Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[HowardGWR]

Bradford dichotomy

This proposed development was discussed recently when we discussed a new station at the WRSC (White Rose Shopping Centre).

This article
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...._unveils_two_more_stores_for_Broadway/?ref=ar

displays the dichotomy that faces Bradford. It needs the southern station to be closer in to Westfield surely or joined through to Forster Sq.? Not only that but the out of town development needs to be reversed?

In the same paper they give good news about Low Moor but it seems to me that a big planning mistake is likely to be made. I admit I am a stranger but sometimes an outsider sees these things. I consider developments like WRSC to be a planning debacle.

 

[JohnB57]

Bradford dichotomy

This proposed development was discussed recently when we discussed a new station at the WRSC (White Rose Shopping Centre).

This article
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...._unveils_two_more_stores_for_Broadway/?ref=ar

displays the dichotomy that faces Bradford. It needs the southern station to be closer in to Westfield surely or joined through to Forster Sq.? Not only that but the out of town development needs to be reversed?

In the same paper they give good news about Low Moor but it seems to me that a big planning mistake is likely to be made. I admit I am a stranger but sometimes an outsider sees these things. I consider developments like WRSC to be a planning debacle.

Developments such as the White Rose and Meadowhall simply provide what the public wants - a comprehensive, easy, accessible retail experience. I'm not sure how they can be described as a "planning debacle" when they are used by so many people.

City centres and the councils who control them need to fight back by providing attractive, easy places for those people who have spending power to use it, but most just lack the vision and courage to do that. Where car access is made difficult and parking expensive, you're never going to reverse the trend to out of town shopping and as long as councils continue to hate cars, town and city centres will decline.

 

[tbtc]

Developments such as the White Rose and Meadowhall simply provide what the public wants - a comprehensive, easy, accessible retail experience. I'm not sure how they can be described as a "planning debacle" when they are used by so many people.

City centres and the councils who control them need to fight back by providing attractive, easy places for those people who have spending power to use it, but most just lack the vision and courage to do that. Where car access is made difficult and parking expensive, you're never going to reverse the trend to out of town shopping and as long as councils continue to hate cars, town and city centres will decline.

Meadowhall has a four platform train station (as well as trams, though the trams only came four years after it was built).

Whilst the Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester line runs pretty much behind the White Rose centre, it was built without a train station - its probably too much hassle to build one now (given the way that land has been built upon) - that's the planning issue I'd highlight.

 

[47802]

I sometimes think the best thing to do with Bradford city centre would be to turn into a park like some of the current bomb site area that is meant to become the new shopping centre.

As a shopping centre its close proximity to Leeds and for that matter other towns such as Halifax is a problem in many respects. I live only 5 miles from Bradford and have done for most of my life, its the nearest city and station to where I live but the number of times I have been shopping in Bradford I can count on one hand, everybody from my family will go to Leeds or the white rose. Similarly for most long distance train journeys it makes more sense to go to Leeds.

Many years ago the Bus Service from my village was better to Bradford than Leeds but now the Bradford service is significantly reduced and the Leeds service improved which no doubt reflects the increasing dominance of Leeds.

Clearly it would make sense to link the stations but given this Bradford we are talking about it aint going to happen, its also crazy that a rail station wasn't built at the white rose when the line is so near.

 

[JohnB57]

Meadowhall has a four platform train station (as well as trams, though the trams only came four years after it was built).

Whilst the Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester line runs pretty much behind the White Rose centre, it was built without a train station - its probably too much hassle to build one now (given the way that land has been built upon) - that's the planning issue I'd highlight.

I couldn't agree more. Meadowhall, from where I've just returned, is about as sorted a development as you find anywhere, love it or hate it. My daughter moves there on Thursday from her role at the White Rose and public transport access was one of the reasons she looked there for a position.

It doesn't alter the fact that if town centres were made similarly user-friendly by integrating the various modes as at Meadowhall, they might begin to reverse the slide.

 

[AndyHudds]

The White Rose Centre doesn't need its own station, well not a specifically built one, it has one close by, Cottingley. Why don't they market Cottingley as a station for White Rose and run shuttle buses the short distance to the centre form the station? Its not rocket science. They could even rename the station Cottingley White Rose. Although the current service pattern is pretty poor with only 2 services and hour.

 

[tbtc]

The White Rose Centre doesn't need its own station, well not a specifically built one, it has one close by, Cottingley. Why don't they market Cottingley as a station for White Rose and run shuttle buses the short distance to the centre form the station? Its not rocket science. They could even rename the station Cottingley White Rose. Although the current service pattern is pretty poor with only 2 services and hour.

