Could Motorail have a future?

[Ash Bridge]

If there was a service to Cornwall, I'd definitely use it. Last time we took the train and hired a car, they tried to charge us twice, didn't have the 2 child seats we had booked and paid for and took nearly a month to refund us our deposit!!!!!

Regards,

Adam

Up until 1993 I always travelled by car to Cornwall for our summer holiday, since then we started to go by train and collect a hire car at our arrival station, would never dream of going by road again always had a smooth easy journey down (even on XC Voyagers) and for the past 17 years have used the same car hire company, consistently the cheapest (£190 this year for a 2 week rental)virtually brand new cars every time, and during the years our daughter needed a child seat they waived the extra charge, plus service with a smile, this is based on rentals from Exeter St David's Station, if you need details of the rental company
contact me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because there are literally SO MANY Eurostars running through HS1
Don't most of them stop anyway?
The CTRL crosses the M25 around kilometre 20 - some 79km from the tunnel.
At the 140km/h it would take 34 minutes - (we must assume that the chunnel train would cover the extra distance at that speed as it would not slow towards the end of the tunnel).
At 300km/h and instant acceleration it takes 16 minutes, so more like 18 I would think.
So I think you would probably need some quad track, but not really that much since you would likely be able to manage with one dynamic loop and a short section on approach to the terminal.


I am pretty sure most of the cost of security, maintaining ticketing facilities, the costs of running the chunnel itself and stuff like that.
A longer line haul is not likely to cost as much as the average of the current chunnel journey.

You could probably also manage a higher top speed than the puny 140kph if the run was longer.

What about all the blue trains? Or is this going to be an occasional service in the off peak, when the M20 is relatively empty?

Most of the cost of the tunnel is servicing the rather large debt. Which would be even rather larger if HS1 was 4 track.

 

[30907]

Wasn't that a steam hauled (Bullied Pacific) car carrier service?

Yes it was.

 

[Greenback]

I'ved used both French and Belgian Motorail in the past and loved the service, although it was a little pricey. Better roads and cheaper flights / hire cars have changed all of that. As has the growth of Brit-friendly hotel chains to break the journey such as Accor, easily viewed and booked via the internet rather than having to phone them and overcome the language issues. I remember the family stress of trying to find a hotel for the night one August for 5 people. We didn't find one and had to sleep in the car.

You've hit on something there that has also contributed to why people won't want to put their car on a train in sufficient numbers these days. It's so much easier and cheaper now to hire a car at your destination, or to break a long journey up by staying at family friendly, reasonably priced and convenient accommodation en route. The internet has alss made the process of finding and booking a hotel much simpler. That goes for the UKL as well as on the continent.

But another large factor has to be that cars are so much better now that in the Motorail era. You wouldn't hesitate to take a Fiesta to Italy, let alone Scotland or Cornwall, nowadays - more reliable, more economical, will cruise at the Autoroute limit all day long and they all have A/C which was a major source of discomfort in Italy when I was strapped in the back of a Cortina with two brothers. Which broke down often.

Again, I agree. In 1973, when my dad had a second hand Ford Escort, a long drive to Scotland would have been unthinkable, due to comfort and not knowing whether the car would make it in one piece!

As others have said, the need just isn't there, home or abroad.

Quite. There is not going to be more than a handful of drivers who would even think about it, nowhere near enough to make such a service viable.

 

[bavvo]

Hmm, looking at those FGW motorail vans, even for a misty eyed romantic like me I have to question the logic. That looks like a 30 tonne wagon to haul a roughly 6 tonne payload (3 cars), plus you would need additional seated/sleeper carriages for the passengers. I wonder if it would actually break even just on pure energy costs versus driving those same vehicles on the road? Presumably there is a break even point somewhere if enough wagons are involved and enough distance, but how many, 10? 20?

Having said that, I would probably use a service like that to get to Scotland if it ran again, but I don't expect it ever will.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Hmm, looking at those FGW motorail vans, even for a misty eyed romantic like me I have to question the logic. That looks like a 30 tonne wagon to haul a roughly 6 tonne payload (3 cars), plus you would need additional seated/sleeper carriages for the passengers. I wonder if it would actually break even just on pure energy costs versus driving those same vehicles on the road? Presumably there is a break even point somewhere if enough wagons are involved and enough distance, but how many, 10? 20?

Having said that, I would probably use a service like that to get to Scotland if it ran again, but I don't expect it ever will.

