Could Motorail have a future?

[Daz28]

Not everyone drives a car.

A summer service which loads at Folkestone at the Eurotunnel terminal, and takes motor homes to the South of France or Italian border would be very useful.

 

[30907]

Or at least at Calais, which is more realistic, and used to be the case. Unfortunately, it lost money even with double deck car carriers (which can't take motorhomes).

 

[RichmondCommu]

it would have to be run at a loss like it was under BR. Only a company who would be prepared to operate it like that would it work in this privatised rail system.

And if its running at a whacking great loss and is non essential then whats the point? I don't think a Motorail service could ever be considered essential in this country.
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Not everyone drives a car.

A summer service which loads at Folkestone at the Eurotunnel terminal, and takes motor homes to the South of France or Italian border would be very useful.

How many motor homes are heading down to the Med?

 

[Greenback]

it would have to be run at a loss like it was under BR. Only a company who would be prepared to operate it like that would it work in this privatised rail system.

I am struggling to understand how a loss making service could survive at all on the privatised railway.

What sort of company would be happy to invest a lot of moeny and see absolutely no return on it whatsoever? How would their shareholders feel at all this cash being poured down the train?

Such a niche service would never be subsidised, certainly not while there are being cuts made to just about everything else in the government budgets.

Not everyone drives a car.

A summer service which loads at Folkestone at the Eurotunnel terminal, and takes motor homes to the South of France or Italian border would be very useful.

It would be of some use to a very small number of people, and, I suggest at very few times of the year.

It's not a viable business proposition.

 

[Tibbs]

<snip>

What sort of company would be happy to invest a lot of moeny and see absolutely no return on it whatsoever? How would their shareholders feel at all this cash being poured down the train?

<snip>

I see what you did there, very good!

 

[Greenback]

Thank you!

 

[physics34]

I am struggling to understand how a loss making service could survive at all on the privatised railway.

What sort of company would be happy to invest a lot of moeny and see absolutely no return on it whatsoever? How would their shareholders feel at all this cash being poured down the train?

Such a niche service would never be subsidised, certainly not while there are being cuts made to just about everything else in the government budgets.

.

That's exactly it. It would have to run as a niche service.... Almost as a source of publicity.... (Look at us at virgin trains, we run a motorail service, aren't we good...for example) knowing that it would lose money. And like you say it won't be subsidised. You can't even really say that it would be 'greener' as they don't carry enough cars.The affect is minimal.

 

[Greenback]

The problem is that the shareholders of Virgin, or any similar company, would need to be convinced that the publicity generated translates into additional revenue somewhere else in the company.

I would take a hell of a lot of convincing were I a shareholder! Any falls in the share price because of dissatisfaction, especially in the companies that own the brand, would be keenly felt. It's a complete non starter, even as a loss leader.

 

[edwin_m]

That's exactly it. It would have to run as a niche service.... Almost as a source of publicity.... (Look at us at virgin trains, we run a motorail service, aren't we good...for example) knowing that it would lose money. And like you say it won't be subsidised. You can't even really say that it would be 'greener' as they don't carry enough cars.The affect is minimal.

There are plenty of loss-making services, in fact by most measures almost all rail services are loss-making. In the franchise bidding process the operator agrees to run a bundle of services for a certain subsidy. Sometimes it's a premium instead, but that will disappear with the forthcoming switch of Network Rail's direct grant to go through the TOCs instead.

So basically it is down to the government to decide that a particular service is worth having, include it in the specification for a franchise, and then pay accordingly during the franchise term. In my view a Motorail service would not be a sensible use of either taxpayers' money or scarce rail capacity.

 

[Greenback]

No sane government is ever going to agree to put money towards such a service. If a TOC wants to run it, it will be as open access, or at their own risk. That's why it won't happen!

 

[telstarbox]

Also, are domestic flights now more affordable using low-cost carriers than they would have been when Motorail was running?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not everyone drives a car.

A summer service which loads at Folkestone at the Eurotunnel terminal, and takes motor homes to the South of France or Italian border would be very useful.

People who use motorhomes often tend to do so for multi-centre holidays and making the journey part of the holiday. So just make the journey down to Italy part of the holiday with some stop-offs. Or you can hire one.

I think in the end short term car hire/car clubs could be integrated better with the railway in many locations, and that would deal with near enough all use-cases for Motorail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, are domestic flights now more affordable using low-cost carriers than they would have been when Motorail was running?

Yes, but the UK doesn't have all that many of them. The main killer has been the motorway network - driving really isn't that bad an experience for most relevant journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm off to Scotland next week. Have hired a mid sized estate car in Edinburgh for £70 for 3 days. I have a choice of trains out and back, all sub 5 hours. I can turn up 3 minutes before departure.

Given the likely juourney time, frequency, check in requirements, and need to drive into Central London ... Even if motorail was free, I wouldn't be using it.

