Class 172 Production Progress

[trains2064]

As part of LM's possible 2nd batch of 172s, I'd like to see some 4 car 172s. These would be designated 172/4; have end gangways; 2+2 seating throughout; and possibly 1st class seating in the first section of the first carriage (thus giving a formation DMC-MS-MS-DMSL).

The will be more 2 and 3 car sets. Although a DMOS-MOS(L)-MOS-DMOS(L) is a nice idea and the design speak allows for 4 car sets i woud assume a MOS with a Toilet to give 2 would be the call of the day although as all of the platforms on the Snow Hill Lines are being extended to 6 cars where ever possible this should mean a lot of 6 car sets running around so more likely a MOS will be added to the 172/2 to give 3 car sets.
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Next LM 172 arrives 6th June.
Next 2 will be 13th June straight to Worcester. Worcs drivers have been told
they will be handling between Worcs & Glos. I believe they are not happy as
they would prefer to handle on Snow Hill lines to Stratford/Leamington as
that is what the units will be doing + weekend Herefords as per existing 150
diagrams.

Not confirmed as going straight to Worcester as mileage running is between Stratford and Tyseley. If units end up at Worcester these are more likely to be ones that are ready for service. ie completed there 1000 fault free running.

 

[MCR247]

Have 171s ever worked with 377s?

Probably at some point, although it wouldn't have been in passenger service

 

[Pumbaa]

Fairly sure they've shunted each other round Selhurst before for proving purposes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm 99% sure it is for rescue of a defective train only.

 

[Rhydgaled]

To be honest once they have all their 172s, LM should go to the back of the queue for new DMUs there are others much more in need of new DMUS for differing reasons such as Northern, Arriva Trains Wales First Great Western (ex Wessex Service) could do with extra units to replace Pacer, 150 and 153 fleets. Transpennine need them as they dont have enough units and should Northern Hub come to fruition... Give some to NXEA to release the 170s and more importantly the 156s for cascade elseswhere. London Midland shoud not receive any more new trains for quite awhile IMHO

Where would you put 172s in Wales? The best place for them in Wales would I think be the ValleyLines. However, the ValleyLines would be much better off with electrification and a fleet of new 2-car and 3-car Electrostars, with gangways similar to the 377s and LM 172s.

Anyone know how much LM's 172 cars weigh? The widely dispersed nature of much of Wales means it is best to keep maintenance costs to a minimum. Sprinters I expect do less damage to the track, and have better fuel ecconomy, than most newer units thanks to their lower weight:

150/2 (DMSL - 35.8 tonnes - DMS - 34.9 tonnes) versus 170 (about 45.2 tonnes per car)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
153 (41.2 tonnes), 155 (39 tonnes per car) versus 170 (about 45.2 tonnes per car)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
156 (DMSL - 36.1 tonnes - DMS - 35.5 tonnes), 158 (DMSL - 38.1 tonnes - DMS - 37.8 tonnes) versus 175 (DMS - 51 tonnes - MSL - 47.5 tonnes)

So, apart from the ValleyLines (where some electric units would go down very nicely) you can keep your new stock so long as you life-extend our Sprinters and cascade us lots more, particularlly 156s and 158s as we already have a fair number of 150s which would be available if and when the ValleyLines get electric stock. If 172s are significantly better than 170s though perhaps some end-corridor-fitted examples could start replacing some of our 150s or 153s.

 

[sprinterguy]

Anyone know how much LM's 172 cars weigh?

About 5 tonnes less than a standard class 170 carriage: 41.3t for the DMS, 41.9t for the DMSL.

I’m in agreement with you that I’d much rather see the Valley Lines electrified.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I expect that the recent rise in the profile of Swansea might help in the case for electrification from Cardiff onwards to Swansea. I really do think that the fact that Swansea's football team have made it up the ladder into the Premier football league will make some decision makers aware of the very existence of the town !. I am not joking. I think electrification of the valley lines is more likely though.