Not absolutely certain, but I think those FGW motorail vans are rebuilt mk1 BG vans so only around 57ft/17m in lenth, something similar in dimensions to a mk3 would manage 4/5 vehicles depending on car variants.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It seems strange to ask whether Motorail has a future when it doesn't appear to have much of a present...

Hmm, looking at those FGW motorail vans, even for a misty eyed romantic like me I have to question the logic. That looks like a 30 tonne wagon to haul a roughly 6 tonne payload (3 cars), plus you would need additional seated/sleeper carriages for the passengers. I wonder if it would actually break even just on pure energy costs versus driving those same vehicles on the road? Presumably there is a break even point somewhere if enough wagons are involved and enough distance, but how many, 10? 20?

Having said that, I would probably use a service like that to get to Scotland if it ran again, but I don't expect it ever will.

In the last years of operation, those fully-enclosed Motorail vans were used solely in conjunction with the Night Riviera, and only during the Summer. As you say, 3 cars per coach doesn't seem very efficient, and considering that at the time, the Riviera dropped a portion at Plymouth with the associated shunting required it really is no surprise that it didn't last. For one thing, I can't imagine there could be any more than 3/4 motorail vans on any sleeper leaving Paddington without the train being too long, so basically a maximum of 12 sleeper passengers/groups were able to take their car with them.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I guess they were at their height when service dictated the railway rather than accounts...... Come on Jeremy Corbyn, bring back Motorail! (tongue firmly in cheek).

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>

Again, I agree. In 1973, when my dad had a second hand Ford Escort, a long drive to Scotland would have been unthinkable, due to comfort and not knowing whether the car would make it in one piece!

.

where as most cars , even 10 year old ones on the road today would do that journey easily and theonly 'top up' you may need is a the washer bottle bottle if it;s grotty weather or loads of insects are out ..

 

[Greenback]

where as most cars , even 10 year old ones on the road today would do that journey easily and theonly 'top up' you may need is a the washer bottle bottle if it;s grotty weather or loads of insects are out ..

Thinking about it, I remember he tried to drive it down to Ringwood and it conked out in Pyle!

 

[HSTEd]

What about all the blue trains? Or is this going to be an occasional service in the off peak, when the M20 is relatively empty?

The class 395s are slower than the Eurostars and make at least two stops along the section of route I am proposing to use - this makes them less of a problem, especially given the dynamic loops I am proposing.

Most of the cost of the tunnel is servicing the rather large debt. Which would be even rather larger if HS1 was 4 track.

But the parts of HS1 I am proposing to 4 track, these dynamic loops, are all in areas where it would be (relatively) cheap to 4 track if it had been built that way.
Most of the cost of the CTRL/Chunnel was the Chunnel itself and the London approach - these are not areas I am proposing to change.
Experience in the US shows that these sort of trains (TOFC and similar) is capable of obtaining 90mph - which given that it will be a continuous green light run from Calais all the way to the M25 terminal will improve the timings considerably. Experience with very large vehicles [Superliners et al] in North America indicates that an enclosed vehicle formation like a tunnel shuttle (the Lorry shuttles could be enclosed but aren't as there is no need for them to be) could probably push to a hundred miles per hour - which would simplify things considerably as it wouldn't be much slower than the 395 services once stops are included.
Especially as it is a bottom transport which means there is room between the bogies for traction equipment - so we can go to a multiple unit formation if necessary.
Hell MU operation probably saves several minutes even without speed improvements thanks to taking off like a scalded cat.

The great advantage of 25kV electrification is we can essentially have as much power as we want on a train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pop into Ashford IECC, and look at the live train graph, and you'll see there's as much room for daytime shuttles on HS1 as there is for daytime freight. Even with dynamic loops (which would have to be over 30km long for a 300kph train to overtake a 160kmh train on minimum margin; they wouldn't quite fit in between the North Downs Tunnel and Ashford).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The great advantage of 25kV electrification is we can essentially have as much power as we want on a train.

No you can't. You can have as much power as the feeder we've installed is capable of providing before it trips out (or blows up). We in turn can have as much power as the grid connection is capable of providing before it trips out.

We fit 132kV/25kV or 400kV/25kV transformers, depending on the incoming National Grid connection, the MVA (output) of each transformer will depend on the capability of the grid in a particular location and the demand in the area.

Demand is calculated on current and future traffic demands and rolling stock power requirements, with a generous helping of spare capacity. When that's used up, as we've found with IEP and replacing diesel HST sets with electric (bi-mode) sets, you add more feeders and go for a 25-0-25 autotransformer setup where throwing more feeders gets to be a bit silly.

