Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[NHG66]

Was brought up 4 miles from Bradford city centre and left to join the RAF back in 1984. I visit my family up there once a year and have seen the place go downhill ever since ( not that it was ever anything great mind)
Best bet would be to flatten the whole place and start again, it is so run down it is shocking. It must be the worst place in West Yorkshire and I pity anyone unfortunate enough to be born there these days.

 

[Deerfold]

I want to correct HTAFC's comments about buses between the Calder Valley and Airedale. I live 100m from a bus stop on the 500 Hebden Bridge to Keighley route and it has never been summer only. It is nowadays an hourly, 7 day a week service that runs without Metro subsidy.

The route wasn't summer only, but as someone who's used it a lot since the 80s it used to run 3 times a day on Wednesdays, 4 times on Saturdays, becoming daily in Summer with 3 services a day Sunday-Friday. All but the 4th Saturday service extended to Todmorden.

Between Keighley and Oxenhope it has now replaced journeys on the 663 where previously it provided a small number of additional journeys.

Halifax to Keighley indeed only has a few direct buses on a Sunday, but there is still an hourly weekday service with connections at Denholme.

That went when First had a little run of completely withdrawing services that had previously run all day.
The 502 (another one I used to catch regularly) ran hourly all day every day until 2320 from Keighley (except, oddly after 1820 on a Sunday) with an additional morning peak service. This then went to nothing in one move (First did a similar trick with the Halifax - Oldham 562 - which I also used to use a lot - perhaps they've just got something against me ).

Annoyingly if you use it to commute to Keighley you have to get the 1700 from Keighley to catch the last connection. If they delayed it by just 10 minutes, people could connect from the 1730.

WY Metro refused to subsidise a direct Halifax-Keighley bus when First withdrew the service. If they are unwilling to spend £1,000s to on a direct bus link, I don't think there's much chance of spending £100ms on an anything but direct rail link.

I understand the main reason for not providing a direct link was that between Keighley and Denholme it could have been seen as competing with Keighley and District's 696-698 services as it would have to either mirror their routes or miss out Cullingworth, providing faster journeys.

Between Halifax and Illingworth it does not go the route of the old 502 so does not compete directly with routes such as the 521.

 

[quantinghome]

It's been established (if not in this thread then in the previous thread(s) on the topic) that Bradford - Leeds takes the same time whichever of the 2 available routes you take. So routing Calder Valley trains via Shipley should not take any more time (assuming you have 1 central station) as the time taken to travel across the gap would be compensated for by not having to reverse at the Interchange.

Fair enough, except that there would be 4 more trains per hour on the already busy stretch of line between Shipley and Leeds. On top of that, the Bradford FS - Leeds service are planned to stop at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge in a couple of years' time. If the current shuttle service were to be subsumed into the rerouted Cader Valleys, this WILL mean longer journeys. AND you'd probably need passing loops or four-tracking to maintain the service. I'm struggling to see any winners from this.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for your interest, but I'd be keen to learn how it would be so. Perhaps the northern connection from Interchange to the Leeds via Pudsey line to avoid reversals for Leeds - Halifax trains would be just as unaffordable as the Crossrail idea, but if a connection between the existing stations (whether they are replaced by a new central one or not) would be technically feasible then I don't understand why a smaller scheme to resite the Shipley line terminal platforms alone in or under the Broadway shopping centre would be impossible. That could offer a decent pedestrian link to connect the Shipley lines with the main bus station and the Interchange rail routes without any significant expenditure at Interchange. Are you suggesting a 250m traffic-free level walk between the concourses is too far for passengers making an interchange? In that case catering for 400m trains on HS2 trains is clearly a waste of money, as no-one will be able to walk to the front at a terminal station!

Those are powerful points. I really think Bradford councillors and the Westfield investors need to see the value of a rail connection that finishes under their shops. Nottingham Victoria could have been (still could be?) the same.
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Was brought up 4 miles from Bradford city centre and left to join the RAF back in 1984. I visit my family up there once a year and have seen the place go downhill ever since ( not that it was ever anything great mind)
Best bet would be to flatten the whole place and start again, it is so run down it is shocking. It must be the worst place in West Yorkshire and I pity anyone unfortunate enough to be born there these days.

That is a very poignant view. I really think rail access from the leafy outskirts is a lifeline opportunity for city centres. It seems that few can see this, yet where such is laid on (trams also fine), the city centres thrive.

If I may briefly respond to the point made by an earlier poster on needing the car to load the roofing felt in, of course OOT centres for DIY is fine. It's comparison shopping that is best centered in the cultural environment of our oldest cities. Bradford should surely understand this unless they are all thick on the council?

 

[Grumpy]

Except it wasn't. The old Forster Square was where the HMRC building now is, Exchange was where the Crown Court now is. The land inbetween was available, the whole Forster Square/Broadway/Petergate area was bulldozed and redeveloped in the 1960s. A railway station instead of those horrible crumbling concrete towers and dingy flooded subways would have been much better.

My comment about the demolition now required is perfectly valid. To get from the current site of Forster Square to the current site of the Interchange you would have to build through the HMRC and Royal Mail buildings, then down through what was Broadway/Petergate and then across Hall Ings and up through where the Crown Court now is.

It's possible, but it would be extraordinarily expensive.



Trinity Leeds says you're wrong.

