Class 458/5

[RobShipway]

I thought all the former Gatex Class 460's had been refurbished already?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought all the former Gatex Class 460's had been refurbished already?

They have. However there are a number of coaches left over ready to put in 458/0s and there will be some baggage cars which will have been stripped of their useful parts. I suspect that this was what the poster saw.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I thought all the former Gatex Class 460's had been refurbished already?

They have...It's just all the spare coaches for the SWT units from the 8 car gatex..

 

[Smod]

This is now a long-running saga and a huge thread. The delays and problems have clearly had a big impact, not just in delivering additional capacity, but also on other routes where short formations occur as a result.

I'm not a railway expert - but I'd like to hear from those who are:
- What are the main problems now arising - from what I have read I'm assuming issues about door controls and coupling? Or is there more to it?
- Are SWT now getting to grips with the problems on the earlier conversions?
- On current conversions are the ex 458/0 arriving back in a more manageable state than the ex 460s, or do the same problems recur each time a unit gets back from Doncaster?

One other point regarding the ex 460 carriages at Doncaster - several look in a pretty scruffy state (from a distance) - and I'm not talking about the baggage cars. Given the corrosion issues and all that, it would not surprise me if the worst cars are being left until last - and refurbishing ex 460 seems to have been taking longer than ex 458/0. What's the betting that the refurbishment of the last few ex 460 cars ends up taking "longer than expected" and Doncaster fills up with ex 458/0 units awaiting their 5th cars?

 

[RobShipway]

This is now a long-running saga and a huge thread. The delays and problems have clearly had a big impact, not just in delivering additional capacity, but also on other routes where short formations occur as a result.

I'm not a railway expert - but I'd like to hear from those who are:
- What are the main problems now arising - from what I have read I'm assuming issues about door controls and coupling? Or is there more to it?
- Are SWT now getting to grips with the problems on the earlier conversions?
- On current conversions are the ex 458/0 arriving back in a more manageable state than the ex 460s, or do the same problems recur each time a unit gets back from Doncaster?

One other point regarding the ex 460 carriages at Doncaster - several look in a pretty scruffy state (from a distance) - and I'm not talking about the baggage cars. Given the corrosion issues and all that, it would not surprise me if the worst cars are being left until last - and refurbishing ex 460 seems to have been taking longer than ex 458/0. What's the betting that the refurbishment of the last few ex 460 cars ends up taking "longer than expected" and Doncaster fills up with ex 458/0 units awaiting their 5th cars?

I am not in a position to answer your earlier three questions as I am not someone that works for SWT or any railway company.

However, if you read the earlier parts of this thread and also from details I have read in railway magazines the class 460s because of the problems found have quite literally had to be rebuilt from scratch almost back from the frame that they sit on.

Hence, why the rebuilt is taking so long as it is a harder job than anyone realised.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They have. However there are a number of coaches left over ready to put in 458/0s and there will be some baggage cars which will have been stripped of their useful parts. I suspect that this was what the poster saw.

Sorry...looks like I missed your post. 12 hour turnarounds over the weekend aren't helping.

 

[Aictos]

Saw 8536 at Clapham Yard on Saturday, first time ever seeing one though - looks rather let's say different....

 

[Juniper Driver]

Saw 8536 today and I must see it every day flying around...504 is confined to clapped out yard 503 visits occasionally..

 

[Bigfoot]

Hearing rumors they another 4585 conversion has caught fire though no evidence that I can find. Anyone shed any light on this?

 

[fadster]

Is it possible for some one to update me on the status of 458013 and 458015 please? Are they active or stored somewhere?

 

[user15681]

458505 returning South right now.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Is it possible for some one to update me on the status of 458013 and 458015 please? Are they active or stored somewhere?

Will look out for them...on 458/0's tommorow...unless it's a 455 or 450 I guess.
Oh I have seen 458015 as it's one of three? which have a tash.

Hearing rumors they another 4585 conversion has caught fire though no evidence that I can find. Anyone shed any light on this?

Will see if I can find anything out over the next two days...

 

[SansPareil]

458520 and 456015 are currently sat on the access road at wimbledon depot, looks most odd, almost as if they were about to couple them up!

 

[WWTownEnth]

458501 Out of service - fire damaged
458502 In service
458503 Crew Training Clapham Yard
458504 Crew Training Clapham Yard
458505 Wimbledon testing
458510 Doncaster
458511 Doncaster
458020 In service
458024 Doncaster
458025 Doncaster
458530 Wimbledon testing
458531 In service
458532 In service
458533 In service
458534 In service
458535 In service
458536 In service

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought all the former Gatex Class 460's had been refurbished already?

To try and clarify, the former GatEx 460s consisted of 8 x 8 car trains, 64 vehicles of which the total broke down into 30 to form 6 x 5 car units of 'pure ex 460', then 30 vehicles to add one each to the 30 original 458s, and 4 spares (door donors).

So what you should have said was that the 6 units (458531-6) formed entirely from ex 460 vehicles had been 'refurbished already' - but that's less than half of the total 460 vehicle fleet.

It is then the remaining 30 vehicles that are being progressively added to 458s, and about a third of them are either delivered, or are in progress at Doncaster.