That's why we've got a new feeder at Ryhall in Rutland, and that's why there's a new feeder going in at Ardsley, and ATF kit between London and Donny.

 

[NSEFAN]

I think the point was that you can have much higher traction power when using 25kV OLE rather than say 3rd rail. Having sufficient substation capacity goes without saying but there comes a point when you can't tell the difference between a train and a short circuit, and you reach that point much later when you have 25kV to play with!

 

[po8crg]

The great advantage of 25kV electrification is we can essentially have as much power as we want on a train.

Now, there's a thought. Motorail that recharges electric cars.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Now, there's a thought. Motorail that recharges electric cars.

Oooooh......you might just have something there. It depends on the forecast developments in range and charging technology over the next 20 or 30 years. With the average range of pure electric cars around the 100 mile mark, charging taking 2 to 4 hours at a fast charger (and queues already occurring at said public chargers even with only the 37 electric cars we have on UK roads right now), I can see the appeal. Especially if you want to take your electric car on holiday.

But.....the business case would be heavily dependent upon a pessimistic view of technology development (as I guess it was in the "old"days) and some sort of tipping point in the ownership of electric cars. Which has to be a long way from where we are now.

 

[po8crg]

I think that improvements in the reliability of cars mean people are much more prepared to hire a car rather than insisting on bringing their own.

 

[Pigeon]

I remember there being a Motorail dock at Worcester Shrub Hill, and a Beck-style Motorail service map on the wall indicating really quite a lot of destinations. One or two covered vans. The dock has now been filled in and is used as a car parking area. Were the service to be reinstated it could still use the similar docks at the other end of the station, but one thing I do not remember from when it did exist was seeing anyone use it.

I would love it if Motorail still existed. I loathe driving long distances on motorways and avoid it wherever possible; motorway driving combines intense and prolonged boredom with the requirement to maintain very high levels of concentration tracking multiple targets both ahead and behind for long periods, which makes it extremely tiring (anyone thinking "huh?" or "no it doesn't" is part of the reason why it does). But particularly for north/south journeys it is difficult to avoid it. It would be wonderful to be able to put my car onto a train and take it off again at Oxenholme or Carlisle and not have to bother with the M6.

BUT

with long distance rail fares for just a person are in the region where it can be cheaper to buy a banger, insure it, drive it to your destination and then scrap it, instead of taking the train, I can't see any revived Motorail service not being so expensive that one Motorail trip a year would cost more than all the rest of your year's driving put together.

ALSO

I would not be happy with the original Motorail vehicles. I would want a covered van but with decent windows (and cleaned, too) so I could sit in my car for the journey, in much greater comfort than any carriage, and still see out.

Maybe we should just fit all cars with ro-rail conversions and drawbars so they can actually be the train themselves

 

[edwin_m]

I would love it if Motorail still existed. I loathe driving long distances on motorways and avoid it wherever possible; motorway driving combines intense and prolonged boredom with the requirement to maintain very high levels of concentration tracking multiple targets both ahead and behind for long periods, which makes it extremely tiring (anyone thinking "huh?" or "no it doesn't" is part of the reason why it does). But particularly for north/south journeys it is difficult to avoid it. It would be wonderful to be able to put my car onto a train and take it off again at Oxenholme or Carlisle and not have to bother with the M6.

Most people who share your view of long-distance driving would be content to make their journey on a normal train, and hire a car at the other end if they need one. This is likely to be far cheaper than any conceivable Motorail option, unless the stay at the other end is really long. Even a longish taxi ride to a final destination not on the rail network would be cheaper.

Another problem with Motorail is the difficulty of loading and unloading at intermediate stations. Unless it's possible to drive onto the platform and the wagons allow side loading (as with the FGW ones) it is necessary to have an end-loading bay and shunt some wagons into it. Either way the intermediate stop is prohibitively long especially if part of the train has to sit on the main line. Hence Motorail is essentially an end-to-end service and instead of unloading at Oxenholme or Carlisle you'd probably have to go all the way to Glasgow and drive back again.

 

[po8crg]

Motorail is basically a service for people who really like their own car but don't much like driving.



Others will hire a car or drive.



The only group I can really think of benefitting greatly are disabled people with adapted vehicles. And there aren't enough of them to make the service profitable.

 

[me123]

Motorail is basically a service for people who really like their own car but don't much like driving.