When the White Rose centre was opened in the late '90s, they should have closed Cottingley and built a four platform station at the White Rose Centre.

It's too late now though - especially with Google Maps quoting a twenty minute walk from Cottingley to the shopping centre - thats not going to attract anyone

(in the way that Brightside station in Sheffield was closed to accommodate Meadowhall)

 

[YorkshireRider]

The White Rose Centre doesn't need its own station, well not a specifically built one, it has one close by, Cottingley. Why don't they market Cottingley as a station for White Rose and run shuttle buses the short distance to the centre form the station? Its not rocket science. They could even rename the station Cottingley White Rose. Although the current service pattern is pretty poor with only 2 services and hour.

I'm not sure that would be much quicker than using the service bus, WRC has decent bus links from Leeds, Morley, Batley and Dewsbury. The point about service patterns is a good one and might be one reason WRC does not have its own station, giving the Northern services an extra calling point may cause pathing issues with TPE, and you certainly cant have TPE services stopping there.

 

[AndyHudds]

When the White Rose centre was opened in the late '90s, they should have closed Cottingley and built a four platform station at the White Rose Centre.

It's too late now though - especially with Google Maps quoting a twenty minute walk from Cottingley to the shopping centre - thats not going to attract anyone

(in the way that Brightside station in Sheffield was closed to accommodate Meadowhall)

Aye you're probably right but they could try with the shuttle bus, but the lack of a station shouldn't come as a surprise given Metro's track record with new station openings!!

 

[47802]

Aye you're probably right but they could try with the shuttle bus, but the lack of a station shouldn't come as a surprise given Metro's track record with new station openings!!

I think it would be pointless may as well catch the bus directly to Leeds, or directly to such as Dewsbury.

The answer should be a new station at white rose served by at least the local service plus at least one TPX service per hour, pref also a bay platform to provide a shuttle service.

 

[Grumpy]

I think it would be pointless may as well catch the bus directly to Leeds, or directly to such as Dewsbury.

The answer should be a new station at white rose served by at least the local service plus at least one TPX service per hour, pref also a bay platform to provide a shuttle service.

I think you need to stop all the locals to give the frequency to make it attractive, and whatever is needed for TPX to maximise line capacity. I'm not sure line capacity would cope with the bay/shuttle idea although I can see the merit in your idea.

If the Council Planners had any sense they would simply make the developers funding this a condition of permission for the extension. Win/Win all round.

With regard to Howard's earlier post re Bradford, there is currently a pleasant undeveloped green area between the Interchange and Forster Square (well worth the walk on a good day as the view of some of the old buildings is impressive), and a reasonable (ie adequate for the Bradford economy) shopping area just to the west. What the redevelopment will do is take away the pleasant green area, the existing retailers will decamp to the new centre and leave the present shopping centre a boarded up depressed area. The council will brag about new jobs but these will just be existing basic wage jobs shifting a few hundred yards east. And of course the chance to connect the railway will be lost forever.
The owners of the present retail properties will become poorer, Westfield will ship their profits off to Australia and Bradford will continue to be a dump. That's the planning debacle.

 

[Bantamzen]

With regard to Howard's earlier post re Bradford, there is currently a pleasant undeveloped green area between the Interchange and Forster Square (well worth the walk on a good day as the view of some of the old buildings is impressive), and a reasonable (ie adequate for the Bradford economy) shopping area just to the west. What the redevelopment will do is take away the pleasant green area, the existing retailers will decamp to the new centre and leave the present shopping centre a boarded up depressed area. The council will brag about new jobs but these will just be existing basic wage jobs shifting a few hundred yards east. And of course the chance to connect the railway will be lost forever.
The owners of the present retail properties will become poorer, Westfield will ship their profits off to Australia and Bradford will continue to be a dump. That's the planning debacle.

If you don't mind me saying it, but that's a little unfair on Bradford. It wasn't too long ago that this city had a reasonably good, vibrant centre. It was thanks to successive, lacklustre councils that the current situation evolved, but hopefully we are starting to see the end of the debacle with signs that work is imminent on the site (it's worth noting that Westfield do not own the site anymore, but are just contractors to the new owners Meyer Bergman who paid £200M for the project last year).