 

[Greenback]

Motorail was on it's knees long before the advent of budget airlines. Motorway construction and other road improvements such as bypasses have cut down driving times massively since the 1960's despite increased traffic congestion. Improvements to the comfort, fuel economy and reliability of cars hasn't helped either.

 

[po8crg]

Motorail (and other such car-transports) is predicated on the idea that having your own car at the other end is better than a hire car. If hiring cars is cheaper than the additional transport costs of transporting a car and hire cars are a high-quality experience, then transporting a car no longer seems as attractive.

I do think that sometimes people drive in order to shift a large amount of luggage, and having a checked-bag-with-transfers system on trains would be very attractive. Of course, that would require through-ticketing to work properly.

 

[Greenback]

Driving is more attractive to many people who have large amounts of luggage, children, or both to transport. The idea that you can get into your car in your own driveway and get out at again at your destination point is attractive, and far more so than having to get tot he station, check your bag, travel to wherever you're going, retrieve your luggage and then get to your hotel, B&B, cottage or whatever.

It's another niche market. Attractive for a few, yes, but probably not at all viable.

 

[DeeGee]

I do think that sometimes people drive in order to shift a large amount of luggage, and having a checked-bag-with-transfers system on trains would be very attractive. Of course, that would require through-ticketing to work properly.

I've just got back from a family holiday, a fortnight in Austria, with my wife, our 5 year old, and his Granny. We actually managed to get our clothing into a carry-on bag each, but with a small box of toys for the boy and various other things, we filled the boot and the roof-rack. It was 12 hours' drving each way, and if we'd had to take towels and linen I'm not sure how we'd have done it. We needed a car at the other end, though, and we just couldn't have had everything we wanted if we'd flown out of Manchester instead.

 

[stopblock]

It would be a nice idea but the cost of the journey alone would probably kill it. As a caravan owner I try to plan our breaks so as to avoid the traffic if I can. We want to tour Scotland in it but would need 2 days to get up and backfrom my part of the country so thats 2 days of setting everything up. Motor Rail would cut that all out but I certainly wouldnt wish to have my caravan on a motor rail vehicle unless it was covered over.

 

[po8crg]

I've just got back from a family holiday, a fortnight in Austria, with my wife, our 5 year old, and his Granny. We actually managed to get our clothing into a carry-on bag each, but with a small box of toys for the boy and various other things, we filled the boot and the roof-rack. It was 12 hours' drving each way, and if we'd had to take towels and linen I'm not sure how we'd have done it. We needed a car at the other end, though, and we just couldn't have had everything we wanted if we'd flown out of Manchester instead.

I've taken a train to Austria from Manchester - well, to be accurate, I took four trains (changing in London, Brussels and Cologne). It takes about the same amount of time as driving. Bit longer if you take the sleeper like I did, but you get to sleep on the train so it doesn't chew up a whole day.

I suspect that if you could have dropped off a trunk or two in Manchester (or, even better, if someone had collected them from your house) and someone else had been responsible for getting them onto each of those trains, then riding the train might have been a possible alternative to driving. But there's no luggage van any more to carry stuff in. So that's not going to work. And wrangling suitcases between trains is fine if you're a single adult like me - but deeply unattractive if you've got a 5 year old as well.

You'd still have to rent a car at the other end, of course.

But I can't see anyone managing to get the luggage transport working - without luggage vans and luggage handlers on platforms like there were in the nineteenth century, there isn't the infrastructure to get the stuff there, so you'd have to pay to recreate it. I doubt there's the demand.

Ah well, pipe dream....

 

[matacaster]

Around 10 years ago used French equivalent from Calais to South of France. Boarded in evening, in South of France following morning. Car transported on train, we in couchettes on same train. Cost £700. Great, but the fare ouch!

 

[Bald Rick]

Around 10 years ago used French equivalent from Calais to South of France. Boarded in evening, in South of France following morning. Car transported on train, we in couchettes on same train. Cost £700. Great, but the fare ouch!

And it still lost money.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think people would pay the true cost even if they considered the 'cost' of driving for such a long time, petrol, extra wear and tear, having to potentially drive on unfamiliar roads, hotel stays etc.

We used to use the Harwich to Esbjerg ferry as it was a nice way to save a lot of driving, have a bit of a break, but it wasn't cheap. And that got axed (albeit for a few different reasons that all came together to make it unviable).

When going on a 2-3 week holiday, it's nice to pack the car up with stuff, not pack it all up in suitcases, haul it onto a plane, then off, then to a hire car and the same when coming back.

A motorail service though parts of Europe, perhaps for really long journeys west to east and vice versa, where the costs in the first paragraph mount up more, could have a market - but, again, I don't think people would accept the cost even if it was cheaper overall.

