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Class 456's on the move?

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Monty

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Basically though isn't that what they did with the 460s to 458/5? Plus a new coupling compatible with desiro's.

So it must be possible.

The difference is that the cabs on Juniper stock are modular and can be removed and replaced from the bodyshell with relative ease. On the 455s and 456s (455driver maybe able to confirm this) the cab is part of the bodyshell and thus it could be said more advanced 'surgery' is required to replace a cab from one of these units.
 
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455driver

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Quick and dirty 10car 455/456 with gangways within unit is split the 456 and put the 8car 455 between the two 456 cars, with only a relatively simple coupler mod to one car at each end (i.e. leave the 455 tightlock and replace the 456 bar, or do v.v.).

That is a simple way to get 10car trains of this stock running, but SWT don't need them that urgently.

However, I do recognise that gives a semi-permanent 10car train that can't be split in traffic for practical purposes - even between the two 455s. One 456 car is a motor and the other a trailer, and while each 5car bit would work, one is over powered the other under powered, and then there is the risk after detaching, running split, when they next go to attach you might get two under power units meeting. Or two over powered units meeting. Or two units meet 456 end to 456 end, etc, etc ,etc.

Before anyone takes the above too seriously, it is partly in jest, but partly to demonstrate you could run 10car trains of this stock and meet all the intra train gangway needs.

Further :

I can't see that converting a 456 cab end to a through gangway is that extensive, it is the same cab end structure as a 319, indeed 319 / 321 / 456 are all off the same production line. The structure does have enough space for a gangway ... I'm not saying the current 319 end layout is suitable for anything but emergency use while stationary, but none the less the aperture is already there, and thats the biggest thing to make. Cost effective ? Doubtful.

Second, I had never heard the 455/456/455 suggestion before this thread. Where did that come from ?

Now this is actually how I would do it ... form 6car 455s by putting a single 455 between the 456 cars, and run 4+6. This keep motor:trailer ratio balanced. It does mean you can't get through a 10car, but I can't see any real operational reason why that can't be done, and I don't count an RPI can't get through as operational. All they have to do is ensure detttach and atttach diagrams don't have two 6cars meeting.


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Nick
The internal anyways are not compatible with the outer gangways.

What coaches are you going to take out of the 455s to insert in the 456s?
All you are doing is complicating something which isn't a problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you a structural engineer?

So how do you know it isn't complicated, you can't just knock something up in your shed, there are rules which have to be followed and crash tests etc to pass.
 

D7666

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tsk tsk such an aggressive response to something you should not be taking as seriously.

But you should try reading posts a little more carefully since you have misread / misunderstood my words in at least three places hence posted garbage out of it

What coaches are you going to take out of the 455s to insert in the 456s?

None.

Try again. Read what I wrote.


Are you a structural engineer?

I am engineer.

As you sign yourself 455driver can I assume you are not an engineer of any type ?

So how do you know it isn't complicated

Again read what I wrote.

"I can't see ...." is what I wrote - which is nothing like "I know ...."

there are rules which have to be followed and crash tests etc to pass.[/

For the third time, read what I wrote.

456 cabs are the same as 319 and 321, they've already done the crash tests on them - 319s meet the Mk3 body bill WITH the (emergency) exit aperture in place. You don't need structural alterations that impact on crashworthiness, and its the aperture which is the most significant element.

Further, I said it wasn't cost effective anyway, from which you just might have worked out I was saying it wouldn't happen anyway.

Your garden shed comment is not worth a response .....................

--
Nick
 
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455driver

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Funny enough I am not an engineer! :roll:

So the basic cab structure on a 456 is the same as a 319 and 321 is it?
How many of them have a gangway fitted?
If they are going to change the cab structure to accept the mounting points they will have to be recertified, but as you are an engineer you will know that already wont you!

You didnt answer the bit about the different inner (456) gangway being completely different to the outer (455) gangway and how they are going to be coupled up on your magic train, obviously the question was too difficult? :lol:
 

samuelmorris

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I would have thought in today's health & safety culture performing that sort of modification to a 456 would require some new safety assessment. Not sure on the practical implications of doing that.
 

59CosG95

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I thought that they'd chop each 456 in half, fixing them on the ends of each 455 in a formation like this (where # means 455 coach and % means 456 coach):
[%####][####%], but that'd be too far fetched and expensive now.
 

jopsuk

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I thought that they'd chop each 456 in half, fixing them on the ends of each 455 in a formation like this (where # means 455 coach and % means 456 coach):
[%####][####%], but that'd be too far fetched and expensive now.

Only half the 456 coaches have motors- and then just one powered bogie. So half the units would have more power than the other half.

You'd also then end up with 10 car trains with both 456 cabs at the Waterloo end, both at the "country end" or both in the middle as well the ideal of at either end.

Further, there's only 24 456s. there's 91 455s at SWT.

It would help for SWT's ways of working if they had 455-style corridor cabs though.
 