It could potentially be useful for people who want to take their car on a long journey to their destination, but don't want to drive the long route. It works best for a long overnight journey, when you can continue to make progress whilst getting a good nights rest. This is the case with Amtrak's AutoTrain, where people can take their car to Florida (where they want their own car to travel around the state), but don't have to drive all the way down. It's great for families (who do regularly make this journey), because being on a train with children is better than being stuck in a car with them. (Of course, if you're not traveling with children, being on a train with other people's children is potentially hell on earth).

Sadly, about the only example in the UK where I think it would work is the XC market to the South West, which would be very seasonal. I've already said that I think a Motorail service from the North East to Cornwall has some potential, but the costs would far outweigh that because it would have to be a unique service.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Cars are now so much more comfortable and spacious - think driving a Ford Anglia from say South Wales to London via the A40 pre Seven Bridge and M4 (we did it with 5 people several times and it was no fun) - with rising affluence and so on -compared to even my brand new eco friendly Sierra.

What might have been a niche market in the far off days of BR Motorail - stands no chance in a privatised railway era , with all the costs and "benefits" that the 1994 Act gave us.

 

[markindurham]

I heard something that trucks which travel through Switzerland but do not deliver to the country (e.g. Italy to Germany), must put their trailers on the train. Is this true?

Not if what I saw during 2 trips through the Gotthard Pass when driving to/from Italy last month is to go by. Plenty of lorries going both ways, and plenty of rail traffic too.

 

[Iskra]

Italy has a successful sleeper motorail service from Milan to Lamezia (Southern Italy) which cuts out a hell of a long drive.

I think a service running from Dover (Channel Ferry Connections) to Inverness via Folkestone for HS1, somewhere half way up England, Edinburgh or Glasgow and Inverness would be financially viable during the summer months. It could potentially operate as a sleeper service, but wouldn't need to.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Italy has a successful sleeper motorail service from Milan to Lamezia (Southern Italy) which cuts out a hell of a long drive.

I think a service running from Dover (Channel Ferry Connections) to Inverness via Folkestone for HS1, somewhere half way up England, Edinburgh or Glasgow and Inverness would be financially viable during the summer months. It could potentially operate as a sleeper service, but wouldn't need to.

As opposed to tourists flying from mainland Europe to Scotland and then hiring a car, or driving to Calais and then driving up through the UK. Both options would no doubt be much cheaper and in the latter case gives tourists the option of visiting other places as they head North.

 

[Greenback]

As opposed to tourists flying from mainland Europe to Scotland and then hiring a car, or driving to Calais and then driving up through the UK. Both options would no doubt be much cheaper and in the latter case gives tourists the option of visiting other places as they head North.

Agreed. There would be such a tiny market of those who would put their car on the train that it would never be remotely feasible, financially speaking even in the summer.

Flying has the advantage of speed and cost, plus hiring a car at the other end that is actually right hand drive and more suitable for driving on UK roads.

Driving all the way has the advantage of taking a tour and stopping off in places like Bath, Chester, York and the Lake District along the way.

I can't really see that sticking your car on to a train at Dover, even if it were possible, has much going for it at all.

 

[30907]

Italy has a successful sleeper motorail service from Milan to Lamezia (Southern Italy) which cuts out a hell of a long drive.

I think a service running from Dover (Channel Ferry Connections) to Inverness via Folkestone for HS1, somewhere half way up England, Edinburgh or Glasgow and Inverness would be financially viable during the summer months. It could potentially operate as a sleeper service, but wouldn't need to.

Unless an Internet search and the European Rail Timetable hAve both misled me, Italian motorail has finished too.

Dover/Brockenhurst to Stirling was one of the last non London routes 30+ years ago, but I think a modern version would be even less likely than a London based one.

 

[47271]

I agree it isn't coming back any time soon but re my last post 42 in this thread I used Edinburgh-Bristol, not 30+ years ago, but as recently as 1991.

 

[Iskra]

Unless an Internet search and the European Rail Timetable hAve both misled me, Italian motorail has finished too.

Dover/Brockenhurst to Stirling was one of the last non London routes 30+ years ago, but I think a modern version would be even less likely than a London based one.

It showed as an option on an Italian train station computerised ticket vending machine this summer, so I presumed it was still going. However, on checking it appears it no longer exists. Apologies.

 

[physics34]

it would have to be run at a loss like it was under BR. Only a company who would be prepared to operate it like that would it work in this privatised rail system.