But it certainly is a missed opportunity. Had the council sat and thought about it, as well as listened to various groups & business leaders in the area, then I'm sure that the site could easily have included a cross city rail link with possibly a new Bradford Exchange station built in. This would not only have benefited Bradford, but would have given West Yorkshire an alternative rail route through it, avoiding the ever more congested Leeds. As has been already mooted , Calder to Airedale (and beyond to the Settle & Carlisle) / Wharfedale routes would have opened up in an instant, and I suppose even the possibility of a direct Calder to Harrogate / York route might have been feasible. I'm sure there would have been plenty of demand for at least some of these routes, travelling as I do from Baildon to Bradford Forster Sq each morning I note that there are a fair few passengers that travel to Halifax & beyond towards Greater Manchester.

However, as things stand the window of opportunity is rapidly snapping shut, as the planning for the new Westfield site is in place & there are contractors on the ground now starting ground clearance work so the build proper probably isn't too far off. Maybe instead both terminals could be expanded slightly to accept more services through them, or terminating at them, with a more joined up bus link between them, rather than the odd one-way free bus which is great travelling from the Interchange > Forster Square (2-3 mins max), but not so good going the other way (up to 10-12 mins).

 

[Tetchytyke]

With regard to Howard's earlier post re Bradford, there is currently a pleasant undeveloped green area between the Interchange and Forster Square...What the redevelopment will do is take away the pleasant green area

The green area is there because Westfield didn't build the shopping centre when they said they would, which is coming on for ten years now. The green area was just a way of dealing with the situation after the old buildings on Broadway were pulled down.

The two stations needed to be linked in the 60s, but at the time it was Exchange that was the dominant station. Forster Square almost closed at that time, with essentially only a skeleton service to Keighley (not Skipton) remaining. British Rail's plans were for one station in Bradford, which would have been a refurbished Exchange, until Metro came along and decided to build the ridiculously oversized Interchange complex.

It isn't possible to link the stations now, that is a simple fact. Both stations have had significant building work take place across the terminal ends of the platforms, linking the stations would need- as a minimum- for the HMRC and Crown Court buildings to be demolished as well as building a viaduct through what will be the Westfield shopping centre. The gradient on that viaduct would be interesting too, as Interchange station is higher up than Forster Square.

Bradford doesn't need the two stations linking up, what it needs is for the disastrous decision to close the L&Y line through Cleckheaton to be reversed. Until that happens- and I doubt that it ever will- Bradford will remain a branch line from Leeds.

 

[Mugby]

With regard to Howard's earlier post re Bradford, there is currently a pleasant undeveloped green area between the Interchange and Forster Square (well worth the walk on a good day as the view of some of the old buildings is impressive), and a reasonable (ie adequate for the Bradford economy) shopping area just to the west. What the redevelopment will do is take away the pleasant green area, the existing retailers will decamp to the new centre and leave the present shopping centre a boarded up depressed area. The council will brag about new jobs but these will just be existing basic wage jobs shifting a few hundred yards east. And of course the chance to connect the railway will be lost forever.
The owners of the present retail properties will become poorer, Westfield will ship their profits off to Australia and Bradford will continue to be a dump. That's the planning debacle.

You are absolutely correct.

I can tell you from being a long term resident of Derby that since Westfield opened here about ten years ago, it has totally killed the rest of the town. All that remains outside of Westfield now is just a sad collection of boarded up shops, betting shops and pound shops. They gave meaningless assurances that the remainder of Derby wouldn't be neglected but they couldn't care less so long as their profits keep rolling in.

The same thing will happen in Bradford and it's a pity because it's a place which I like and I feel sorry for the residents who will see their city become just a shopping centre and nothing else.

With regard to the joining of the two stations, we have to be realistic and face the fact that it will never happen. The best thing would have been for the line into the Interchange to continue under Bridge St. as it used to and for a better interchange to be built on the site of the present 'Urban Garden' but as has been pointed out, the Crown Court building is in the way and when Westfield arrive, the idea can be laid to rest forever!

 

[MarkyT]

Bradford dichotomy

... displays the dichotomy that faces Bradford. It needs the southern station to be closer in to Westfield surely or joined through to Forster Sq.? Not only that but the out of town development needs to be reversed?

A Crossrail scheme for Bradford might be technically possible, but is it neccessary or desirable given a good quality pedestrian link between the two terminals would provide a lot of the user benefit, not least linking the Shipley lines from the north to the bus station. That would be difficult with Forster Square where it is however, but moving the Shipley terminal to the retail development basement could put the two main concourses around 250 metres apart, and easy to link across car parks surrounding the court. Shipley line customers would retain their familiar service patterns, reliability is maintained by keeping services independent, and platform capacity retained or enhanced perhaps to accommodate an airport express in the future. The Shipley line operator could also experience growth if the better central station and its improved interchange opportunities proved popular. The developer would get a nice pedestrian link to the bus station and the connecting pathway can be lined with businesses servicing those in transit.

