Class 456's on the move?

[WarrenTManager]

Is there any chance of Saturdays via Epsom being made up from 4 to 8 cars? It's quite common to be standing room only from Epsom onwards and definitely by Stoneleigh. By the time the things are past Raynes Park it's like the rush hour.

Dorkings going to 8 car as are alternate Chessingtons....

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Dorkings going to 8 car as are alternate Chessingtons....

That's good; will the Guildfords double up as well or will those remain as 4 cars?

 

[Goldfish62]

The first train I ever drove on route learning coming back from Reading was a 2HAP.As far as I remember anyway.That was the only time I ever remember it happening.I do remember VEP+HAP+HAP so no doubt I drove them down there also.I remember I was doing a lot of Reading/Alton combos at the time.

I also remember an evening peak Reading via Hounslow service which was CIG+HAP+HAP, and just before withdrawal there was a HAP+HAP+HAP+HAP formation out one weekend on Readings.

 

[Feathers44]

Hampton Court services are planned to be formed of 6-carriages on Sundays from December, either 455+456 or 456+456+456.

OK, thanks. But that begs another question from me (as a clueless aerospace engineer).

From what little I know of diagramming, the trains don't simply run back and forth between HC and Waterloo so a 6-car HC service will mean that the 6-cars get sent round to the other suburban destinations too? I can't imagine that anyone's going to drop a 456 off at waterloo to be picked up by the next Hampton Court train (but I reserve the right to be completely wrong).

Edit: OK, having read another page that I'd missed I see it's even more complicated than that but the talk of serivices to *here* being 6 and *there* being 8 still makes me wonder how the diagrams work when trains don't simply shuttle forwards and backwards on the same route.

 

[TEW]

On Mondays-Saturdays the diagramming is a lot more complex, with most routes interworking with each other. On Sundays it is more simple and a lot of routes have captive units all day, including Hampton Court.

 

[Juniper Driver]

To do with turnaround times at Waterloo also.On the suburban side they don't want the trains waiting around too long.So they come in say from Dorking then next pop off to Guildford.Not back down to Dorking again as that train has already gone,previously.I hope this makes it as clear as mud.

 

[Feathers44]

To do with turnaround times at Waterloo also.On the suburban side they don't want the trains waiting around too long.So they come in say from Dorking then next pop off to Guildford.Not back down to Dorking again as that train has already gone,previously.I hope this makes it as clear as mud.

Absolutely Thanks.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'll try & do a cycle for 1 set (beit an 4 or 8 car) for you.

Guildford (C) - Waterloo
Waterloo - Chessington
Chessington - Waterloo
Waterloo - Dorking
Dorking - Waterloo
Waterloo - Hampton Ct
Hampton Ct - Waterloo
Waterloo - Guildford (EP)
Guildford (C) - Waterloo

Another would be:

Guildford (EP) - Waterloo
Waterloo - Woking Bay
Woking Bay - Waterloo
Waterloo - Guildford (C)
Guildford (EP) - Waterloo.

 

[infobleep]

To do with turnaround times at Waterloo also.On the suburban side they don't want the trains waiting around too long.So they come in say from Dorking then next pop off to Guildford.Not back down to Dorking again as that train has already gone,previously.I hope this makes it as clear as mud.

Could they do the same on Sundays or would potential for engineering work cause to many issues?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Could they do the same on Sundays or would potential for engineering work cause to many issues?

Could do but the service really isn't as intense as during the weekdays.

 

[Paul180]

I can't wait for them to be removed from the Guildford to Ascot route they seem to be causing nothing but trouble for all the outer services on that route.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Just imagine how I feel. I've had loads of issues with them traction & doors primarily, a couple of issues with brakes not releasing and one set of shoe gear go.

Last time it was no sand available, so that went "to the wall". If you get a good pair they're great, but there's more chance of coming up on the lottery than that unfortunately.

 

[notadriver]

Hey mate maybe you could answer this one for us. Is a 456 quicker off the mark than a 455?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

To me they seem broadly similar initially, but then when it gets to around about the 55-60 mark the 455 does seem to be considerably quicker.

I don't know if it is or not or whether it's all in the mind.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In their NSE and green days they did carry the nickname, though not widely used, of "snails" so the impression that they are, shall we say "less energetic", is obviously not a new thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could they do the same on Sundays or would potential for engineering work cause to many issues?

