Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[Class 466]

Which is what is happening.

Not initially anyway, that and stoke services using the bay are reliant on infrastructure changes.

 

[Mamorin]

There was a reason why Soho ones were always better, one depot with one fleet which made everything easier.

The Northern 323s were as good as the West Mids sets when the Northern sets were maintained at Longsight, and Longsight also maintains the 390s.

I'm sure the staff at Allerton are doing the best they can, but as Soho and Longsight prove, the 323 fleet ether needs ether its own depot or a depot its share with only one other multiple unit type.

 

[Liam L]

The Northern 323s were as good as the West Mids sets when the Northern sets were maintained at Longsight, and Longsight also maintains the 390s.

I'm sure the staff at Allerton are doing the best they can, but as Soho and Longsight prove, the 323 fleet ether needs ether its own depot or a depot its share with only one other multiple unit type.

Yes, not a dig at Allerton staff at all in my pervious post. I'm sure it's a tough job keeping these (somewhat) obsolete trains in traffic.

 

[Snow1964]

Northern has issued media release, seems 350s won't be introduced until 2028

Refers to trains being overhauled at Northampton (presumably the Siemens depot)

Train operator Northern is set to introduce 37 refurbished Class 350 trains onto its network, bringing air conditioning, increased capacity and a more comfortable journey to customers travelling across Manchester and the wider North West.
The trains, which will undergo a £25 million programme of improvements before entering service, will begin replacing Northern's existing 'Class 323' fleet from early 2028.
The newer trains will offer customers noticeable improvements, with air conditioning, more carriages, and luggage racks available when the trains enter service.
At-seat power points will also be available on many routes across the North West for the first time with the introduction of the newer trains.
They will also feature 'Variable Rate Sander (VRS)' technology, a new innovation that can cut the train's stopping distance by up to 50%, helping to keep services running reliably in slippery autumnal and wintery conditions.

Air conditioning, more space and more features: Northern to upgrade North West journeys with longer, better trains | Northern News

Train operator Northern is set to introduce 37 refurbished Class 350 trains onto its network, bringing air conditioning, increased capacity and a more comfortable journey to customers travelling across Manchester and the wider North West.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

Northern has issued media release, seems 350s won't be introduced until 2028

Refers to trains being overhauled at Northampton (presumably the Siemens depot)

Air conditioning, more space and more features: Northern to upgrade North West journeys with longer, better trains | Northern News

Train operator Northern is set to introduce 37 refurbished Class 350 trains onto its network, bringing air conditioning, increased capacity and a more comfortable journey to customers travelling across Manchester and the wider North West.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

Early 2028 seems terribly optimistic given it's mentioned above several times Northern won't be able to get hold of any until around December 2027. The July 2028 timetable change is the likely point for a few 323s to switch over, not early 2028. There is a possibility a small number of them may augment service around the football, which wraps up before the timetable change.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Early 2028 seems terribly optimistic given it's mentioned above several times Northern won't be able to get hold of any until around December 2027.

Agreed, I think back to how long training for the ex-WM 323s took before they could start running on services towards Blackpool, Liverpool, and Wigan.

 

[Liam L]

Agreed, I think back to how long training for the ex-WM 323s took before they could start running on services towards Blackpool, Liverpool, and Wigan.

And that was only depots which didn't have 323s on their cards already, the 350s are brand new traction to northern so will take even longer.

I did think December 2027 was very optimistic when it was first announced but I doubt the early 2028 will be met too.

 

[Park47515]

Northern has issued media release, seems 350s won't be introduced until 2028

Refers to trains being overhauled at Northampton (presumably the Siemens depot)

Air conditioning, more space and more features: Northern to upgrade North West journeys with longer, better trains | Northern News

Train operator Northern is set to introduce 37 refurbished Class 350 trains onto its network, bringing air conditioning, increased capacity and a more comfortable journey to customers travelling across Manchester and the wider North West.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

Notable but not unexpected that the same press release says the trains will be fully GBR branded

The Class 350s will enter service wearing 'Great British Railways' branding, and will be some of the first trains on the network to feature the full 'GBR' interior

 

[em81]

What's the status of the /2s currently? I didn't see any still in service when I was in the Birmingham area last week.