MarkyT's map is interesting, although completely impracticable.

Having worked (very briefly) at Exchange and Forster Square in the mid 1960's, I realise where they were. However my recollection of what lay in between is somewhat fuzzy and I bow to your greater knowledge of that time.

With regard to the feasibility of a link (admitting the opportunity has probably gone) having walked around the area several times earlier this year, I think IanD has it right and a link could have been put in reasonably cheaply without demolishing the Court and without the need for long viaducts.
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Fair enough, except that there would be 4 more trains per hour on the already busy stretch of line between Shipley and Leeds. On top of that, the Bradford FS - Leeds service are planned to stop at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge in a couple of years' time. If the current shuttle service were to be subsumed into the rerouted Cader Valleys, this WILL mean longer journeys. AND you'd probably need passing loops or four-tracking to maintain the service. I'm struggling to see any winners from this.

You don't need to transfer all the Calder Valley trains via Shipley. Just switch (say) two over to give a through service Shipley-Halifax and beyond. Offset partly by transferring the Leeds-Morecambe/S&C trains via New Pudsey to give there and Bradford through services.

The Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield service is a bit of a joke-if it has any purpose it is to provide a Bradford-Huddersfield and intermediate points link (even though the buses are arguably better). Given that there are approx 6 trains an hour between Leeds and Bradford you could save money by taking this off between Leeds and Bradford (5 trains/hour would be more than adequate) and extend a Skipton -Bradford service to retain the Bradford-Huddersfield link but of course now making this direct from Bradford-Skipton intermediate points.

 

[Darren R]

Supporters of the idea seem to be getting hung up on the current need to reverse at Bradford Interchange and how journeys would be speeded up by avoiding it. Station layover times at Bradford Interchange are three minutes - it's not as if passengers are sitting on a train going nowhere for ten minutes or more. And even without reversal, it would still need a station layover time of a few minutes because it's such a busy station. There is no gain from avoiding reversal at Bradford Interchange.

 

[Bantamzen]

Fair enough, except that there would be 4 more trains per hour on the already busy stretch of line between Shipley and Leeds. On top of that, the Bradford FS - Leeds service are planned to stop at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge in a couple of years' time. If the current shuttle service were to be subsumed into the rerouted Cader Valleys, this WILL mean longer journeys. AND you'd probably need passing loops or four-tracking to maintain the service. I'm struggling to see any winners from this.

To be honest, 4 tracking the stretch between Shipley & Leeds wouldn't be a bad idea. Currently the peak services on the Airedale are often close to bursting, so adding extra capacity (as well as passing opportunities) could bring some benefits to the line. It might have even encouraged East Coast (or whomever held the franchise at the time) to extend some more services along towards Bradford & Skipton. So potentially you might have had the possibility of additional capacity on the eastern stretch of the Airedale, as well as linking the various valleys without having to route via Leeds, which I'm sure would have been quite popular in the summer months at least.

I always think back to how Dr Beeching saw routes such as the Airedale & Wharfedale lines as being easily replaceable with road traffic. I wonder what impact places like Shipley & Guiseley would have felt if these lines had gone to rack & ruin? If you've ever travelled by road through either at peak times you'll know what I mean, they are horrendous even with decent rail services. So perhaps having a cross Bradford link might have helped reduce traffic in the region even more by linking places in the Calder to Shipley / Guiseley / Keighley / Skipton? There is certainly plenty of traffic each day on the Shipley-Airedale Road heading north to southwest around Bradford and vise versa, so there might have been some serious merit in the scheme.

 

[IanD]

Supporters of the idea seem to be getting hung up on the current need to reverse at Bradford Interchange and how journeys would be speeded up by avoiding it. Station layover times at Bradford Interchange are three minutes - it's not as if passengers are sitting on a train going nowhere for ten minutes or more. And even without reversal, it would still need a station layover time of a few minutes because it's such a busy station. There is no gain from avoiding reversal at Bradford Interchange.

Think it has been mentioned a couple of times (not counting your or this mention). Hardly "hung up" - it's just something that should be considered by the people who say that journey times would be extended for passengers from Halifax to Leeds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I always think back to how Dr Beeching saw routes such as the Airedale & Wharfedale lines as being easily replaceable with road traffic. I wonder what impact places like Shipley & Guiseley would have felt if these lines had gone to rack & ruin? If you've ever travelled by road through either at peak times you'll know what I mean, they are horrendous even with decent rail services. So perhaps having a cross Bradford link might have helped reduce traffic in the region even more by linking places in the Calder to Shipley / Guiseley / Keighley / Skipton? There is certainly plenty of traffic each day on the Shipley-Airedale Road heading north to southwest around Bradford and vise versa, so there might have been some serious merit in the scheme.

You're right about the traffic in the area certainly- and the present Airedale/Wharfedale 'triangle' of lines are a great example of how where suburban lines that survived post-Beeching, they've often grown in the past 20-or-so years and are vital to the economy of the region. If the Otley line had survived the destruction of the post-war years we certainly wouldn't get rid of it now, and the same could possibly be said for the Halifax-Keighley 'arm' of the Queensbury lines, the Holmfirth branch, and the Taunton-Barnstaple route to name but a few.

Likewise, if 'Bradford Crossrail' had been built in the 1920s or the 1950s, no-one would think of reverting to the current situation. Unfortunately though, I think it's time has gone, at least in the lifetimes of most or all of the members of this forum!