For how many Sundays of the year does the complete inner suburban timetable operate? It is much easier to just pull complete diagrams to a given destination in response to engineering work closures than to re-write all the inter-working for every different permutation.

 

[HeelBurton]

I'd agree with Harley Davidson about the 455's quicker than 456 remark. I remember training on the green ones and remember that between 25-30 mph they kind of lost acceleration for a few seconds then returned to normal. I do know though driving a 455/456 combo from the 456 end is a little slower than the 455 end, also if you take power too quick from the 456 from a stand, you are more likely to get an overload reset.
I seem to find also the brakes on a 456 seem to be better than 455's in the dry, but a slight bit of drizzle the 456 shucks sand down immediately and the needle goes berserk even though it seems absolutely fine. I had a unit which done this going into Clapham junction on the DMS in the dry in the middle of a midday August!
Not too sure if any other 455 and 456 drivers would agree with this but it appears all 456 braking characteristics are the same whereas with 455's it's "pot luck" with each unit.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

On Sunday's if the main is shut all our lot tend to get is:

Guildford - Surbiton - Hampton Court - Surbiton - Hampton Court -Surbiton - Guildford - Waterloo (Ep) - Guildford and repeat or variations on that or if we're really lucky a Woking thrown in for good measure!:roll:

 

[cactustwirly]

I remember training on the green ones and remember that between 25-30 mph they kind of lost acceleration for a few seconds then returned to normal.

This is caused by the motors changing from Series to Parallel.

 

[Goldfish62]

When the 456s were on Southern and Connex SC they seemed to have permanent wheel flats. Is that still the case?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Nope, they just seem to have dodecagonal wheels instead.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Are these units experiencing a few problems once again? The Surrey Heath service has seen a lot of cancellations today, and I did see a 450 out in the middle of the day a few days ago when they should all be 2x456. Today's problems seem not only to have affected the Guildford - Ascot trains but also the GWR North Downs service. Looks like 1053 Ascot - Guildford was at the heart of it though (all cancelled trains shown as due to brake problems).

One irony is that when the 1635 Waterloo - Reading blocked the line at Twickenham, the subsequent trains still ran to Reading when SWT would normally be aborting them at Wokingham and dumping its passengers on to GWR, but the following GWR trains are late and/or missing!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

2N23- Was indeed the culprit and the stock didn't get into Guildford until around about 1815.

They couldn't get the brakes off and even when they did it kept putting the brakes back on again. They really should keep these wretched units in depot until they're fixed properly, if it's not traction, it's the brakes, not either of them, then it's the doors or AWS/TPWS.

Best cure for them is an oxyacetalene torch.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

2N23- Was indeed the culprit and the stock didn't get into Guildford until around about 1815.

They couldn't get the brakes off and even when they did it kept putting the brakes back on again. They really should keep these wretched units in depot until they're fixed properly, if it's not traction, it's the brakes, not either of them, then it's the doors or AWS/TPWS.

Best cure for them is an oxyacetalene torch.

Do SWTs have the option for a follow on order of 707s?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I don't think so even then they'd be no good for certain routes due to their length and power requirements.

Certain routes only have 4 car platforms and very limited power supplies.

 

[Deepgreen]

Plus the luxury of working destination displays?

Edit - I happened to travel on a 456 in an 8 car formation yesterday from Epsom to Dorking. Dire stuff - cramped, poorly-finished decoration, the ridiculous retention of the small window where the toilet used to be and, of course, no working cab front destination displays (will these ever work and do SWT even care?!), plus the internal displays showing the time as 00:00 and stating that the next station would be Vauxhall throughout.

 

[Siemens Staines]

I assume it was due to 456s slipping to a stand (rather than 450s) that have caused the entire service between Aldershot and Ascot to be suspended this evening.

 

[TEW]

Correct, they were unable to make it up some of the banks.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do the 456s have any sort of wheel slip protection system installed?

 

[TEW]

Yes, but wheel slide prevention intervenes when the train experience wheel slide under braking. It can't do anything when a train is unable to gain sufficient grip to make it up a hill. 456s also have sanders fitted to help.