c2c more stock

[chris11256]

Won't come in time for May this year. Has to be a temporary (unless they decide on keeping a few 319s...).

Would 319's be able to keep up with 357's for timetabling purposes?

 

[hwl]

Isn't there a chance that they'll just use them to strengthen other services from that they're currently used on?

That would be sensible but this is TSGN! The cascade plan set out in the DFT tender docs + everything on the forums suggests that the plan isn't really to add extra capacity for while but introduce new stock and cascade the existing to its new homes except there are yet new homes for the 317s 321s or most 319s at the moment.

 

[D365]

Would 319's be able to keep up with 357's for timetabling purposes?

Depends on how the timings have been altered in the timetable recast, remember that 321s have previously been drafted in since the Class 357 fleet was introduced.

That would be sensible but this is TSGN!

That's what the 377/5s and remaining 365s are there for; all Great Northern trains (Moorgate excluded) will be 8 or 12 cars.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it possible that the two 360s apparently surplus from Heathrow Connect are actually going to AGA, so that operator can release two 321s to c2c? As far as I can see this would make a lot more sense than the original proposal. The 360s would be with an operator that already runs similar ones, and as mentioned above c2c has relatively recent experience with 321s.

 

[Class377/5]

Indeed I didn't think anything had been announced on that so far, presumably Class377/5 knows something on that.

One wonders if they got the right deal from Porterbrook that they might abandon their procurement and go for the Porterbrook speculative 387 order instead.

I've been told the plan (for the long term units). Whether it remains so is another question.

As for the latter, who says they aren't the same thing?

Maybe so, but where would the 360s be released from? The HC ones are unlikely to be released until CrossRail begins, which is t due to start for another 2 years. Which doesn't help C2C this year.

So the only AC Ex BR units going spare this quarter will be ex Thameslink 319s. Which, with the right training may well have to do unless they sign some of the Porterbrook speculative 387s.

There are no 319s going spare until end of Summer so not a clue where you get the idea they are suddenly free in the next few months.

The 387s are not TSGN's to hire out but GWR who require them shortly for thier services on already electfied route in connection with service alterations. However later batches may be able to be diverted but that's pure speculation.

 

[hwl]

Depends on how the timings have been altered in the timetable recast, remember that 321s have previously been drafted in since the Class 357 fleet was introduced.




That's what the 377/5s and remaining 365s are there for; all Great Northern trains (Moorgate excluded) will be 8 or 12 cars.

I was think about getting more Thameslink services running as 12 car now ditto Southern's less than full length services too rather than just using the new stock on 1-in 1-out basis as seen so far with 387 replacing 319s etc. while still having short services, it applies less to GN than the other parts of TSGN who are the majority of their passengers...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are all 319s currently spoken for by one or another TOC?

 

[D365]

Are all 319s currently spoken for by one or another TOC?

Nope, but all 319s that have been displaced up to this point have new homes. Only once the 700s come in are the bulk of the remainder available.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any Southern routes that the 319s could be used on, to free up a few 377s to loan to C2C?

 

[MatthewRead]

Is there any Southern routes that the 319s could be used on, to free up a few 377s to loan to C2C?

Yes Brighton-London Bridge that would release a 377

 

[Class377/5]

Are all 319s currently spoken for by one or another TOC?

Yes, all 319s are spoken for. LM took the last two 'spare' units.

Is there any Southern routes that the 319s could be used on, to free up a few 377s to loan to C2C?

Add in 4-6 months for driver trining on Southern routes

Yes Brighton-London Bridge that would release a 377

You mean the Thameslink services? The Southern DC only ones interwork during the day with Southern branded services so its a non starter.

 

[Wivenswold]

Do you have a source for this?

It seems unlikely that they would release any 321s even if that does happen, the most likely thing to happen would be a few shoulder peak services lengthened from 4 to 8 or 8 to 12 coaches.

No, just looking at the situation and looking for answers.

 

[87015]

No, just looking at the situation and looking for answers.