 

[Greenback]

A motorail service though parts of Europe, perhaps for really long journeys west to east and vice versa, where the costs in the first paragraph mount up more, could have a market - but, again, I don't think people would accept the cost even if it was cheaper overall.

That's the real problem. There are few people in the first place who'd use the service, and some of those will be priced off it due to the costs of using it compared to the alternatives.

The remaining market is too small to sustain the service without the price of it becoming so high that it will extinguish the demand almost completely. Or the service going bust.

 

[DeeGee]

We used to use the Harwich to Esbjerg ferry as it was a nice way to save a lot of driving, have a bit of a break, but it wasn't cheap.

Past two summers I've gone from Hull. On both occasions it was appoximately the same amount of driving from Zeebrugge/Rotterdam as from Calais, but I was more than happy to pay the (substantial) premium to save the drive from Grimsby to somewhere in the south the night before. As I see it, I'd have to have a night's hotel anyway, plus I save sixty or seventy quid's petrol, so I'm maybe realistically looking at 200 notes to get to Dover and back. It was more than 200 quid's difference to go from Hull, but the relaxation of spending 14 hours enforced break on a boat rather than park-sleep-drive is well worth it.

I'd happily use Motorail in Europe if it was more widespread, but I realise that it really isn't viable. Certainly, as far as the UK is concerned, for me in my privileged position in the middle of the country there are very few places I can't get to in the UK without an overnight stop.

Overnight passenger trains, however, are a different matter. I'd be all over those like a rash.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd happily use Motorail in Europe if it was more widespread, but I realise that it really isn't viable.

The issue is - at what price does Motorail become not viable for you? Same applies to overnight services also.

I'm reasonably certain that demand for sleepers in this country would be close to zero if ticket prices reflected the full cost of service provision, given the alternatives available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm reasonably certain that demand for sleepers in this country would be close to zero if ticket prices reflected the full cost of service provision, given the alternatives available.

Particularly if VWC were to add some very late night and early morning Pendolinos, competing with the red-eye flights, but at a lower price than Sleepers.

 

[6Gman]

I suspect that if you could have dropped off a trunk or two in Manchester (or, even better, if someone had collected them from your house) and someone else had been responsible for getting them onto each of those trains, then riding the train might have been a possible alternative to driving. But there's no luggage van any more to carry stuff in. So that's not going to work. And wrangling suitcases between trains is fine if you're a single adult like me - but deeply unattractive if you've got a 5 year old as well.

Ah well, pipe dream....

I sent a large suitcase by PLA once (Passengers' Luggage in Advance). It was good value, and quick. Shame it arrived with a b****y big hole in it! Didn't matter too much since it was just dirty washing heading home from Uni (!). If it had been my holiday clothing, or worse still my wife's holiday clothing, on the way out ... would have been a different matter!

 

[The Ham]

I think that Moto Rail has had it's day as there are so many places from where you can hire a car, meaning that less people will NEED to have their own car at the other end. Of course the difficulty of driving in central London (where one end of the old Moto Rail services ran too) would also be a major stumbling block to it restarting.

I could see a service where you could book a train ticket including car hire from your destination station being popular, especially if there were options for different lengths of hire (more like a car club model).

However there will always be people who have a large amount of stuff they want to take with them for whom going the whole way by car is the only viable option. However, even for these people Moto Rail would only be viable (even ignoring costs) for very few of them.

Also how many people would be willing to cover the cost of about 10 tickets to cover the cost that their car takes up on the length of a train which could otherwise be occupied in a standard class coach. As an example London to Glasgow on an off peak train ticket is £133, meaning to have the same level of income a TOC would have to charge £1,330 (assuming a 70% occupancy rate of a standard passenger train). For that price you can buy 5 return train tickets to Glasgow still have enough left over to hire a Focus for a fortnight!

Yes there maybe time when trains are quieter and so the ticket price could be lower, but then it would still have to cover the cost of the infrastructure and rolling stock which would otherwise be lightly used.

 

[camperdown9]

It still thrives , it's called "Le Shuttle"

But I reckon that would die tomorrow if another tunnel was built through which you could drive your car.

I use Eurotunnel (as Le Shuttle now call themselves) every month and have done so for the last 7 years. Their biggest issue with them is that it takes so long to go from check in to driving onto a train. there are queues for passport, for security and then just waiting times at the terminal car park and then more waiting in line before you get directed to board the train. If they or another operator could cut the time it takes in Calais or Folkestone down then they would have a great product.

As for the traditional Motorail style service it would need to be cheap, quick and reliable. When I was a travel agent in the 90's the people who operated the French Motorail product came and had a training afternoon. They had through fares with the ferry operators. (In other words a client could buy a ticket that included the ferry and train ticket together). However it was still way to expensive .

Alex

 

[mirodo]

Maybe the 442s could be converted for use as Motorail?

(runs and hides)