With the LNR sets it doesn't seem unusual for a toilet to be out-of-order. The one I travelled back up to Crewe on had one toilet not in use, fortunately it was a /4.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What's the status of the /2s currently? I didn't see any still in service when I was in the Birmingham area last week.

All stored at Long Marston.
They left LNWR throughout 2025.

 

[Bayum]

Will the 350s run into the same sorts of issues we've had with other stock left in warm storage?

 

[Harvey B]

My one question about this all is what was the point of Northern acquiring 17 extra 323's if they were planning to get with of them about 3 years later? Seems like a waste to me.

I'm happy that Northern are getting 323s though & will probably go over & give them a rode when they enter service

 

[brad465]

Will the 350s run into the same sorts of issues we've had with other stock left in warm storage?

Discussion further upthread suggested Porterbrook were test-running them, and they now have a confirmed future, Porterbrook have over a year to have issues fixed up before they return to service.

 

[Starmill]

My one question about this all is what was the point of Northern acquiring 17 extra 323's if they were planning to get with of them about 3 years later? Seems like a waste to me.

Because the government have been very effectively played by the leasing company, which has control over both. Unfortunately this is just an occupational hazard in leasing trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 22:24 ==

Discussion further upthread suggested Porterbrook were test-running them, and they now have a confirmed future, Porterbrook have over a year to have issues fixed up before they return to service.

The good thing is that unlike with most other trains, at least a lot of that £25m is there to ensure that they are meeting a good mechanical and electronic standard before they get anywhere near the paying customer.

 

[Gricer99]

Will we see these on the Wigan NW to Stalybridge route or something older cascaded, or are we stuck with 769s?

 

[3RDGEN]

My one question about this all is what was the point of Northern acquiring 17 extra 323's if they were planning to get with of them about 3 years later? Seems like a waste to me.

I'm happy that Northern are getting 323s though & will probably go over & give them a rode when they enter service

The 323's were due to be replaced with new build units in the early 2030's under Northern's rolling stock plans, the 350's are reportedly on a 16 year lease with a possible break at 8 years so this avoids the need/cost of buying those new builds. Alternatively the planned new builds could still be orderred and assigned to another operator.

 

[Liam L]

My one question about this all is what was the point of Northern acquiring 17 extra 323's if they were planning to get with of them about 3 years later? Seems like a waste to me.

I'm happy that Northern are getting 323s though & will probably go over & give them a rode when they enter service

Northern intended to run the 323s up untill the fleet was due to replaced with the new stock, and the west midlands units were to gain a refurbishment too. However they reliability and the struggle to get parts has cut their lives in the north west by a few years

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:49 ==

Will the 350s run into the same sorts of issues we've had with other stock left in warm storage?

In theory, no. The units have been kept in warm storage and apparently are ran around the test track on a weekly occurrence at long Marston, also they rotated so all units are kept 'panned up' in storage.

Also units are cycled through to Northampton regularly for maintenance whilst they been in storage and presumably looked after at long Marston too.

 

[em81]

The 323's were due to be replaced with new build units in the early 2030's under Northern's rolling stock plans, the 350's are reportedly on a 16 year lease with a possible break at 8 years so this avoids the need/cost of buying those new builds. Alternatively the planned new builds could still be orderred and assigned to another operator.

The press release (linked above) implies there's currently no change to the new stock order due to the class 350 cascade.

 

[3RDGEN]

The press release (linked above) implies there's currently no change to the new stock order due to the class 350 cascade.

That is true although the Northern tender is still to be announced so may change but it is a three phase call of contract so it's possible the units would go elsewhere or the 350's replaced at the eight year point, wait and see but it gives them options.