 

[anthony263]

I think both will happen. I think some in the DFT are starting to wake up to the potential problems and high cost's problems with the Bi mode IEP (I am sure hitachi would prefer to just build electric versions)

especially since some in the industry have pointed out that it would be simpler to just use a diesel loco and that it would take a lot less than 9 minutes to couple/uncouple a locomotive. where the wires end.

Maybe they should order 10 carriage electric sets for the east coast mainline with a few class 91's & mk4 stock to work through to Inverness etc using a class 67 loco.

As for the London - Hereford services, if grand central do purchase some of those polaris locomotives and free up their class 180's they could be transfered to work the london - Worcester/Hereford services operating in pairs between London & Oxford during the peaks.

The rest could be transfered to FGW to work the london to Penzance services. If the wires were to reach Taunton or exeter st davids FGW could use their class 57's in fact why not use a class 90 or something to haul the sleepers from exeter to London paddington if there are wires in place.

Hopefully as the great western is wired the case for extending the wires will be improved, for example Swindon/Severn Tunnel Jct/Bristol Parkway - Gloucester - Birmingham that means that crosscountry could use electric trains to work services if the wires do reach exeter

 

[sprinterguy]

There’s a heck of a lot of sense being spoken here. A more thorough programme of electrification projects is all that is needed to drastically reduce the complexity (and the cost) of the Intercity Express Project. Electrification to Swansea as part of the GWML and from Edinburgh to Aberdeen as part of Transport for Scotlands’ ongoing electrification plans would mean that two fleets of pure electric, ten carriage IEP trains would be all that was needed, with some of the 225s retained and split between both GWML and ECML to operate the few remaining services travelling beyond the limits of electrification, to Inverness or West Wales. And, as you say, the 180s would work the Cotswolds services to Worcester and Hereford.

Electrification of the Midland Main line through to Doncaster and Wakefield in around 2025 would then release the Meridians to replace the remaining South West HSTs, before electrification to Plymouth is undertaken when the Meridians become life expired at a future date.

 

[MCR247]

Maybe they should order 10 carriage electric sets for the east coast mainline with a few class 91's & mk4 stock to work through to Inverness etc using a class 67 loco.

You'd want 11 car EMUs and why keep 91s and MK4s since this would be impractical due to the lack of run around at INV. Could you not just order some purpose built locos that can use push-pull with the EMUs. They would also be used as thunderbirds, and would be used in similar situations on other lines

 

[387star]

There are not enough 7-car meridians and the FGW HSTs through to Cornwall are already packed.

 

[anthony263]

personally i think providing paths are available, the London - Bedwyn trains should all be extended to Taunton serving Westbury etc to hopefully take some of the strain off the London - Penzance trains which operate via the berk & hants route.

 

[Woody]

As a regular user of FGW HSTs west of Taunton most London bound trains are already packed by the time they reach Taunton so extending the London - Bedwyn trains to Taunton would have very little effect on current loadings.What is needed is either a more frequent service at least at busy times or a fleet of reformed 2+9 HSTs possibly using the extra Mk3 coaches FGW intends to standardise its HST fleet to 2+8 formation.

 

[Nym]

Said it before, will say it again, Loco can be controlled by the EMU acting as a DVT...

Or, Electrify the Midland Mainline, all of it, free up 27 diesel units. Electrodieselify them if required, and use them to replace HSTs that couldn't be replaced by the electrification of the GWML, using 221s to suplement, displaced by the Crewe - Chester electrification

Et voila, no more requirement for Bi-Mode IEPs...

 

[Anvil1984]

Where would you put 172s in Wales? The best place for them in Wales would I think be the ValleyLines. However, the ValleyLines would be much better off with electrification and a fleet of new 2-car and 3-car Electrostars, with gangways similar to the 377s and LM 172s.