 

[Bantamzen]

You're right about the traffic in the area certainly- and the present Airedale/Wharfedale 'triangle' of lines are a great example of how where suburban lines that survived post-Beeching, they've often grown in the past 20-or-so years and are vital to the economy of the region. If the Otley line had survived the destruction of the post-war years we certainly wouldn't get rid of it now, and the same could possibly be said for the Halifax-Keighley 'arm' of the Queensbury lines, the Holmfirth branch, and the Taunton-Barnstaple route to name but a few.

Likewise, if 'Bradford Crossrail' had been built in the 1920s or the 1950s, no-one would think of reverting to the current situation. Unfortunately though, I think it's time has gone, at least in the lifetimes of most or all of the members of this forum!

Sadly you are right, the time has pretty much gone now so another solution is needed to link the two terminals in Bradford. If/when the Westfield centre finally gets built, I suspect the traffic coming into Forster Square will increase as a result (despite what some people claim in the local paper comments section), as will, to a lesser degree, the traffic up the Calder Valley into the Interchange.

The current circular free bus just is not useful / quick enough from FS to the Interchange, and even on the shorter return trip it is rarely used by train users who seem to prefer to walk. Perhaps as part of a future franchise, a service subsidised in part by the ToC might be in order for use by passenegrs & shoppers alike, making it free only on presentation of a valid ticket? Rather than taking the long route around the campus as it does (and then often used as a free shuttle by residents nearby), it could run a shorter route between the terminals stopping only at key shopping / leasure points in the city.

(Oh the way boooooo to your avatar!!! )

 

[MarkyT]

... another solution is needed to link the two terminals in Bradford. If/when the Westfield centre finally gets built, I suspect the traffic coming into Forster Square will increase as a result (despite what some people claim in the local paper comments section), as will, to a lesser degree, the traffic up the Calder Valley into the Interchange.

The current circular free bus just is not useful / quick enough from FS to the Interchange, and even on the shorter return trip it is rarely used by train users who seem to prefer to walk.

The problem is the distance between the stations is less than half a mile, and walking time between the concourses is thus probably only about 10 minutes maximum if you know the way. I don't know what the bus frequency is, nor the travel time but I am sure that more often than not walking is significantly quicker than waiting for a bus.

Stations on both lines have moved further away from each other with first Exchange being replaced by Interchange, then Forster Square being truncated. It looks like the original concourses were only around 250 metres apart although I don't know whether the old street pattern provided a 'line of sight' route between them, however a useful walking interchange was degraded when these changes took place. My idea to move the Shipley terminal closer to Interchange under the Broadway shopping development re-establishes the closer linkage and improves its quality by segregating from traffic.

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

 

[quantinghome]

You don't need to transfer all the Calder Valley trains via Shipley. Just switch (say) two over to give a through service Shipley-Halifax and beyond. Offset partly by transferring the Leeds-Morecambe/S&C trains via New Pudsey to give there and Bradford through services.

I think this would just complicate matters for no benefit. You'd need a turnback facility at the proposed new Bradford central station if some of the Calder Valleys are still to go via Pudsey. Depending on the option selected, the through services would either (1) end up slower if they needed to stop at the new Airedale stations, or (2) if they are to be additional to these services, would require major capacity improvements between Shipley and Leeds to enable the service to run.

Running Morecambe and S&C through Bradford to Shipley would extend journey times by 20 minutes. These services are already pretty slow.

Bradford Crossrail looks obvious on a map - connecting two close-by city centre stations. However, the more I look at what services could run the more I am convinced that it's not worth it. It's certainly no benefit to people who actually live in Bradford.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

All you'd need is six platforms, two of which for termainating services and the other four for through services of which one platform could be allocated to GC and could run northbound to Shipley then down to Leeds (Whitehall Curve) when the line between Bradford and Wakefield is closed because of engineering works.

 

[NI 271]

I remember years ago the main Huddersfield to Halifax bus route had hourly extensions to Keighley via Denholme and to Bradford via Thornton, this was in Yorkshire Rider days though.

I used to drive those. Happy times!

 

[47802]

Was brought up 4 miles from Bradford city centre and left to join the RAF back in 1984. I visit my family up there once a year and have seen the place go downhill ever since ( not that it was ever anything great mind)
Best bet would be to flatten the whole place and start again, it is so run down it is shocking. It must be the worst place in West Yorkshire and I pity anyone unfortunate enough to be born there these days.

I think Dewsbury is probably worse than Bradford, the centre was never great now its dire, even Mcdonalds have closed in Dewsbury and who's ever heard of a Mcdonalds closing.

I see Bradford and Dewsbury as part of Leeds surburbia as Town Centre's they are redundant and irrelavent.

 

[yorksrob]

City centres and the councils who control them need to fight back by providing attractive, easy places for those people who have spending power to use it, but most just lack the vision and courage to do that. Where car access is made difficult and parking expensive, you're never going to reverse the trend to out of town shopping and as long as councils continue to hate cars, town and city centres will decline.

