c2c more stock

[D365]

Why won't they do it?

 

[Domh245]

Why won't they do it?

I imagine that HEx runs are preferable from a driving perspective because there are fewer stops, and favourable from a dispatch perspective because there are fewer stops. Less chance to make mistakes. It also looks like the view out of a 360 is wider, there might be DOO-equipment sighting issues with 332s?

 

[JN114]

I seem to recall seeing a Class 332 in Heathrow Connect livery years ago in Old Oak Common so I don't see why they can't be used on HC services.

The Connect liveried 332 was for the inter-terminal shuttle when it first started. It didn't take them long (may have been a matter of a few test runs) to decide it wasn't suitable for the task, hence why we have 360205 now.

There are several reasons why 332s will never operate the Connect service.

My understanding after speaking to colleagues who work at HX is that while they are DOO, HX's safety case doesn't permit them to be used without dispatch staff present. Ealing Broadway is the only station with dispatch staff connect call at, and none have CD/RA equipment.

They accelerate like a pig - they lose time compared to the 360s on the short run between T4 and Central, how are they expected to cope with the short station to station runs between Hayes and London.

A 5/332 would be a significant reduction in seated capacity, the 2+2 wide seats would limit standing space, and they altogether wouldn't be suited for the suburban nature of the Connect service. A 4/332 would be even worse.

HX don't have any 'spare' 5/332s - they have 5 for 5 weekday 9 car circuits. Short forms frequently occur.

***

Don't get me wrong, I have no idea what c2c plans to do. But forcing an operator with only 5 trains to give up 40% of their fleet, and the inevitable reduction in service that results in, just smacks of being incredibly unlikely. There are other options available, that have nowhere near as much impact.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As I said before. I really cannot see why c2c would want a couple of five-car units when everything else they have is four-car. Five-car units are fairly rare anyway so really narrows their choice down.

If they are going to run units that do not couple to their 357s then it surely does not matter if the train is 12-cars rather than 10-cars ?. After all 12-car trains are fairly common on c2c.

 

[Stow]

My understanding of this whole situation is that the HC service is jointly operated by GWR and HEX, with the service as far as Hayes & Harlington being a franchised service and then open access to the airport. If GWR decide that now they have their own trains, they can simply operate these to Hayes in the existing paths, chopping the HC service in half. That then leaves HEX with some spare trains I would expect.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My understanding of this whole situation is that the HC service is jointly operated by GWR and HEX, with the service as far as Hayes & Harlington being a franchised service and then open access to the airport. If GWR decide that now they have their own trains, they can simply operate these to Hayes in the existing paths, chopping the HC service in half. That then leaves HEX with some spare trains I would expect.

That is the only reason I can see.

 

[Bishopstone]

I was a LTS commuter during a previous stock crisis. I believe the 357s were late in introduction, or suffered teething problems. That crisis was addressed with units of irregular length, namely 310s from the West Midlands which had lost a trailer at an earlier date. So there is a precedent.

It used to be a pain in the morning peak, waiting under the bridge at Barking for coach 12 which usually had spare seats (those were the days!), only to find you were bowled by an 11 - or even 10 car - rake.

In terms of stock uniformity, I believe there was a brief period when LTS ran four classes of unit: 302, 310, 312 and 317.

 

[Mikey C]

My understanding of this whole situation is that the HC service is jointly operated by GWR and HEX, with the service as far as Hayes & Harlington being a franchised service and then open access to the airport. If GWR decide that now they have their own trains, they can simply operate these to Hayes in the existing paths, chopping the HC service in half. That then leaves HEX with some spare trains I would expect.

As Heathrow Connect will effectively be replaced by Crossrail, it would seem bizarre to chop the service in two for 2 years, when logically if anything you'd be building up the service.

Especially when the reason for this wasn't a technical one, but rather so that the stock can be pinched and lent to an operator who uses completely different stock!

I can just imagine the media and political storm if it was announced that Heathrow Connect was being cut back, forcing all airport users from Paddington to use the extortionately Heathrow Excess for 2 years?

 

[JN114]

The GWR/HX relationship for connect services is quite complex, and many aspects of it are confidential/commercially sensitive.

But the simple version is that GWR's involvement is primarily providing a safety case for operating a stopping service between Hayes and Paddington, and some revenue protection duties.

While it's physically possible to terminate at Hayes from Heathrow, it would tie up the Up Relief and Up Airport Relief for an unacceptably long time, especially in the peaks.

