Class 456's on the move?

[Chris125]

So I assume the process was just paused, rather than restarted? Most ITTs issued in 2009 would have had the units delivered by now...

If I remember the Modern Railways article correctly the original tender had to be re-issued due to the timing of the election which presumably hampered gaining the approval of the DfT, who I think then continued to prevaricate over the idea until the eleventh hour.

Chris

 

[fgwrich]

Would 450s be suitable for all the routes currently using 455s? If they are then the 455s could have potentially have been eliminated as well.

Not seen any pics yet showing the whole of a 456 in the metro livery, my gut feeling is that they don't look very nice in the metro livery

There was a twin picture going around recently, but I've lost it. But here is a small front end picture.

 

[samuelmorris]

If I remember the Modern Railways article correctly the original tender had to be re-issued due to the timing of the election which presumably hampered gaining the approval of the DfT, who I think then continued to prevaricate over the idea until the eleventh hour.

Chris

Fair enough, unfortunate then - as several stock orders placed long after then have already been and gone...

 

[physics34]

Would 450s be suitable for all the routes currently using 455s? If they are then the 455s could have potentially have been eliminated as well.

Not seen any pics yet showing the whole of a 456 in the metro livery, my gut feeling is that they don't look very nice in the metro livery

dont think anything would look nice in that horrible livery!

 

[swt_passenger]

Would 450s be suitable for all the routes currently using 455s? If they are then the 455s could have potentially have been eliminated as well...

The point is that whatever the new stock was going to be it had to be able to operate in 10 car formations. Existing 450s cannot do that - but 455s and 456s in multiple can. They have also done a trial of reforming 455s into 3 car sets a few years ago, no idea if that was to prove it possible - or impossible, they never publicly said...

 

[455driver]

They have also done a trial of reforming 455s into 3 car sets a few years ago, no idea if that was to prove it possible - or impossible, they never publicly said...

It was a success with 3 motor coaches but it meant that it took 3x4 coach trains to make each 10 coach train with 2 trailer coaches unusable.

One of the 3 coach trains did manage to go into service on the following Monday coupled to a 4 coach 455 (I saw it at Wimbledon station) which did confuse the traincrew (especially the guard) a bit, especially when the 3 coach set was leading because the 'middle' cabs were no longer in the middle being 20 metres closer to the front!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 3 car 455s were down to a stock shortage rather than a trial weren't they? I recall 455 800 on what is now the Southern plus a 455/9 on what is now SWT running around for a while without their trailers. There was also, at around the same time, 455 856 running around with a 455/7 driving trailer.

A number of the Selhurst units experienced reformations at this time which left some vehicles in units other than those they were built with - one example is 455 801 which has a driving trailer that was originally in 455 825 and vice-versa. 455 808 has one of 455 830's original driving tailers, which has one of 455 824's; that in turn has the one originally in 455 808... There's a few others as well...

 

[swt_passenger]

The 3 car 455s were down to a stock shortage rather than a trial weren't they?

No, back in 2009 there were definitely trials done (out of passenger service) of the option to run 3+4+3 as a ten car train, someone even put up a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-SZ3z48CY

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Oh yes - I'd completely forgotten about that ( yet I could recall the 3 cars from 20 years earlier... )!

 

[Olaf]

No, back in 2009 there were definitely trials done (out of passenger service) of the option to run 3+4+3 as a ten car train, someone even put up a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-SZ3z48CY

What was the purpose of the running trials? i.e. were there specific technical aspects of the formation that the trials were designed to evaluate?

 

[causton]

If I may ask what is probably a stupid question, but I've gone through the last 6 pages of this thread without a definitive answer:

If I wanted to see the 456s, apart from the service from Clapham Junction, what journeys can I see them on from Ascot? Are they running all the services or just some? Or does it change day to day?

