Class 456's on the move?

[4-COR 3142]

Was stuck at Hayward's Heath this morning by a failiure on a combined Coastway West/ Ore service, whic turned out to be intersting because there were four class 456's in the siding on the North West end of the station.

The units were: 456 011, 004, 010 & 019.

Is this a stop off point for their movements to - I believe - Wolverton?

 

[455driver]

No its a place to stick them (oops I mean stable them, silly me :roll out the way because there isnt any room at Selhurst.

 

[westcoaster]

Was stuck at Hayward's Heath this morning by a failiure on a combined Coastway West/ Ore service, whic turned out to be intersting because there were four class 456's in the siding on the North West end of the station.

The units were: 456 011, 004, 010 & 019.

Is this a stop off point for their movements to - I believe - Wolverton?

they have been there for about 3 weeks now.

 

[Fincra5]

Secure storage

 

[TEW]

They did get a bit of an outing to Preston Park last week.

 

[JB25]

As said they are being stored. There's about 6 or more at Stewart's Lane, a few being occasionally used (001 & 015 seem to have been stuck together for a while) to form 8 car sets. Not a clue when they are all going for good though.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Not a clue when they are all going for good though.

They are all off lease from 'December 2013', as per note 5 under the Southern 'current stock' list in the DfT's TSGN ITT. (Table 5.4.3B page 86)

When in December I don't know, but the timetable change on Dec 8th might be a reasonable target?

The only reason I can see for them to get used at all after that is if there aren't enough of their replacements (377/6) up and running by then...

 

[JB25]

Southern have already started to replace them. Seen 6 car 377s instead of 455+456 combos and seen a few 3 car 377s going to Sutton too.

They are nice units to drive. Really should have been made 4 cars in reality. And they are really dingy in the passenger compartment. I can't wait to see what they will look like done up by SWTs though.

Again heard another rumour that the 456s will be stuck between two 455s (455-456-455) in formation, I don't know how true that is though. Do SWTs have SDO on their 455 stock?

 

[TEW]

They will run a handful of 455+455+456 formations, but because of the length of the Suburban platforms at Waterloo they can't run many 10-carriage trains yet. It's limited to the handful of peak Suburban services which use the Mainline platforms at Waterloo. SWT don't have SDO on the 455s but there is a 10-car platform extension project. The platforms have been extended Guildford-Effingham Junction recently, and I presume onwards via Cobham as this one of the routes which will see some 10-carriage trains as there are some peak trains which run on the fast lines after Surbiton and use the longer platforms at Waterloo.

 

[JB25]

They will run a handful of 455+455+456 formations, but because of the length of the Suburban platforms at Waterloo they can't run many 10-carriage trains yet. It's limited to the handful of peak Suburban services which use the Mainline platforms at Waterloo. SWT don't have SDO on the 455s but there is a 10-car platform extension project. The platforms have been extended Guildford-Effingham Junction recently, and I presume onwards via Cobham as this one of the routes which will see some 10-carriage trains as there are some peak trains which run on the fast lines after Surbiton and use the longer platforms at Waterloo.

I asked about SDO as I wondered if it might be a reason why the 456s are stuck in the middle obviously if you stopped at an 8 car platform no one could get out if the 456 is at the end, but with a 455 at the end they can walk through.

Maybe they are sticking them in the middle so they don't have to train drivers how to drive them?!

 

[455driver]

The 456s wont be in the middle!

 

[Monty]

As 455driver said its doubtful the 456s will be marshalled between 455s, there is still a debate where the guard will work the train from on a 455+456 combo due to the latter units lack of gangways.

And no, SWT's 455s have no SDO capability at all.

 

[JB25]

The 456s wont be in the middle!

Then why do I keep hearing it?

If I ever see one like it I will be taking a picture and posting it on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As 455driver said its doubtful the 456s will be marshalled between 455s, there is still a debate where the guard will work the train from on a 455+456 combo due to the latter units lack of gangways.

And no, SWT's 455s have no SDO capability at all.

No Gangways but a cab with Station duty equipment (Door Release, Close buttons and Signal bell etc.

 

[87015]

Murmurs of at least 4x456 diagrams on Southern after the timetable change, purely as SWT don't want the lot and they are cheaper for SN than increased 377 mileage. Murmurs maybe, but truth often follows...

 

[ainsworth74]

As 455driver said its doubtful the 456s will be marshalled between 455s, there is still a debate where the guard will work the train from on a 455+456 combo due to the latter units lack of gangways.

How difficult (or should that read expensive?) would it be to put gangways on the 456s?

 

[Monty]

No Gangways but a cab with Station duty equipment (Door Release, Close buttons and Signal bell etc.

That's not the issue though, it's the fact you can't go from one unit to another while the train is moving. You may well find the instructions for guards are for them to work from the cab of a 456 when the train is running as a mixed formation.

 

[JB25]

That's not the issue though, it's the fact you can't go from one unit to another while the train is moving. You may well find the instructions for guards are for them to work from the cab of a 456 when the train is running as a mixed formation.

Can you on your 455s then?

 

[Domh245]

How difficult (or should that read expensive?) would it be to put gangways on the 456s?

If the 458/5 project is anything to go by, changing stock from Southern to SWT and adding a corridor connection (yes there are other bits being done - but that is the bulk of it) starts off and then rapidly falls behind schedule. I'm guessing it would fall behind because of corrosion. I guess the air around Croydon is highly corrosive...

 

[JB25]

Unlike the 455s there would be a hell of a lot to move on a 456 to add a gangway. I can't see it ever happening to be honest.

 

[Monty]

Can you on your 455s then?

