Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[GhostManDN91]

Hopefully they'll be used at Wigan on some services.

 

[3RDGEN]

It's roughly the same as the current 185 fleet that have no issues on that exact line

I was think more in 2034 when there should be four express and two semi fasts per hour Staylbridge - Leeds, at that point the stoppers need to be rapid on station stops and acceleration which the 350's may not achieve.

 

[Iskra]

I’m hoping that some may find their way on to the East side to be used on a Huddersfield-York service and possibly the Doncaster line to release 333’s to allow more 6-car 331 workings on ‘the Triangle.’ I might be being a little over-optimistic here however.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I’m hoping that some may find their way on to the East side to be used on a Huddersfield-York service and possibly the Doncaster line to release 333’s to allow more 6-car 331 workings on ‘the Triangle.’ I might be being a little over-optimistic here however.

I don't follow - how would that provide more 331s for the Triangle?

 

[Mamorin]

In the media release Northern says that the 350/2s will replace the 323s, so none of the 350/2s are going to the North East.

I don't even think there are enough 350/2s to replace the 323s and do what you are hoping for.

 

[amahy]

I’m hoping that some may find their way on to the East side to be used on a Huddersfield-York service and possibly the Doncaster line to release 333’s to allow more 6-car 331 workings on ‘the Triangle.’ I might be being a little over-optimistic here however.

Does “the triangle” really need more 6 car workings though?

 

[Iskra]

Does “the triangle” really need more 6 car workings though?

It needs the ones that are currently booked to be 6-car, to be 6-car as a starting point. The Doncaster Line could also benefit from 6-cars in the peaks to allow for future growth.

 

[Geeves]

I doubt that 350s will become 'common user' between east and west however I do think the east and west side 331s would have diagrams that start on the triangle and finish eventually in Manchester via the Huddersfield line for maintenance purposes. My thoughts are that the Manchester to Leeds stoppers initially at least will be 331s released by 350s on the west.

 

[xotGD]

It needs the ones that are currently booked to be 6-car, to be 6-car as a starting point. The Doncaster Line could also benefit from 6-cars in the peaks to allow for future growth.

Best achieved by sending us a few more 331s, if these can be released from the wet side of the Pennines when the 350s arrive.

(And it isn't a triangle. It has four points.)

 

[InkyScrolls]

Best achieved by sending us a few more 331s, if these can be released from the wet side of the Pennines when the 350s arrive.

(And it isn't a triangle. It has four points.)

Correct, but that collection of routes is known universally as The Triangle, including in official railway internal documentation, after the triangular junction at Shipley.

 

[em81]

Best achieved by sending us a few more 331s, if these can be released from the wet side of the Pennines when the 350s arrive.

(And it isn't a triangle. It has four points.)

I think it was decided a number of pages back that if every 323 is replaced by a 350/2 and they allow for the newly electrified lines, then the only spares will be the minimum number needed to allow for maintenance. So I don't imagine they'll be any internal cascades, unless it's on a swap basis.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I’m hoping that some may find their way on to the East side to be used on a Huddersfield-York service and possibly the Doncaster line to release 333’s to allow more 6-car 331 workings on ‘the Triangle.’ I might be being a little over-optimistic here however.

Best achieved by sending us a few more 331s, if these can be released from the wet side of the Pennines when the 350s arrive.

(And it isn't a triangle. It has four points.)

We've been over the "triangle" question a while back, and everyone knows which routes are being referred to when someone says "the triangle". There may be four "points", but there's no direct trains between two of them so it definitely isn't a "square".

Back on topic, what I've heard (by putting my ear to the ground, so to speak) is that the additional number of 350s compared to the number of 323s (plus the additional vehicles with them being 4-car) should free up additional 3-car 331s to come to Yorkshire. With three of those units provisionally earmarked for Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers. Exact service patterns (such as the possibility of running through to York) to be determined at a later date.

 

[Iskra]

We've been over the "triangle" question a while back, and everyone knows which routes are being referred to when someone says "the triangle". There may be four "points", but there's no direct trains between two of them so it definitely isn't a "square".

Back on topic, what I've heard (by putting my ear to the ground, so to speak) is that the additional number of 350s compared to the number of 323s (plus the additional vehicles with them being 4-car) should free up additional 3-car 331s to come to Yorkshire. With three of those units provisionally earmarked for Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers. Exact service patterns (such as the possibility of running through to York) to be determined at a later date.