Don't overlook that this isn't a planned cascade in any form. Complicated, time consuming and expensive are probably not what is needed or wanted!

 

[MatthewRead]

Yes, all 319s are spoken for. LM took the last two 'spare' units.



Add in 4-6 months for driver trining on Southern routes



You mean the Thameslink services? The Southern DC only ones interwork during the day with Southern branded services so its a non starter.

But that way it will also release a Southern 377 for strengthening elsewhere it seems illogical to be using Southern branded 377s on services branded Thameslink!

 

[Class377/5]

But that way it will also release a Southern 377 for strengthening elsewhere it seems illogical to be using Southern branded 377s on services branded Thameslink!

Problem is they are only used off peak so you won't actually strengthen anything as they are needed for other service don't have time to go elsewhere.

It makes prefect sense to use DC only 377 on DC only services especially when you realise that the DV 377/387 are now covering for some Southern services on the Redhill corridor means TL needs more stock (due to slower jounery times).

 

[MatthewRead]

Problem is they are only used off peak so you won't actually strengthen anything as they are needed for other service don't have time to go elsewhere.

It makes prefect sense to use DC only 377 on DC only services especially when you realise that the DV 377/387 are now covering for some Southern services on the Redhill corridor means TL needs more stock (due to slower jounery times).

I've never seen any Thameslink branded trains on any Southern services several Victoria-South Coast services are being short formed because of this therefore we need 319s or 442s on the London Bridge Brighton services which would release a DC only 377 to strengthen another service!

 

[Class377/5]

I've never seen any Thameslink branded trains on any Southern services several Victoria-South Coast services are being short formed because of this therefore we need 319s or 442s on the London Bridge Brighton services which would release a DC only 377 to strengthen another service!

Southern stopping services on Redhill have now transferred to Thameslink (first of many) so releasing Southern services to speed up while requiring Thameslink to have more stock.

Theres no spare 319s and Thameslink drivers don't sign 442 so that's a no go.

I don't think you get your suggestion don't release stock anything like you do without reducing some peak services (I know the diagrams).

And for the record your suggestion of short formed Southern services because some units are used on Thameslink is completely wrong, this is an actual fact. Simply repeting your error doesn't make you correct, just ill informed and refusing to listen to reason.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What classes of Electrostar are compatible with C2C's units without modification (inc any that are currently DC only if AC enabled)?

 

[D365]

What classes of Electrostar are compatible with C2C's units without modification (inc any that are currently DC only if AC enabled)?

None, currently. The Class 357 fleet is fitted with Tightlock couplers as opposed to the later Dellners.

 

[MatthewRead]

Southern stopping services on Redhill have now transferred to Thameslink (first of many) so releasing Southern services to speed up while requiring Thameslink to have more stock.

Theres no spare 319s and Thameslink drivers don't sign 442 so that's a no go.

I don't think you get your suggestion don't release stock anything like you do without reducing some peak services (I know the diagrams).

And for the record your suggestion of short formed Southern services because some units are used on Thameslink is completely wrong, this is an actual fact. Simply repeting your error doesn't make you correct, just ill informed and refusing to listen to reason.

Ok I understand it's just after seeing and hearing about short formed services from colleagues at South West Trains I kept blaming the use of DC Southern 377s on Thameslink services and I thought that now that Southern and Thameslink are more or less the same company that they could use redundant class 442s but seeing as they drive differently to the 377s I now understand.

 

[Class377/5]

Ok I understand it's just after seeing and hearing about short formed services from colleagues at South West Trains I kept blaming the use of DC Southern 377s on Thameslink services and I thought that now that Southern and Thameslink are more or less the same company that they could use redundant class 442s but seeing as they drive differently to the 377s I now understand.

SWT staff? Southern is part of Thameslink now company wise as Southern is only a brand not a company.

 

[WatcherZero]

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/news/14288224.Deal_for_extra_c2c_carriages_falls_through/

C2C been told the units are no longer available despite their agreement in principle.

 

[MatthewRead]

SWT staff? Southern is part of Thameslink now company wise as Southern is only a brand not a company.