Yup, SWT 455's have retained their gangways.

As for fitting gangways to 456s, virtually I possible as far as I understand it. You would have to cut the entire cab off the front and somehow graft on a new one that was compatible with the existing 455s.

 

[JB25]

Yup, SWT 455's have retained their gangways.

As for fitting gangways to 456s, virtually I possible as far as I understand it. You would have to cut the entire cab off the front and somehow graft on a new one that was compatible with the existing 455s.

I have never seen one to be honest.

 

[Y186520]

Was advised that certain Swt staff were looking for a 2 x 456 move to Wimbledon on Wednesday just gone. The person who passed this info said it didn't run due to a paperwork issue.

Has anyone else info regarding a move ?

Other than that basic info, and that nothing had moved yet, they didn't say
anymore on that subject.

 

[ainsworth74]

As for fitting gangways to 456s, virtually I possible as far as I understand it. You would have to cut the entire cab off the front and somehow graft on a new one that was compatible with the existing 455s.

Ah well it was a nice thought

 

[Juniper Driver]

Yup, SWT 455's have retained their gangways.

As for fitting gangways to 456s, virtually I possible as far as I understand it. You would have to cut the entire cab off the front and somehow graft on a new one that was compatible with the existing 455s.

Basically though isn't that what they did with the 460s to 458/5? Plus a new coupling compatible with desiro's.

So it must be possible.

 

[455driver]

Then why do I keep hearing it?

Because you listen to idiots!

If I ever see one like it I will be taking a picture and posting it on here.

We are not saying they wont operate like that, just that they wont be booked to work like that.

Example-
You (as in the driver) are prepping a 455,455,456 combination and the leading cab of the 455 has a fault so you would run the 455 around and couple it to the 456 to bury the cab with the fault, the result is a 455,456,455 combination!
Or would you rather all the services that unit was booked to work that day were cancelled rather than do the sensible thing!

Why does everything have to be black and white without any grey areas, and doesnt anyone have any common sense these days?

Actually dont bother answering I know the answers to both questions! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re fitting gangways to 456s-

Basically though isn't that what they did with the 460s to 458/5? Plus a new coupling compatible with desiro's.

So it must be possible.

It is possible but is it cost effective?

Not in a million years!

 

[Y186520]

Control special Selhurst Wimbledon eta 1543 has been whispered.

If the 456's start to arrive now will they be in service before the 458/5 ?

 

[samuelmorris]

It is possible but is it cost effective?

Not in a million years!

Agreed, especially when we're dealing with old BR units, and ones that have a cab end in every carriage!

 

[JB25]

Because you listen to idiots!



We are not saying they wont operate like that, just that they wont be booked to work like that.

Example-
You (as in the driver) are prepping a 455,455,456 combination and the leading cab of the 455 has a fault so you would run the 455 around and couple it to the 456 to bury the cab with the fault, the result is a 455,456,455 combination!
Or would you rather all the services that unit was booked to work that day were cancelled rather than do the sensible thing!

Why does everything have to be black and white without any grey areas, and doesnt anyone have any common sense these days?

Actually dont bother answering I know the answers to both questions! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re fitting gangways to 456s-


It is possible but is it cost effective?

Not in a million years!

Everything is not in black and white. I just wonder why you are so adamant that it won't be in the middle. Of course in the scenario you mention it could of course happen but I have heard from a good 3 or 4 different people that the plan is to stick it in the middle and as such as it is not a one off then maybe it has some truth to it?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apart from anything else, until Waterloo is fettled in a few years 10 car services on the main suburban side will be very much in the minority. From what has been discussed previously you are more likely to see them running in other permutations that add up to eight, such as 455+456+456; or as mentioned in the other thread on their own or in pairs between Guildford and Ascot...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Control special Selhurst Wimbledon eta 1543 has been whispered.

It found its way onto RTT, and has presumably run:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O42392/2013/11/29/advanced

 

[D7666]

Quick and dirty 10car 455/456 with gangways within unit is split the 456 and put the 8car 455 between the two 456 cars, with only a relatively simple coupler mod to one car at each end (i.e. leave the 455 tightlock and replace the 456 bar, or do v.v.).

That is a simple way to get 10car trains of this stock running, but SWT don't need them that urgently.

However, I do recognise that gives a semi-permanent 10car train that can't be split in traffic for practical purposes - even between the two 455s. One 456 car is a motor and the other a trailer, and while each 5car bit would work, one is over powered the other under powered, and then there is the risk after detaching, running split, when they next go to attach you might get two under power units meeting. Or two over powered units meeting. Or two units meet 456 end to 456 end, etc, etc ,etc.

Before anyone takes the above too seriously, it is partly in jest, but partly to demonstrate you could run 10car trains of this stock and meet all the intra train gangway needs.

Further :

I can't see that converting a 456 cab end to a through gangway is that extensive, it is the same cab end structure as a 319, indeed 319 / 321 / 456 are all off the same production line. The structure does have enough space for a gangway ... I'm not saying the current 319 end layout is suitable for anything but emergency use while stationary, but none the less the aperture is already there, and thats the biggest thing to make. Cost effective ? Doubtful.

Second, I had never heard the 455/456/455 suggestion before this thread. Where did that come from ?

Now this is actually how I would do it ... form 6car 455s by putting a single 455 between the 456 cars, and run 4+6. This keep motor:trailer ratio balanced. It does mean you can't get through a 10car, but I can't see any real operational reason why that can't be done, and I don't count an RPI can't get through as operational. All they have to do is ensure detttach and atttach diagrams don't have two 6cars meeting.


--
Nick