 

[87015]

C2c 360 deal now OFF according to those in the know. No replacement lined up for additional capacity.

 

[MatthewRead]

C2c 360 deal now OFF according to those in the know. No replacement lined up for additional capacity.

So what happens now?

 

[Nym]

319s? Electrostars?

 

[Class 170101]

C2c 360 deal now OFF according to those in the know. No replacement lined up for additional capacity.

Not surprised - totally non-standard and expensive.

319s would be better and cheaper for c2c.

 

[Class377/5]

Or maybe just get its new stock early?

 

[D365]

Or maybe just get its new stock early?

Won't come in time for May this year. Has to be a temporary (unless they decide on keeping a few 319s...).

 

[fgwrich]

Or maybe just get its new stock early?

Won't come in time for May this year. Has to be a temporary (unless they decide on keeping a few 319s...).

How far on schedule can Bombardier knock together a few Electrostars? If the GWR ones aren't required to the original timescales, could the Porterbrook ones be started first? Yes they're 387s, but in part a little bit more compatible than a 360 ever was going to be!

 

[Class377/5]

Won't come in time for May this year. Has to be a temporary (unless they decide on keeping a few 319s...).

Was it ever confirmed the 360s would be ready for May? No 319s going spare by May anyway.

How far on schedule can Bombardier knock together a few Electrostars? If the GWR ones aren't required to the original timescales, could the Porterbrook ones be started first? Yes they're 387s, but in part a little bit more compatible than a 360 ever was going to be!

Porterbrook ones are supposed to be started first as GWR doesn't need them all yet. According to what I've heard the c2c order will start being built this year anyway.

 

[hwl]

Porterbrook ones are supposed to be started first as GWR doesn't need them all yet. According to what I've heard the c2c order will start being built this year anyway.

Who has got the C2C order if construction is starting this year - Bombardier?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would short loco-hauled rakes be an option (if there's any not spoken for elsewhere) as a stop-gap until their new units arrive?

 

[jopsuk]

No, there's no way acceleration would be good enough and I bet there's plenty of MU differentials.

 

[Wivenswold]

They've hired 321s before. No reason to not do it again.

 

[43074]

They've hired 321s before. No reason to not do it again.

Aside from there being no 321s spare at the moment.

 

[47802]

Who has got the C2C order if construction is starting this year - Bombardier?

Indeed I didn't think anything had been announced on that so far, presumably Class377/5 knows something on that.

One wonders if they got the right deal from Porterbrook that they might abandon their procurement and go for the Porterbrook speculative 387 order instead.

 

[Wivenswold]

Aside from there being no 321s spare at the moment.

There will be if AGA get 5 additional 360s.

 

[43074]

There will be if AGA get 5 additional 360s.

Do you have a source for this?

It seems unlikely that they would release any 321s even if that does happen, the most likely thing to happen would be a few shoulder peak services lengthened from 4 to 8 or 8 to 12 coaches.

 

[fgwrich]

There will be if AGA get 5 additional 360s.

Maybe so, but where would the 360s be released from? The HC ones are unlikely to be released until CrossRail begins, which is t due to start for another 2 years. Which doesn't help C2C this year.

So the only AC Ex BR units going spare this quarter will be ex Thameslink 319s. Which, with the right training may well have to do unless they sign some of the Porterbrook speculative 387s.

 

[MatthewRead]

What could happen is C2C take on the ex-Thamslink 387s and they keep a few 319s to cover for the shortfall

 

[colchesterken]

I am sure I have missed a post on the subject, but did all the 9 cl 317s that Abellio did not take from NXEA get used, if not they would be a good addition for rush hour trains. They used to have them so there must be some drivers who just need a refresher course
They could be maintained at Ilford under contract with C2C as they do all the others

 

[hwl]

What could happen is C2C take on the ex-Thamslink 387s and they keep a few 319s to cover for the shortfall

TSGN will probably be releasing some 321s later this year any way (see 377/5 transfer to GN thread)
GWR still want and need some 387s soon to operate the Hayes and Harlington to Paddington services to allow the cascade of DMUs further West (as northern will be getting some ex GWR DMUs)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

TSGN will probably be releasing some 321s later this year any way (see 377/5 transfer to GN thread)

Isn't there a chance that they'll just use them to strengthen other services from that they're currently used on?