Ah well, Leeds has already fought back by providing the (quite impressive for a shopping precinct) Trinity Centre. I suspect that it is this that the White Rose centre is probably trying to fight back against. Personally I think the White Rose has a bit of the mark of suburbia (not in a Sir John Betjamin, Metroland sort of way either) so isn't ever going to be as hip as the centre of Leeds.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think Dewsbury is probably worse than Bradford, the centre was never great now its dire, even Mcdonalds have closed in Dewsbury and who's ever heard of a Mcdonalds closing.

I see Bradford and Dewsbury as part of Leeds surburbia as Town Centre's they are redundant and irrelavent.

Whilst it may currently be true that Bradford might be seen by some as a suburb of Leeds, Bradford does have the potential to stand out on it's own. Sure, it's never going to compete with Leeds as a retail centre alone, although if the Westfield development goes ahead it will certainly attract a lot of custom from the South & West of Bradford where direct routes to Leeds are sparse, as well as along the Aire Valley where the ever increasing numbers crushing onto Leeds services might encourage folk to divert at least sometimes to Bradford. And if the ambitious plans being drawn up for Bradford's empty Odeon building come to anything, Bradford might also have a bit more cultural attraction as well (the Alhambra theatre is already very popular & attracts many big shows).

So despite the best attempts of some to kill the city centre dead, there is still some hope. At the moment the place is bereft of many high street retailers that are common elsewhere, but it seems many of these are attracted by the prospect of the new shopping centre. If everything does fall into place then I would expect to see rises in passenger numbers travelling into Forster Square, which will be literally a minute walk from the station to the centre. And maybe in the longer term more passengers will travel up the Calder Valley too, although I doubt the numbers will be as substantial (unless the Low Moor station gets the go ahead & has a decent car park available).

 

[HowardGWR]

Ah well, Leeds has already fought back by providing the (quite impressive for a shopping precinct) Trinity Centre. I suspect that it is this that the White Rose centre is probably trying to fight back against. Personally I think the White Rose has a bit of the mark of suburbia (not in a Sir John Betjamin, Metroland sort of way either) so isn't ever going to be as hip as the centre of Leeds.

I see Trinity itself recommends a nearby car park (Boar Lane) which is £2.80 per hour. So petrol heads need to think again clearly before they make their transport choice!

 

[MarkyT]

In the age of the internet, the future of retail is a great unknown in the UK and other highly consumerist societies. Major supermarkets tried to steamroller everyone into driving out to huge edge-city megastores in the 1980s and 90s to buy groceries, only to discover later there was a core of customers they would never persuade. Their policy of closing older smaller traditional high street branches was soon thrown into reverse with a raft of new local store openings. Now the non-food 'high street' being threatened by online sales is often confusingly considered by the media to include the big box retailers at the suburban fringe. I think this may be an opportunity for those companies to re-establish a greater town centre presence too, opening new smaller stores that act more as showrooms where products can be inspected and compared before home delivery is arranged via modern efficient methods, something the online-only sector cannot provide. There is an argument in retail that having a customer visit by car is much preferable to them walking in from the street because their impulse buying potential is no longer limited by their bag carrying capacity. I think that whilst that will continue to apply to an extent with food (and may be a big factor in the purported level of waste in that sector), it is now in an age of austerity, and with an increasingly networked and smartphone equipped future becoming less important a factor in purchasing decisions for other items, and always has been for those larger items such as TVs and furniture. In any case the impulse to buy a toaster and cofeemaker at the same time can just as easily be met at one of my town centre showrooms where delivery of the whole package can be arranged together. The only concern is whether such transactions would be covered by conventional sale of goods or distance selling regulations.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Whilst it may currently be true that Bradford might be seen by some as a suburb of Leeds, Bradford does have the potential to stand out on it's own. Sure, it's never going to compete with Leeds as a retail centre alone, although if the Westfield development goes ahead it will certainly attract a lot of custom from the South & West of Bradford where direct routes to Leeds are sparse, as well as along the Aire Valley where the ever increasing numbers crushing onto Leeds services might encourage folk to divert at least sometimes to Bradford. And if the ambitious plans being drawn up for Bradford's empty Odeon building come to anything, Bradford might also have a bit more cultural attraction as well (the Alhambra theatre is already very popular & attracts many big shows).

So despite the best attempts of some to kill the city centre dead, there is still some hope. At the moment the place is bereft of many high street retailers that are common elsewhere, but it seems many of these are attracted by the prospect of the new shopping centre. If everything does fall into place then I would expect to see rises in passenger numbers travelling into Forster Square, which will be literally a minute walk from the station to the centre. And maybe in the longer term more passengers will travel up the Calder Valley too, although I doubt the numbers will be as substantial (unless the Low Moor station gets the go ahead & has a decent car park available).

So passenger numbers at Interchange are not going to be boosted by the Northern Hub planned service 2tph "high quality" service to Manchester, minimum journey time 50mins? Or the extensions of services to Manchester Airport (1tph) and Liverpool (1tph), but by building a new local station? Okay, I'll believe the Northern Hub plans when they actually happen, but these are the types of train services I believe could help attract the type of investment that Bradford needs. It is, whatever its reputation, the UK's 6th largest city.