I know they are owned by GoVia

 

[Peter Sarf]

I know they are owned by GoVia

Matthew. Just to clarify. You mentioned SWT (South West Trains) and this is not part of Govia. I can see you are probably only referring to conversations with SWT staff who have noticed Southern stock shortages.

Some of the confusion about Southern stock working Thameslink is because a number of Southern branded 377/2s have been transferred/sub-leased to Thsmeslink for quite a while (5 years maybe ?). If I remember correctly some of the 377/6s and 377/7s were ordered to "pay" for the 377/2s that Southern lost. I think this might also apply to some Southern branded 319s. Indeed Southern never got eleven or twelve of the 377/5s they expected to get but these are in First livery so not such an obvious confusion !.

Think I got that right ?.

As the new class 700s arrive there will at last be plenty of stock. Not immediately for Southern though. First of all the Thameslink route trains will all get lengthened to 12 coaches (or 8 coaches for things like the Sutton/Wimbledon loop and Tattenham). Eventually all the 319s, 377s and 387s will go their various ways but not necessarily to Southern. Meanwhile I gather that the main problem affecting TSGN is driver shortages ?.

 

[MatthewRead]

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/news/14288224.Deal_for_extra_c2c_carriages_falls_through/

C2C been told the units are no longer available despite their agreement in principle.

Just read not happy at all I was looking forward to be seeing more of a variety of stock on that line:cry:

 

[southern442]

Just read not happy at all I was looking forward to be seeing more of a variety of stock on that line:cry:

I was looking forward to seeing the 7-carconverted pantograph-fitted-442-360-321-377-Dstock-230-Isleofwighttramtrain-Thameslink-SWT-Southern-AGA-FordTransitVan hybrids!

I think that pretty much sums up RailUKforums to be honest.

 

[jopsuk]

Wot no D-Stock with a pantograph on the roof and a transformer instead of a transit engine?

 

[southern442]

wot no d-stock with a pantograph on the roof and a transformer instead of a transit engine?

I must edit my post immediately

 

[Class377/5]

Matthew. Just to clarify. You mentioned SWT (South West Trains) and this is not part of Govia. I can see you are probably only referring to conversations with SWT staff who have noticed Southern stock shortages.

Some of the confusion about Southern stock working Thameslink is because a number of Southern branded 377/2s have been transferred/sub-leased to Thsmeslink for quite a while (5 years maybe ?). If I remember correctly some of the 377/6s and 377/7s were ordered to "pay" for the 377/2s that Southern lost. I think this might also apply to some Southern branded 319s. Indeed Southern never got eleven or twelve of the 377/5s they expected to get but these are in First livery so not such an obvious confusion !.

Think I got that right ?.

As the new class 700s arrive there will at last be plenty of stock. Not immediately for Southern though. First of all the Thameslink route trains will all get lengthened to 12 coaches (or 8 coaches for things like the Sutton/Wimbledon loop and Tattenham). Eventually all the 319s, 377s and 387s will go their various ways but not necessarily to Southern. Meanwhile I gather that the main problem affecting TSGN is driver shortages ?.

377207/211/212 in FCC colours transferred in 2011, 377208-210/213-215 transferred in early 2014.

The 26x 377/6 were direct replacement for the 26x 377 FCC had (23x 377/5 and 3x 377/2). The 377/7 order was granted on basis of 8x 377/7 replacing 6x 377/2 going to FCC and doing train lengthening.

For the record, Southern, Southeastern, Great Western, London Midland and Northern franchises have all benefitted from the Thameslink Programme.

 

[The 4th Rail]

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/news/14288224.Deal_for_extra_c2c_carriages_falls_through/

C2C been told the units are no longer available despite their agreement in principle.

Did Heathrow Connect only just realise they couldn't operate their service with 2 less units????

Also the comments on this article are well... interesting.

*EDIT* only just saw post on the 16th saying the deal was off, still puzzles me that Heathrow connect were potentially gonna let these units go.