Anyone know how much LM's 172 cars weigh? The widely dispersed nature of much of Wales means it is best to keep maintenance costs to a minimum. Sprinters I expect do less damage to the track, and have better fuel ecconomy, than most newer units thanks to their lower weight:

150/2 (DMSL - 35.8 tonnes - DMS - 34.9 tonnes) versus 170 (about 45.2 tonnes per car)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
153 (41.2 tonnes), 155 (39 tonnes per car) versus 170 (about 45.2 tonnes per car)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
156 (DMSL - 36.1 tonnes - DMS - 35.5 tonnes), 158 (DMSL - 38.1 tonnes - DMS - 37.8 tonnes) versus 175 (DMS - 51 tonnes - MSL - 47.5 tonnes)

So, apart from the ValleyLines (where some electric units would go down very nicely) you can keep your new stock so long as you life-extend our Sprinters and cascade us lots more, particularlly 156s and 158s as we already have a fair number of 150s which would be available if and when the ValleyLines get electric stock. If 172s are significantly better than 170s though perhaps some end-corridor-fitted examples could start replacing some of our 150s or 153s.

To be honest as I dont know the answer I am going to sit on the fence and say I dont know, but to see other areas get units to replace the likes of the 150s (London Midland) whilst ourselves at Northern and looking at ATW coping day to day with 153s, 142s and 150s and not having any chance of replacement in near future starts to grate. I would rather a rolling electrification system for up here, could be done as part of two major schemed TPE and MML but that could be 20 years easily away

 

[MCR247]

Said it before, will say it again, Loco can be controlled by the EMU acting as a DVT...

Brilliant idea! I've always thought that was the solution, but wait hang on a sec, thats too sensible :roll:

 

[bb21]

Does anyone have a picture of the Chiltern one?

I'm probably slightly late with this. Caught it at Derby station just coming out of Etches Park while waiting for my XC HST to the Sheffield meal last week. Saw it just as the station announcement for the HST came on and had to dash across from Platform 1 to Platform 5 to snap a couple of shots on my phone and then rush back to Platform 1 as the HST pulled in. Quality not very good but then I only had about 20 seconds. Unit formation 172104+172102+172103.

 

[Class172]

On the chiltern units, what is the yellowey/orange band on the second set of doors of each carriage? Is it a quiet zone or something?

 

[jopsuk]

Wheelchair area?

 

[Class172]

If it is a wheelchair area why can't they use a badge like everyone else that is easily recognisable

 

[oversteer]

The 172102/3/4 are still at Wembley with 'scaz' and a rather lonely W&S buffet car. Not sure where 172101 is !

Did they have spare windows left from when they built the 165s then ?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

On the chiltern units, what is the yellowey/orange band on the second set of doors of each carriage? Is it a quiet zone or something?

Its always the door nearest the toilet on Chiltern units. I assume the stripe is there to assist staff performing CET duties (so they can tell where the tank is at a glance) but I have never actually asked. But the stripe is always on the door nearest the bog.

 

[TomJ93]

The exhaust looks unusual on these units I found out yesterday!

 

[Skimble19]

The 172102/3/4 are still at Wembley with 'scaz' and a rather lonely W&S buffet car. Not sure where 172101 is !

Did they have spare windows left from when they built the 165s then ?

I highly doubt they've used spare windows from the 165's.. whilst the Networker was the predecessor to the Electrostar/Turbostar the windows have changed substantially since then at least twice.

 

[MCR247]

Did they have spare windows left from when they built the 165s then ?

Are you being serious?

 

[Skimble19]

I was wondering that too, but thought I'd answer anyway There is of course one other flaw with that question - the windows the 165's have now aren't the ones they were built with..!

 

[oversteer]

Tongue firmly in cheek :P
Although, I was surprised they didn't have the same style windows as the other Turbostars.

 

[Skimble19]

I believe that's something to do with the safety of the Ribbon Glass style windows.. I'm sure somebody else on here will know the reason in a bit more detail but it's basically that. It definitely does make them look more like Networkers without the Ribbon windows though..!

 

[cj_1985]

i thought that the change in window style was , in part, to do with reduced weight and part to do with reduced time out of service when replacing windows

 

[lewisf]

Said it before, will say it again, Loco can be controlled by the EMU acting as a DVT...

The old 3rd rail slammers and 442's can actually do this with a 33/1 or 73.

In terms of the windows I see the're the same as 378s and 379s.