Although some of these are as much "pie in the sky" as a cross-Bradford link, my thoughts of rail services that would help Bradford attract investment are:
1) Decent regional connections. The Northern Hub plans would be a good start. But add direct services to other northern towns, Newcastle, Hull, Sheffield.
2) A regular London service. Perhaps even Cross Country links to the Midlands and South.
3) A decent station for the above services. This would have to be Interchange as the only possible station for some of the above routes, plus it has 10s of millions bus passengers. Instead of the 70s thinking of sending pedestrians underground, I'd like to see a platform level concourse between bus and train stations.
4) If a cross-Bradford link is required, how about a tram link? A train-tram service from Interchange->City Centre->Forster Sq->Leeds-Bradford Airport perhaps?
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You don't need to transfer all the Calder Valley trains via Shipley. Just switch (say) two over to give a through service Shipley-Halifax and beyond.

That's very magnaminous of you, only sending two out of the three Calder Valley services on a wild goose chase through Airedale. Have you plotted your route on a map and seen how ridiculous it is? Here's at least one resounding NO from a frequent Calder Valley to Leeds traveller.

The Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield service is a bit of a joke-if it has any purpose it is to provide a Bradford-Huddersfield and intermediate points link (even though the buses are arguably better). Given that there are approx 6 trains an hour between Leeds and Bradford you could save money by taking this off between Leeds and Bradford (5 trains/hour would be more than adequate) and extend a Skipton -Bradford service to retain the Bradford-Huddersfield link but of course now making this direct from Bradford-Skipton intermediate points.

Joke it may be, but according to at least one poster on the Todmorden Curve thread, the Halifax->Bradford->Leeds service may be strengthened to 5tph from 2016, certainly not reduced, with the extra train not running along the Calder Valley.

 

[Grumpy]

Interchange as the only possible station for some of the above routes, plus it has 10s of millions bus passengers. .

No it doesn't. According to Metro's stats it doesn't even have 10 million
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That's very magnaminous of you, only sending two out of the three Calder Valley services on a wild goose chase through Airedale. Have you plotted your route on a map and seen how ridiculous it is? Here's at least one resounding NO from a frequent Calder Valley to Leeds traveller.

What possible difference should it make to Calder Valley to Leeds travellers which route is used if the journey times are similar? Airedale may be longer but it is better laid out and allows higher speeds.
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Joke it may be, but according to at least one poster on the Todmorden Curve thread, the Halifax->Bradford->Leeds service may be strengthened to 5tph from 2016, certainly not reduced, with the extra train not running along the Calder Valley.

If you re-read my post you will see I was referring to the Bradford-Huddersfield service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Those are powerful points. I really think Bradford councillors and the Westfield investors need to see the value of a rail connection that finishes under their shops. Nottingham Victoria could have been (still could be?) the same.

I originally discounted this but on re-reading I think you're right. I think several of us focussed on the benefit of keeping the railway next to the buses at the Interchange, which is no doubt a good thing, but missed the point that the Interchange is now in the wrong place. The Royal Mail building sits at the future centre of Bradford retail ie Westfield South and the Valley Road retail parks North. People coming into Bradford by bus need to get access to this area-the present Interchange is too far South.

So yes, lets have a new central rail station under the shops and a relocated bus station to the side.

 

[quantinghome]

What possible difference should it make to Calder Valley to Leeds travellers which route is used if the journey times are similar? Airedale may be longer but it is better laid out and allows higher speeds.

Consider what would happen given the two new stations planned for the Airedale line, due to be served by the current Bradford FS - Leeds trains. There are two options:

(1) The Calder Valleys are additional to the existing service. This will congest an already busy route which would then need four-tracking or passing loops to work (so much for the crossrail plan being inexpensive).

(2) If they are not additional, and take over the Bradford FS - Leeds service, they will certainly be slower than current services due to the additional stops.

This highlights the major difficulties with Bradford crossrail. Firstly it would require major work elsewhere, not just the centre of Bradford. Secondly, it would only actually benefit journeys passing through Bradford between a limited number of towns e.g. Ilkley to Halifax whilst disbenefitting other journeys to the main economic centre (Leeds) either through slower journeys or diverting trains away from Leeds. I challenge anyone to demonstrate that the number of passengers benefitting from the scheme would be greater than the number disbenefitted.

 

[Bantamzen]

So passenger numbers at Interchange are not going to be boosted by the Northern Hub planned service 2tph "high quality" service to Manchester, minimum journey time 50mins? Or the extensions of services to Manchester Airport (1tph) and Liverpool (1tph), but by building a new local station? Okay, I'll believe the Northern Hub plans when they actually happen, but these are the types of train services I believe could help attract the type of investment that Bradford needs. It is, whatever its reputation, the UK's 6th largest city.

Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear on my previous comment. I was suggesting that the new shopping centre would not attract as much additional traffic along the Calder Valley as it would along the Airedale. Obviously demand along the Calder is increasing, and there certainly is a strong argument for additional services along it, I just don't think that the Westfield development will be as big a draw the further south west you go down the valley, especially as Manchester might only be a slighter longer hop than Bradford for places like Hebden Bridge & Todmorden.