Interesting.

I was thinking about the York service and the ideal option in my opinion would be for Northern to run a Huddersfield-York and a Bradford Forster Square-York service. With one calling at Church Fenton only and one stopper. Then you could terminate the current Blackpool North-York service at Leeds without an outcry from Bradford about losing a direct train to York. It would also end Northern diesels under the wires on that section, release DMU’s and possibly make the Blackpool North service more reliable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting.

I was thinking about the York service and the ideal option in my opinion would be for Northern to run a Huddersfield-York and a Bradford Forster Square-York service. With one calling at Church Fenton only and one stopper. Then you could terminate the current Blackpool North-York service at Leeds without an outcry from Bradford about losing a direct train to York. It would also end Northern diesels under the wires on that section, release DMU’s and possibly make the Blackpool North service more reliable.

Running anything off the "triangle" (sorry! ) through Leeds is probably not a great idea. The lines up towards Shipley and Harrogate should probably have services confined to the bays over on that side of the station (platforms 0-6) wherever possible, as this means they can be largely kept separate from services to and from other routes (LNER services notwithstanding). If we need to retain a Bradford to York link (and I would favour doing so) the current arrangement is a more sensible operation. When Northern's new bi-mode units eventually arrive, the service cancelled use those to take advantage of the wires up to York (possibly from BDI, if the plan to put wires up from Leeds is taken forward).

 

[biggerisbetter]

I think it was decided a number of pages back that if every 323 is replaced by a 350/2 and they allow for the newly electrified lines, then the only spares will be the minimum number needed to allow for maintenance. So I don't imagine they'll be any internal cascades, unless it's on a swap basis.

This would seem to add up as there are 37 x 81.4m trains replacing 34 x 70.2m trains. Whilst this is a useful overall increase in cumulative train length of around 21%, as additional units will be required for the potential Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria/Stalybridge via Westhoughton and Golborne services I don't see the ability for this change to free up any 331s for transfer to West Yorkshire unless any existing doubled up 6-car trains could be reduced to 4-car without overcrowding. Are there any diagrams in the north west (Chat Moss stoppers or Manchester Airport to Blackpool North) where this could be achieved without overcrowding issues?

 

[em81]

The pairs of 323s on the Blackpool services sometimes have quite a lot of spare seats, but that doesn't automatically mean the diagram can change to a single 350/2 without any issues. I once caught a short formed off peak Blackpool service from Piccadilly and you had to look hard to find the vacant seats. Most people boarding at Oxford Road and Deansgate had to stand.

 

[lowe1409]

The pairs of 323s on the Blackpool services sometimes have quite a lot of spare seats, but that doesn't automatically mean the diagram can change to a single 350/2 without any issues. I once caught a short formed off peak Blackpool service from Piccadilly and you had to look hard to find the vacant seats. Most people boarding at Oxford Road and Deansgate had to stand.

I feel the loadings on the blackpools are highly variable and just because they look quiet one day, doesn't mean they still will be the next. There's also a massive difference between front and rear sets as well. Hopefully having fully walkthrough trains will resolve that issue.

 

[em81]

I feel the loadings on the blackpools are highly variable and just because they look quiet one day, doesn't mean they still will be the next. There's also a massive difference between front and rear sets as well. Hopefully having fully walkthrough trains will resolve that issue.

Indeed. On northbound trains I've noticed due to platform layouts the rear set is busier on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly, but it's usually better to board it because most central Manchester passengers will board the front unit. While some of the passengers who boarded at the airport, but stay on after Manchester, will only be going to Salford or Bolton. Some of the Manchester passengers will stay on until Blackpool.

The weather makes loadings unpredictable for both Blackpool and Windermere trains. I guess for Southport too, but I don't use those very often.

 

[Liam L]

Yeah the blackpools from my run on a pair of 323s is, people will board the train from the back at Blackpool North meaning it's full but if you walk down to the very front (like i did), the carriage is empty. it was the same when we had the 323s here on the cross city, The rear trains heading south towards Bromsgrove/Redditch from new street was always often empty, Now the 730s are here (and display how full the carriages are), they are a lot more busier.