Another complementary scheme, to provide a northern rail exit towards Leeds from Interchange station, could speed up Manchester-Halifax-Leeds trains by avoiding reversals at Bradford, thus also using less of Interchange's platform capacity. If the remodelled Interchange station, and the line at least from Leeds was electrified, then there might be sufficient capacity released at the station to accommodate more frequent East Coast services extended to the city.

Both ideas are illustrated here: http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

 

[AndyHudds]

I'm not sure that would be much quicker than using the service bus, WRC has decent bus links from Leeds, Morley, Batley and Dewsbury. The point about service patterns is a good one and might be one reason WRC does not have its own station, giving the Northern services an extra calling point may cause pathing issues with TPE, and you certainly cant have TPE services stopping there.

I was thinking more about from Huddersfield to be honest, the buses run from Huddersfield to White Rose but take an eternity, and by train you pass it into Leeds only have to catch the bus back out to the centre!! But I doubt even a shuttle bus would do much in all honesty.

 

[HowardGWR]

Developments such as the White Rose and Meadowhall simply provide what the public wants - a comprehensive, easy, accessible retail experience. I'm not sure how they can be described as a "planning debacle" when they are used by so many people.

City centres and the councils who control them need to fight back by providing attractive, easy places for those people who have spending power to use it, but most just lack the vision and courage to do that. Where car access is made difficult and parking expensive, you're never going to reverse the trend to out of town shopping and as long as councils continue to hate cars, town and city centres will decline.

I've waited for many others to respond before forming a reply. As they are all pleading for sustainable development, I thought I would be emboldened now to try and deal with your points.

WRSC is of course used by many people travelling in cars. That's not what's right with it; that's what's wrong with it. The car traveller, faced with having to pay for parking in city centres, will clearly choose the place where he does not have to pay.

So the local council should have resisted the development at WRSC. If you read the reference I gave, the expansion of WRSC is now being resisted by city centre interests - too late perhaps! The car economy horse has bolted in the Leeds Bradford area. The only saver now is to provide a station at WRSC from where people can stroll under cover into the centre and devise a plan for very frequent public transport access from all over the area.

I don't know enough about the local political areas there, but what we have seen elsewhere is often that the city council is stumped by a surrounding council which promotes OOT shopping centres (and everything else) with free parking to stymie their city neighbours.

It needs a higher level authority capable of strategic decision making that could have prevented some of these developments. It didn't happen.

It's now a long haul back to sustainable development, but it doesn't look as if it is going to happen in Bradford, hope I'm wrong.

 

[IanD]

The only saver now is to provide a station at WRSC from where people can stroll under cover into the centre and devise a plan for very frequent public transport access from all over the area.

Or legislate to require that parking charges be introduced at OOT shopping centres at similar levels to city centre parking.

 

[quantinghome]

Had the council sat and thought about it, as well as listened to various groups & business leaders in the area, then I'm sure that the site could easily have included a cross city rail link with possibly a new Bradford Exchange station built in. This would not only have benefited Bradford, but would have given West Yorkshire an alternative rail route through it, avoiding the ever more congested Leeds. As has been already mooted , Calder to Airedale (and beyond to the Settle & Carlisle) / Wharfedale routes would have opened up in an instant, and I suppose even the possibility of a direct Calder to Harrogate / York route might have been feasible. I'm sure there would have been plenty of demand for at least some of these routes, travelling as I do from Baildon to Bradford Forster Sq each morning I note that there are a fair few passengers that travel to Halifax & beyond towards Greater Manchester.

'A fair few' isn't enough to justify the link though. Even if there were no buildings obstructing the route (and there are), a link would be an expensive undertaking. The new viaduct at Hitchin cost about £60m, and that was pretty much a green-field site. You'd need to double or triple that for a built-up location. Then there's the costs of a new station which will set you back another £50-100m.

The council don't support it because they don't have the money and they realise it's not worth it. Let's not forget that the benefit of a link would be minimal for Bradford - the main beneficiaries would be the likes of you and me (I'm up the road in Guiseley).

Bradford functioned perfectly well for decades without a cross-city line. I doubt such an undertaking would do anything to improve its economic plight. It needs to look at how other depressed areas have revived - e.g. the Silicon roundabout area in London's east end, or up the road at Saltaire?