Although some of these are as much "pie in the sky" as a cross-Bradford link, my thoughts of rail services that would help Bradford attract investment are:
1) Decent regional connections. The Northern Hub plans would be a good start. But add direct services to other northern towns, Newcastle, Hull, Sheffield.
2) A regular London service. Perhaps even Cross Country links to the Midlands and South.
3) A decent station for the above services. This would have to be Interchange as the only possible station for some of the above routes, plus it has 10s of millions bus passengers. Instead of the 70s thinking of sending pedestrians underground, I'd like to see a platform level concourse between bus and train stations.
4) If a cross-Bradford link is required, how about a tram link? A train-tram service from Interchange->City Centre->Forster Sq->Leeds-Bradford Airport perhaps

1 & 2) This is certainly not pie in the sky, the must surely be some scope for new routes out of the Interchange. Maybe in the medium term a Bradford - Manchester Airport or Chester (1ph?) route might be viable, and if this proves to be successful then look at other further destinations. I don't think that there would be sufficient demand for regular routes to places like Birmingham or other Midlands destinations to justify one an hour, but perhaps every 2-3 hours might work if the paths could be found. And there are already 4 trains per day to London, so if this additional capacity is used up maybe other operators (East Midlands maybe?) might be taking a closer look. With the electrification of the Leeds-York route however, services to the North East might be better served from Forster Square allowing the use of EMUs throughout.

3) I suppose a platform / bus stand level crossing could be installed, but the Interchange is heavily used and the road section between the two is very busy so some sort of control measures might be required. You don't want the contents of a busy train suddenly spilling out onto the access road in front of several buses trying to depart the Interchange.

4) As much as I'd love to see this, frankly there is more chance of the cross city link than this. LBA's rather lofty position makes it so very tricky in getting any kind of rail service even close. Getting a tram/train service away from Bradford would be easy enough, you'd just use the existing corridor alongside Canal Road into Shipley. But how would you then get it from there to the Airport? Using street running isn't really viable as all the roads around Guiseley & Yeadon that you would have to utilise are heavily used & often congested. So running times would be slow to painful, as they are on the only bus services currently running to the Airport so it really wouldn't be attractive to passengers.

The other option would be to bore through to build an underground terminus similar to that at Heathrow. You could either use the existing branch from Shipley through Baildon & towards Guiseley, but in order to justify such expense you would have to ensure that the route served both Guiseley & Yeadon with stations at fairly central points in both towns & you would certainly have to double the existing single track on this branch. Or you could run the service along the line east of Shipley towards Apperley Bridge, then swing it north tunnelling towards Rawdon, Yeadon & the Airport.

But either way, the cost would be huge & you would have to build a similar line coming from Leeds so the cost would be phenomenal. Sure, the long term benefits would be great, especially if LBA were able to extend the runway & terminal to accommodate larger long distance flights, but frankly the chances of all three of these coming together at the same time are as close to zero as you could ever get.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What possible difference should it make to Calder Valley to Leeds travellers which route is used if the journey times are similar? Airedale may be longer but it is better laid out and allows higher speeds.

May I enquire if that particular line suggestion has ever featured in any official local authority future transport policy documentation ?

 

[billio]

Sure, the long term benefits would be great, especially if LBA were able to extend the runway & terminal to accommodate larger long distance flights, but frankly the chances of all three of these coming together at the same time are as close to zero as you could ever get.

LBA is an airport in the wrong place. It would be far better in the long-term to put money into an airfield next to existing railways, the most obvious being at Church Fenton, now that it's no longer required by the RAF. There are excellent existing connections to most parts of Yorkshire, the North East Midlands and the North East, including in the future, HS2.

There also major trunk roads, the M1, A1(M) and the A64 in close proximity.

The inhabitants of Church Fenton are up in arms about the impact of a long HS2 viaduct running through the village, the area might as well be clobbered by an international airport as well.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear on my previous comment. I was suggesting that the new shopping centre would not attract as much additional traffic along the Calder Valley as it would along the Airedale. Obviously demand along the Calder is increasing, and there certainly is a strong argument for additional services along it, I just don't think that the Westfield development will be as big a draw the further south west you go down the valley, especially as Manchester might only be a slighter longer hop than Bradford for places like Hebden Bridge & Todmorden.

With the residents of Hebden Bridge up in arms about plans for the establishment of a Sainsbury's Local in the town, I wouldn't expect any increase in traffic from the Upper Valley because Bradford gets a new shopping centre.

1 & 2) This is certainly not pie in the sky, the must surely be some scope for new routes out of the Interchange. Maybe in the medium term a Bradford - Manchester Airport or Chester (1ph?) route might be viable, and if this proves to be successful then look at other further destinations. I don't think that there would be sufficient demand for regular routes to places like Birmingham or other Midlands destinations to justify one an hour, but perhaps every 2-3 hours might work if the paths could be found. And there are already 4 trains per day to London, so if this additional capacity is used up maybe other operators (East Midlands maybe?) might be taking a closer look. With the electrification of the Leeds-York route however, services to the North East might be better served from Forster Square allowing the use of EMUs throughout.

I think we are misunderstanding each other. Where Bradford is losing out compared with other is lack of incoming investment, because of the poor reputation it has. I established a Yorkshire office for my employers and while Bradford had several advantages (staff availabilty, cheapness) it lost out to Leeds because of its poor reputation amongst our clients (large businesses) in Yorkshire and the North East, less so because of the management view from London (although the lack of decent transport links to London was a large negative). My proposals were based on that experience and solutions which have been adapted in places like Manchester, Birminham, Sheffield etc.

The 50min 2tph "high quality" service to Manchester and through trains to Liverpool and Manchester Airport were certainly reported in the Upper Valley in 2010 as part of the plans for the Calder Valley line. While this may end up being a Chester service, I don't think this would be much use to Bradford.