That might suggest up to 20 ex 460 vehicles are still in some sort of transitional state. I expect we won't ever know if there's a large pool of single vehicles siting in a shed, already fettled and waiting for 458s to be made available, or alternatively there are delays and 458s are not being sent up to Doncaster until there is definitely going to be an additional car ready to be fitted when due.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Is it possible for some one to update me on the status of 458013 and 458015 please? Are they active or stored somewhere?

458015 is still definitely out and about still with tash,saw it today....outside Waterloo..Think it was about 2pm+...Saw 536 as usual..Also saw I guess it was 505 with barrier wagons still fitted just before 8am this morning at Wimbledon.

 

[Domh245]

I saw a 458/5 in the yard nearest the district line, and it looked like it was being coupled up to the 47 and barriers that had been in there for a week or so. I am guessing that it is 501 returning for repair to it's fire damage, but can anyone confirm this?

 

[Juniper Driver]

I saw a 458/5 in the yard nearest the district line, and it looked like it was being coupled up to the 47 and barriers that had been in there for a week or so. I am guessing that it is 501 returning for repair to it's fire damage, but can anyone confirm this?

Oh perhaps im wrong then...couldn't get the number..Also I have a funny feeling that perhaps a tashed unit will be used for the railtour.

 

[Domh245]

I passed it this morning and wasn't really paying attention to it, it caught me by suprise and didn't catch the number, at that point it was parked adjacent to the 47+barrier+barrier formation. When i then passed it again this evening, it was dark so I couldn't really see, but it looked like the /5 was coupled to one of the barrier wagons at the buffer end, and parked adjacent to the 47 and the other barrier. If anything, I'm probably wrong, but I am guessing that 501 will return to doncaster on the assumption that wimbledon have got their hands full getting the rest of the fleet online and can't rebuild one (although maybe it'll help them understand what they are fixing!)

 

[Driver@swt]

Hearing rumors they another 4585 conversion has caught fire though no evidence that I can find. Anyone shed any light on this?

Dragging brake, isolated and all ok...no fire as far as I am aware.

 

[swt_passenger]

The RAIB are investigating the Windsor 458/5 fire:

RAIB’s preliminary examination found that the fire had originated in severe arcing in a junction box fixed under the carriage floor, where power cables from the collector shoes on either side on the train are connected to the main power cable (‘bus line’) which runs along the train. The arcing had burnt through the floor of the carriage, and had also destroyed parts of the structural members of the carriage body.

RAIB’s investigation will focus on the cable joint in this junction box, and how this joint was designed and assembled. It will also examine how the train’s structure and equipment, and the people in it, might have been protected from the consequences of a failure of this nature.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/150130_windsor.cfm

Photo of damage at link. You'd expect they've checked all the other similar junction boxes since, a blown joint on the incoming DC supply always seemed a likely reason, as was posted at the time. Might be nothing to do with the conversion though, would there be any reason to go in there?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I would have thought so if you're being paid handsomely for a refurbishment. You check the whole thing over including the HT electrics.

 

[Wolfie]

I would have thought so if you're being paid handsomely for a refurbishment. You check the whole thing over including the HT electrics.

Rather depends on what is in the specification of works surely. Disturb something you aren't contracted to work on and that could cause all end of problems...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The arcing had burnt through the floor of the carriage, and had also destroyed parts of the structural members of the carriage body.

Will that coach have to be scrapped?

 

[MCR247]

Rather depends on what is in the specification of works surely. Disturb something you aren't contracted to work on and that could cause all end of problems...

As Wolverton found out with SWTs 456s

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Will that coach have to be scrapped?

Depends on the condition, but I imagine the damage would have to be pretty extensive for the coach to be written off. For example the centre car of 144023 was repaired following a fire, and the unit could have stayed in traffic without it- unlike the damaged 458 car.

 

[Wolfie]

Depends on the condition, but I imagine the damage would have to be pretty extensive for the coach to be written off. For example the centre car of 144023 was repaired following a fire, and the unit could have stayed in traffic without it- unlike the damaged 458 car.

Of course there are potentially structural spares available on the partially stripped 460 luggage cars remnants. Whether these can be safely grafted onto a monocoque structure I am unsure.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Is it possible for some one to update me on the status of 458013 and 458015 please? Are they active or stored somewhere?

Saw 458013 at Winnersh Triangle today on it's way to Reading,saw 458015 @ Reading and also @ Waterloo.

What's the number of the burnt out coach then?

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course there are potentially structural spares available on the partially stripped 460 luggage cars remnants. Whether these can be safely grafted onto a monocoque structure I am unsure.

If complete door openings can be transferred from car to car, I doubt there's much of a problem with a couple of square feet of floor.

I really do think the damage (as far as it can be seen in the RAIB report photo) and the possible effect on the structure, is being somewhat exaggerated. The two seats immediately above the damaged area don't actually show any signs of smoke or heat damage.

Do people honestly think a carriage would be scrapped after this? There have been units with major diesel engine fires that have looked far worse and still been repaired.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Does anyone know if these units are in service yet? If not, why? They can't still be busy on staff training!