 

[childwallblues]

The Northern 323s were as good as the West Mids sets when the Northern sets were maintained at Longsight, and Longsight also maintains the 390s.

I'm sure the staff at Allerton are doing the best they can, but as Soho and Longsight prove, the 323 fleet ether needs ether its own depot or a depot its share with only one other multiple unit type.

You have to remember that Allerton TMD has inheried the 323s and is trying to keep them in service despite a shortage of spare parts.

 

[Geeves]

That is true although the Northern tender is still to be announced so may change but it is a three phase call of contract so it's possible the units would go elsewhere or the 350's replaced at the eight year point, wait and see but it gives them options.

8 years for the 350s with possible extensions sounds about right while waiting for the new trains. 8 years is what we are hearing for the 150 and 156s so that would tally up.

 

[3RDGEN]

8 years for the 350s with possible extensions sounds about right while waiting for the new trains. 8 years is what we are hearing for the 150 and 156s so that would tally up.

There on a 16 year lease with a 16 year maintenance contract to Siemens to match, there is an 8 year break in both contracts if they don't meet certain performance criteria, which given there the bullet proof 350's maintained by Siemens they will meet, so it's a near guarantee it's the full 16 years.

"https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/065810-2026" - "Intention to direct award a 16-year lease of a fleet of 37 Class 350/2 electric multiple units to replace the current Class 323 electric multiple unit fleet which Northern Trains Limited ("Northern") lease and operate on the Northern Network, primarily in the Greater Manchester area. The lease will include an ability for Northern to break the lease after 8 years (in August 2034) where the rolling stock fails to meet performance targets in respect of reliability and availability."

There is the option to send the 350 units elsewhere or to send the new build elsewhere too.

 

[EYFanatic]

Just, in theory, could a 350 do Manchester Vic to Leeds?

 

[3RDGEN]

Just, in theory, could a 350 do Manchester Vic to Leeds?

In 2034 once TRU is planned to be completed yes, but the slow door cycle will not help timings from Staylbridge to Huddersfield.

 

[Geeves]

There on a 16 year lease with a 16 year maintenance contract

There is the option to send the 350 units elsewhere or to send the new build elsewhere too.

I guess time will tell!

Also

I believe work on the door systems is part of the works

 

[43102EMR]

There on a 16 year lease with a 16 year maintenance contract to Siemens to match, there is an 8 year break in both contracts if they don't meet certain performance criteria, which given there the bullet proof 350's maintained by Siemens they will meet, so it's a near guarantee it's the full 16 years.


There is the option to send the 350 units elsewhere or to send the new build elsewhere too.

Not to mention they’re being actively kept in routine maintenance whilst in warm storage, so not like they’ll have a majorly troubled introduction (hopefully…)

 

[Liam L]

Not to mention they’re being actively kept in routine maintenance whilst in warm storage, so not like they’ll have a majorly troubled introduction (hopefully…)

Yes, been ran around the test track at long Marston and regularly rotated so all units have a go at being left panned up

 

[Snow1964]

Not to mention they’re being actively kept in routine maintenance whilst in warm storage, so not like they’ll have a majorly troubled introduction (hopefully…)

Yes, been ran around the test track at long Marston and regularly rotated so all units have a go at being left panned up

So far they have been mainly stored in the warm dry season.

The real damage to vehicles like 175s was during long periods, of cool, damp, condensation, and frozen condensation (moisture and electronics don't mix well). Need to have the heating and evaporation circuits of a/c on much more regularly as temperatures fall in late autumn.

 

[Fokx]

In 2034 once TRU is planned to be completed yes, but the slow door cycle will not help timings from Staylbridge to Huddersfield.

It's roughly the same as the current 185 fleet that have no issues on that exact line

 

[Snow1964]

Just, in theory, could a 350 do Manchester Vic to Leeds?

In theory, having been built to universal C1 dimensions, could operate on any 25kv fully electrified route. (subject to completing formal clearance paperwork).

Of course, which routes they (and the other 350s) will be operating by mid 2030s is for a speculative thread.