If you want to attract investment from London-based businesses then a fast clockface train service or a good link from an airport is required (preferably both) Bradford shockingly for a city its size has neither. The current GCR services and proposals like Alliance Rail's may be welcome, but are unlikely to be attractive enough to attract investment. What would satisfy this this is a more pie-in-the sky 1tph extension of the Leeds service. Perhaps electrify Leeds to Interchange to allow it to run there along with regional services from the NE.

3) I suppose a platform / bus stand level crossing could be installed, but the Interchange is heavily used and the road section between the two is very busy so some sort of control measures might be required. You don't want the contents of a busy train suddenly spilling out onto the access road in front of several buses trying to depart the Interchange.

My proposal was far more pie in the sky than that. The present design of Interchange reminds me so much of 70s Birmingham, with people sent underground at the expense of vehicles. Its even more shocking in a public transport interchange. Do as Birmingham is now successfully doing, let the pedestrians enjoy natural access and reroute the road or send it underground.

4) As much as I'd love to see this, frankly there is more chance of the cross city link than this. LBA's rather lofty position makes it so very tricky in getting any kind of rail service even close. Getting a tram/train service away from Bradford would be easy enough, you'd just use the existing corridor alongside Canal Road into Shipley. But how would you then get it from there to the Airport? Using street running isn't really viable as all the roads around Guiseley & Yeadon that you would have to utilise are heavily used & often congested. So running times would be slow to painful, as they are on the only bus services currently running to the Airport so it really wouldn't be attractive to passengers.

The other option would be to bore through to build an underground terminus similar to that at Heathrow. You could either use the existing branch from Shipley through Baildon & towards Guiseley, but in order to justify such expense you would have to ensure that the route served both Guiseley & Yeadon with stations at fairly central points in both towns & you would certainly have to double the existing single track on this branch. Or you could run the service along the line east of Shipley towards Apperley Bridge, then swing it north tunnelling towards Rawdon, Yeadon & the Airport.

But either way, the cost would be huge & you would have to build a similar line coming from Leeds so the cost would be phenomenal. Sure, the long term benefits would be great, especially if LBA were able to extend the runway & terminal to accommodate larger long distance flights, but frankly the chances of all three of these coming together at the same time are as close to zero as you could ever get.

Yes I know an airport link is pure pie-in-the-sky. But tram services have undoubtably raised the reputation of Manchester and Sheffield and an Airport service would help with the London link if regular trains are not forthcoming, although you would then also need far more flights. Surely a light rail cross Bradford crossing would be cheaper than heavy rail? I'm sure that there would be a better business case for a Bradford tram system than a heavy rail link to send Calder Valley services off to Airedale, but provide few benefits to Bradford itself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

May I enquire if that particular line suggestion has ever featured in any official local authority future transport policy documentation ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What possible difference should it make to Calder Valley to Leeds travellers which route is used if the journey times are similar? Airedale may be longer but it is better laid out and allows higher speeds.

Because

- while the Airedale route is undoubtably in a better state than the Calder Valley at the current time, plans seem to be afoot on Bradford to Manchester line speed improvements (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10361757.Railway_journey_times_are_debated/)(Railforums) and I'd think shorter journey times on the Leeds to Bradford Interchange line to have a far stronger business case than any cross Bradford link.
- if Calder Valley speed improvements don't happen, do you really think through Leeds passengers will appreciate spending £100ms just to get a different view through their windows on a journey into Leeds with no improved journey time? I certainly wouldn't.
- passengers care when existing well established journey patterns are withdrawn. e.g. see my posts in the Todmorden Curve thread about protests about the withdrawal of direct services between Smithy Bridge, Littleborough and Walsden and Bradford and Halifax. Yes I know the railway have given them a wonderful opportunity to visit Brighouse and Dewsbury instead. :roll: Traffic between Calder Valley and Bramley and Pudsey may be light, but regular commuters will not be pleased being told to find a job in Shipley instead.

 

[Grumpy]

Because

- while the Airedale route is undoubtably in a better state than the Calder Valley at the current time, plans seem to be afoot on Bradford to Manchester line speed improvements (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10361757.Railway_journey_times_are_debated/)(Railforums) and I'd think shorter journey times on the Leeds to Bradford Interchange line to have a far stronger business case than any cross Bradford link.
- if Calder Valley speed improvements don't happen, do you really think through Leeds passengers will appreciate spending £100ms just to get a different view through their windows on a journey into Leeds with no improved journey time? I certainly wouldn't.
- passengers care when existing well established journey patterns are withdrawn. e.g. see my posts in the Todmorden Curve thread about protests about the withdrawal of direct services between Smithy Bridge, Littleborough and Walsden and Bradford and Halifax. Yes I know the railway have given them a wonderful opportunity to visit Brighouse and Dewsbury instead. :roll: Traffic between Calder Valley and Bramley and Pudsey may be light, but regular commuters will not be pleased being told to find a job in Shipley instead.

The newspaper reference is to improving journeys between Bradford and Manchester. There is no reference to any planned journey time reductions between Interchange and Leeds, and this was not discussed by the Committee.

