of cars you're going to take off the road is going to be so limited that I can't really see it making any difference to congestion.

So, whilst I could see a limited market, I highly doubt that there's any money to be made running just a few services a year. So sadly, no. I don't think motorail has a future in this country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I reckon that would die tomorrow if another tunnel was built through which you could drive your car.

Not going to happen in the foreseeable future in all fairness - see the daily newspaper articles about immigrants walking through the rail tunnel etc.

 

[OneOffDave]

We used it twice when I was young to go from Olympia to Inverness. Even now I'm not sure I'd want to do that drive all the way as it's 9-10 hours without stops.

As a kid it was a fantastic trip

 

[Aldaniti]

Without hesitation, I'd use a North West to Cornwall service if it ran (Newton le Willows to St Austell would suit me fine ).

I travel to Cornwall once a year and until a few years ago used The Cornish Scot service. When XC became Voyagers, I travelled to London and caught a HST from Paddington, very nice, but in the last couple of years the price of first class advance tickets has been relatively high, or there has been poor availability, so I've driven. I would however pay a reasonable three figure sum to take my car on an enclosed Motorail service, purely to save half a day on the motorway. But I do agree that commercially, it probably wouldn't work out. No way on earth would I put my car on those flat wagons that BR used to use. I think flying ballast and damage to cars might have been half the reason they ended the service!

 

[Greenback]

I think there could be some markets where motorail would work, but it would be so limited that the benefits would far outweigh the costs.

I'm sure you meant to say that the costs would outweigh the benefits!

There are undoubtedly people who might use a Motorail service. I might even use it myself if there were a suitable train from the Bristol or south Wales area to Scotland. And therein lies the real problem. Even if such a service were to be introduced, how much would it cost in order for it to make a profit, where would it terminate and would the answers tot hose two questions serve to suppress what little demand there is?

To expand, if it would cost £1000 to transport a car plus two passengers to Glasgow Central, not only would that be too much for me to pay, but I wouldn't want to be dumped in the centre of Glasgow if I were heading further north, as to drive through and out of the city again would be something I'd want to avoid!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The services are losing money in Europe on much longer hauls, in Britain there is unlikely to be enough demand and with so much competition in car rentals, it will become even less interesting to most people.

The deliberate attempts to make driving in London unattractive and costly will also have an impact since most long distance journeys start or end there.

Although Motorrail for Renault Twizys might be an idea, just need a luggage van and a few strong men to lift it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The services are losing money in Europe on much longer hauls, in Britain there is unlikely to be enough demand and with so much competition in car rentals, it will become even less interesting to most people.

The deliberate attempts to make driving in London unattractive and costly will also have an impact since most long distance journeys start or end there.

Although Motorrail for Renault Twizys might be an idea, just need a luggage van and a few strong men to lift it.

For some reason, that reminds me of a story my cousin once told me about a bunch of chavs hiding in the disabled toilet of a 458 with a mini-motorbike!

 

[ess]

I expect the next version of Motorail will not be trains but more like Google driverless cars. The benefit of trains is likely to change when that becomes a reality, but I guess it will have more impact on the taxi industry.

 

[LateThanNever]

If we had the loading gauge and capacity for it, I would say there may be a market instead for rolling highways to get lorries off the roads. This would much more likely pay for itself than the seasonal traffic you mention.

At last!
A use for HS2!

 

[Argosy]

The other issue is terminal capacity. There is no where really in Glasgow to get the car off.

Getting out of Glasgow is quite easy. Only hellish at 5-6pm at night.

 

[Western Lord]

Would there be custom for motorail today? Almost certainly yes. Would there be enough custom to pay for the loading stations, rolling stock, traction, track access? No. Distances in the UK are too short for motorail to be truly competitive. There is no comparison with Amtrak's Autotrain as that runs between places about a thousand miles apart. Hardly any journeys by road in the UK would require an overnight stop, which leaves avoiding congestion or the tedium of motorway driving as the only selling points. There may be a market on a few weekends a year for a service from a station near the M25 to Cornwall, but not enough to justify the costs.

 

[edwin_m]

On a railway with limited capacity, which is better at getting cars off the road: 12 people on a train or one car with its passengers (in seats elsewhere on the train). The two would take up about the same amount of train length.

There aren't enough people travelling by train and needing cars the other end to justify putting car hire outlets on stations (with a few exceptions which are probably there for other reasons), let alone to organise a Motorail service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Back when there were motorail services, who were the users?

I'm 60 now and = don't remember them ever being a mass market product - they never appeared to be something the general population ever used, presumably unaffordable for many...

Would be interesting if someone knows the typical fare for the car add-on, and could index it up to date using 'rail fare inflation'...

 

[route:oxford]

We used it twice when I was young to go from Olympia to Inverness. Even now I'm not sure I'd want to do that drive all the way as it's 9-10 hours without stops.

As a kid it was a fantastic trip

It's a fairly easy drive though, in fact, I think it could be the longest (direct) drives you can do in the country without slowing down or stopping (unless you choose tolls). Leave London and your first roundabout is at Keir nr Dunblane.

 

[CallySleeper]

Considering how motorail worked 20-30 years ago, I'm not sure how it would be compatible with current MU working.

 

[theageofthetra]

Something which could work are small electric cars that are picked up/returned at stations & are part of your overall ticket. There must be plenty of business travellers who go to a city and then use/expense multiple cab journeys in often old high emmision cars.I am sure I saw something like this with electric Smart cars in Europe?

 

[ainsworth74]

Would be interesting if someone knows the typical fare for the car add-on, and could index it up to date using 'rail fare inflation'...

A member (not me unfortunately!) recently picked up a motorail leaflet from the early 80s advertising the service and it's costs. Hopefully if they see this they'll be able to post such information!

I do remember thinking that it didn't seem particular cheap even by today's standards!

 

[Johnuk123]

The other issue is terminal capacity. There is no where really in Glasgow to get the car off.

Getting out of Glasgow is quite easy. Only hellish at 5-6pm at night.

There is no where in the whole of Glasgow to build a small motorail depot, really ?

You only need 2 sidings, I'm sure that wouldn't be too difficult.