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Domh245

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Unless you chose to go "desiro city" on them and permanently couple the whole 10 car rake together, but that has the problem of reducing flexibility - this 10 car set couldn't work a 10 car train the next day and then turn up and try to work a train that should be 8 cars long, unless you started to fit SDO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There were a couple (2 I think) 456s sat in Wimbledon Park Sidings this morning, still in southern livery. Took me by surprise as I went past on the District
 

Nicks

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Given SWT tendency to run short formations especially at weekends, I bet it won't be long before we see a single 2-car 456 on an evening weekday peak Suburban run from Waterloo!
 

jopsuk

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One of the ROSCO options for refurbished 319s includes a gangway option. I'd say that almost certainly means that doing the same to the 456s is structurally feasible

But that is likely to be expensive. So it comes down to how much SWT are willing to pay/the DfT are willing to be passed onto the next franchisee. There's been no indication that they're planning on doing such a thing. Rather it appears from anything put in the press so far that they're getting a relatively simple overhaul to give them the same interior as the SWT 455s and presumably a coat of red paint.
 
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Considering the state of the first two - 22 and 23, I think you'll be able to pull the cab off anyway!
 
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Peter Sarf

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My thoughts for strapping two 455s and a 456 together are as follows.

cab455+455+455+456cab.
cab455+455+455+455cab+cab455+456(motored)cab.

The result being the top 4-car unit has the same power as a normal 455 and the bottom 6-car unit has all the power of a 2-car 456 added to the normal 455. So all the same power to weight ratio.

Cheap job but then you could spend a bit of money replacing the redundant face-to-face cabs inside the 6-car unit.

In service they would work 10 car trains with the 456 cabs at the outer ends. But would work fine as separate 4-car or 6-car units. You only lose the inter unit connection if the 4-car or 6-car are the wrong way around. Southern have blanked off their inter unit connection of 455s so it is not that important ?.

The only flaw in my plan would be if both cab coaches of an original 455 are drivingMOTORS !. but I cannot remember if they are ?. I am also assuming that the controls for both 455s and 456s are identical or can talk to each other.

Been thinking of that for years so thanks for the thread :lol::idea:.
 

Peter Mugridge

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455s do not have any Driving Motors...

They have one motor vehicle per unit - one of the middle carriages.
 

Brian Aylott

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I don't think a C4 would help with the 'poor patch painting' or corrosion unless you're referring to bogie painting or bogie corrosion!
Brian
 

455driver

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There was me thinking C4 was a kind of plastic explosive.

It would certainly remove the corroded areas.

Plus, as long as it is strategically placed, it would help with fitting end gangways! ;)
 

Peter Sarf

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455s do not have any Driving Motors...

They have one motor vehicle per unit - one of the middle carriages.

Oh good my mad plan still works :).

It did occur to me that as a 456 has (had ?) a loo in one coach that it must be feasible to add a loo to a 455 coach. Could always black out the windows in the redundant drivers cabs and etc etc etc :lol:.
 

Y186520

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Allelys heavy haulage has posted a photo of a 456 vehicle at Wabtec.
No information as to why it is there, but may be for overhaul. Perhaps other
forum members will have this information.

Talk in low places has suggested the next move of 456 units from Southern
may involve 5 units moving either 24th or 27th December. Hopefully other
contributors will be able to confirm.

Allelys heavy haulage photo posted on facebook.
 

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swt_passenger

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Allelys heavy haulage has posted a photo of a 456 vehicle at Wabtec.
No information as to why it is there, but may be for overhaul. Perhaps other
forum members will have this information.

Talk in low places has suggested the next move of 456 units from Southern
may involve 5 units moving either 24th or 27th December. Hopefully other
contributors will be able to confirm.

Allelys heavy haulage photo posted on facebook.

Four units have been moved by road it seems, there were reports elsewhere of quite a number of individual carriages moving during the latter part of last week, all done overnight though. There are plans for another 8 units to move during next week, 4 cars per night Mon - Thur. So there'll be 12 units moved in total by next weekend.

It is definitely the commencement of the overhaul for SWT.
 

Y186520

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Thanks for info on that. SWT are a little secretive over these things. My
contacts dont like letting any information out.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks for info on that. SWT are a little secretive over these things. My
contacts dont like letting any information out.

Of course it may not be anything to do with SWT yet, if the ROSCO is moving them directly off lease from Stewarts Lane to the overhaul firm.
 

Domh245

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I'm assuming that the 2 units in Wimbledon Park sidings are for driver training. They seem to sporadically move up and down their road.
 

westcoaster

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Allelys heavy haulage has posted a photo of a 456 vehicle at Wabtec.
No information as to why it is there, but may be for overhaul. Perhaps other
forum members will have this information.

Talk in low places has suggested the next move of 456 units from Southern
may involve 5 units moving either 24th or 27th December. Hopefully other
contributors will be able to confirm.

Allelys heavy haulage photo posted on facebook.

That looks like wolverton not wabtec.
 

Y186520

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