If you're running 4 (you suggest this is to be 5) trains/hour from Halifax to Leeds, diverting one or two via Shipley would still leave plenty of choice for passengers wanting to go via Pudsey
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Consider what would happen given the two new stations planned for the Airedale line, due to be served by the current Bradford FS - Leeds trains. There are two options:

(1) The Calder Valleys are additional to the existing service. This will congest an already busy route which would then need four-tracking or passing loops to work (so much for the crossrail plan being inexpensive).

(2) If they are not additional, and take over the Bradford FS - Leeds service, they will certainly be slower than current services due to the additional stops.

.

If we assumed that the Calder Valleys were additional I cant see how it would necessarily need 4 tracking/passing loops. The basic service is 2 Wharfedale, 2 Bradford, 2 Skipton electrics and approx. 1 diesel from the Hellifield direction. That's 7 trains/hour which is hardly Thameslink. Yes there's the odd freight but most of the freight paths aren't used. I accept there are some additional services in the peak, but again it's nothing extraordinary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This highlights the major difficulties with Bradford crossrail. Firstly it would require major work elsewhere, not just the centre of Bradford. Secondly, it would only actually benefit journeys passing through Bradford between a limited number of towns e.g. Ilkley to Halifax whilst disbenefitting other journeys to the main economic centre (Leeds) either through slower journeys or diverting trains away from Leeds. I challenge anyone to demonstrate that the number of passengers benefitting from the scheme would be greater than the number disbenefitted.

Well as stated above I cant see how it would require major work elsewhere. If you had one central station in Bradford then you would redesign the local services from scratch and would still have frequent fast services from Bradford and Calderdale to Leeds. If the current base is 2 Forster Square-Leeds and 4 Interchange (Hebdenbridger says is to be 5) then you should be able to rejig those to best effect.

I cant the benefit demonstration you request. My experiences are of someone living in Wharfedale who makes irregular journeys to Calderdale, sometimes walking between the stations. As others on here have commented when you drive through Bradford on the Shipley Airedale road there does seem to be an awful lot of cars passing through so we believe there is some potential.

There are some suggestions above that a cross link doesn't benefit the citizens of Bradford and therefore that's a reason not to proceed. Which seems nuts to me. Similarly that Bradford's real need is better services to more destinations, which may be true, but is a separate issue and not mutually exclusive. In any case I would have thought Grand Central or whoever might like connecting passengers from Airedale or Wharfedale being delivered to adjoining platforms.

 

[Waverley125]

This again. Well, my two cents.

It is a worthwhile project, but only as part of a wider scheme of improvements to the network in Greater Leeds

This would include (but not be limited to)

'The Proposal'

1. Re-Quadrupling the line between Leeds & Shipley, with the reintroduction of stations at Armley Canal Road, Kirkstall Abbey, Calverley & Rodley and Idle (in addition to Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge)

2. The Re-opening of Horbury Bridge - Low Moor, giving Bradford a line to Wakefield avoiding Leeds

3. The re-opening of the Horbury West Curve (creating a direct Bradford-Sheffield route avoiding Barnsley).

4. The (re)opening of stations on the Bradford-Leeds via New Pudsey line. These being Laisterdyke, Armley Moor and New Wortley.

5. A New 6 platform station in Bradford City Centre, with 4 through platforms and 2 south-facing bay platforms.

6. Electrification of:

6a: the Caldervale line between Leeds, Manchester Victoria & Preston
6b: the Mirfield - Halifax / Sowerby Bridge line
6c: the lines slated for re-opening above
6d: the Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley line

Benefits of the 'the Proposal'

1. Direct through services to Bradford from Sheffield, with potential for services to London via Barnsley all operating on the MML wires.

2. 'Cross City' services from Wakefield Kirkgate & Huddersfield to Ilkley & Skipton

3. Journey time savings on Caldervale through avoidal of reversing at Bradford. It is 18 minutes Leeds-Bradford FS calling Shipley only, the same time as Leeds-Interchange. Avoiding reversal times would allow quicker journeys from the Caldervale into Leeds.

4. More intense Leeds-Bradford services serving more stations (separation of regional & local trains onto A&W slows & Pudsey line)

5. Potential for further inter-regional passenger services to the NW through Bradford (e.g. from Nottingham, avoiding need for reversal at Leeds)

6. Alleviating of capacity constraints at Leeds station throat by diverting freight crossing it from SE to NW

7. Reduce passenger congestion at Leeds by offering bypass routes (e.g. to join the train to London at Wakefield)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By means of a comparison, what is now known as Manchester Piccadilly (the former Manchester London Road) and Manchester Victoria have been without a connection and about 170 years have elapsed so far. The proposed Ordsall Chord connection will utilise existing rail infrastructure with a new chord infill, so no disruption to the city-centre will occur.

 

[John S2]

By means of a comparison, what is now known as Manchester Piccadilly (the former Manchester London Road) and Manchester Victoria have been without a connection and about 170 years have elapsed so far. The proposed Ordsall Chord connection will utilise existing rail infrastructure with a new chord infill, so no disruption to the city-centre will occur.

There is very little similarity between Manchester and Bradford. For example, there are plenty of activities available in Manchester in the evenings for people to engage in. Bradford is dead.
This difference is relevant to the rail discussion. Few people travel into Bradford centre by choice, which is why the main benefits of joining the South Bradford lines with the North Bradford lines are for people in surrounding areas who wish to make journeys such as Shipley-Halifax.