 

[TEW]

All Guildford-Ascot services are 456s now apart from the peak through services from Waterloo, and a diagram in the evening which is worked by a 450 which works in from Waterloo first. There was a 450 out last Saturday on one diagram, but I don't know if that was booked or not. Both diagrams on Sundays are 456s.

 

[causton]

Thanks Might do a Thames Branches Day Rover and then head on the SWT line from Reading to see if I can pick them up on Friday!

 

[TEW]

If you're there during the daytime on Friday they should all be 456s. It's only in the evening that you might get 450s/458s.

 

[Muzer]

OK. I normally like the SWT liveries, but it looks fugly on a 456

 

[Kite159]

I might have to do another Saturday trip to Alton via Reading to try and get a 456.

 

[user15681]

Reports elsewhere that 456003 will be returning by the end of the month (first refurbed unit?) and then 456014.

 

[59CosG95]

Reports elsewhere that 456003 will be returning by the end of the month (first refurbed unit?) and then 456014.

Presumably then it'll take over the Ascot-Guildford workings, allowinf one of the other 456s to get refurbed?

 

[WarrenTManager]

No good on its own. Red can't work with green. Need two units back

 

[DJL]

No good on its own. Red can't work with green. Need two units back

Why ever not?

FCC do it all the time...

 

[Bigfoot]

Why ever not?

FCC do it all the time...

With 456's? Not all rolling stock is the same my dear...

From my understanding no more stock will go north to replace the refurbishment stock until a significant number of the refers are returned. SWT had to bring stock waiting for refurb back south to maintain a normal level of service. So short in fact, that the crew training has been postponed again as there are not enough spare units for that.

 

[455driver]

No good on its own. Red can't work with green. Need two units back

So an internal refresh and a lick of paint means the couplers are no longer compatible!
Yeah okay.
You got a link to this info because I haven't heard anything about it.

 

[DJL]

With 456's? Not all rolling stock is the same my dear...

From my understanding no more stock will go north to replace the refurbishment stock until a significant number of the refers are returned. SWT had to bring stock waiting for refurb back south to maintain a normal level of service. So short in fact, that the crew training has been postponed again as there are not enough spare units for that.

No, not with 456s.
I apologise, I thought the refurb was a purely cosmetic thing. Certainly changing the colour of the paint should not result in units being incompatible.

If there are some non-cosmetic changes then I can see how this might cause interoperability problems.

oops, 455 beat me to it!

 

[Bigfoot]

So an internal refresh and a lick of paint means the couplers are no longer compatible!
Yeah okay.
You got a link to this info because I haven't heard anything about it.

There are electrical differences plus cab desk changes being made before return. Currently a southern 456 cant multiple correctly with all swt 455s (basically emergency only). Mainly as swt have 7s 8s and 9s where as southern only have 8s. Southern seem to have modified them and they really don't like swt 455s...

 

[Monty]

Bigfoot is correct, the park have already tried to couple the 456s to our 455s and they didn't like it one bit. It looks like Southern had modified the units to make them compatible with their 455s. One could argue that Southern's 455/8s are significantly different from SWT's units that they should be in their own separate sub class.

 

[Lockwood]

So we'll not be seeing any SWT/Southern 455s working together (for whatever reason that would occur)?

 

[physics34]

Bigfoot is correct, the park have already tried to couple the 456s to our 455s and they didn't like it one bit. It looks like Southern had modified the units to make them compatible with their 455s. One could argue that Southern's 455/8s are significantly different from SWT's units that they should be in their own separate sub class.

Southern 455/8 have some different coupling equipment compared to SWTs 455s. I presume the 456s were modified by southern in some way.

 

[Manchester77]

So we'll not be seeing any SWT/Southern 455s working together (for whatever reason that would occur)?

Until we get enough refurbished 456s

 

[87101]

Does anyone know which 456's are working at the moment looking for 456011 is this working Ascot - Guildford services or in for refurb. Thanks

 

[Bigfoot]

Ten car non pax test run should happen tomorrow... Obviously likes at least one 455 then!