 

[JohnB57]

I've waited for many others to respond before forming a reply. As they are all pleading for sustainable development, I thought I would be emboldened now to try and deal with your points.

WRSC is of course used by many people travelling in cars. That's not what's right with it; that's what's wrong with it. The car traveller, faced with having to pay for parking in city centres, will clearly choose the place where he does not have to pay.

So the local council should have resisted the development at WRSC. If you read the reference I gave, the expansion of WRSC is now being resisted by city centre interests - too late perhaps! The car economy horse has bolted in the Leeds Bradford area. The only saver now is to provide a station at WRSC from where people can stroll under cover into the centre and devise a plan for very frequent public transport access from all over the area.

I don't know enough about the local political areas there, but what we have seen elsewhere is often that the city council is stumped by a surrounding council which promotes OOT shopping centres (and everything else) with free parking to stymie their city neighbours.

It needs a higher level authority capable of strategic decision making that could have prevented some of these developments. It didn't happen.

It's now a long haul back to sustainable development, but it doesn't look as if it is going to happen in Bradford, hope I'm wrong.

My stand is not entirely opposite to yours, although I think that a council that had opposed the original White Rose development would have been tantamount to a turkey voting for Christmas; it would simply have moved business and jobs to a neighbouring area.

I agree entirely with you about rail access, hence my subsequent comments about Meadowhall. But engineering these places towards a certain demographic through planning decisions and controls is wrong. A bus or train isn't much use if you're collecting a 47" plasma or a six foot ladder so, contrary to what you say, gearing towards easy car use is absolutely essential and in the very nature of the beast. It's the lack of any meaningful modal choice that is the real problem. If I travel to Meadowhall by train, it's through choice. When I go by car, it's by necessity. But at least I have the option.

The "car economy horse" most certainly has not bolted and your lumping together of Leeds and Bradford in that statement indicates that it's not just the politics of the two very different cities to which you have limited insight; they differ in almost every other way too. Spend a day out with me in both places and I'll prove it to you.

But again, going back to my previous point. A council with the vision and courage to make its ailing town or city as accessible as possible to all will be taking a major step in its recovery and growth. Bradford certainly needs it.

 

[Grumpy]

I don't know enough about the local political areas there, but what we have seen elsewhere is often that the city council is stumped by a surrounding council which promotes OOT shopping centres (and everything else) with free parking to stymie their city neighbours.

.

Well you've actually described the local situation quite well.
Leeds council gave permission for the Owlcotes Centre (Marks and Spencer and Asda) almost on the Bradford border at New Pudsey. Kirklees (Huddersfield in old money) council gave permission for the Junction 27 (i.e. of the M62) retail park (IKEA and lots of others) almost on the Leeds border at Gildersome. White Rose centre is on the edge of Leeds and will attract a lot of custom from Kirklees and Wakefield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

'A fair few' isn't enough to justify the link though. Even if there were no buildings obstructing the route (and there are), a link would be an expensive undertaking. The new viaduct at Hitchin cost about £60m, and that was pretty much a green-field site. You'd need to double or triple that for a built-up location. Then there's the costs of a new station which will set you back another £50-100m.

The council don't support it because they don't have the money and they realise it's not worth it. Let's not forget that the benefit of a link would be minimal for Bradford - the main beneficiaries would be the likes of you and me (I'm up the road in Guiseley).

Bradford functioned perfectly well for decades without a cross-city line. I doubt such an undertaking would do anything to improve its economic plight. It needs to look at how other depressed areas have revived - e.g. the Silicon roundabout area in London's east end, or up the road at Saltaire?

Well if you look at some of the earlier postings and Markyt's graphical efforts you will see it suggested that most of the route from the Interchange towards Forster Square is not significantly obstructed at present, a way can be seen by using slithers of currently unused land or car parks almost all the way . Spending three times the Hitchin cost plus £100m for a new station is way over the top.

That said I accept the opportunity has been lost. The Council didn't need to spend much-merely make it a planning condition of the new centre that a route through was preserved along the eastern edge of the site to allow the future development of a link. This could have been developed above in the interim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The two stations needed to be linked in the 60s, but at the time it was Exchange that was the dominant station. Forster Square almost closed at that time, with essentially only a skeleton service to Keighley (not Skipton) remaining. British Rail's plans were for one station in Bradford, which would have been a refurbished Exchange, until Metro came along and decided to build the ridiculously oversized Interchange complex.

It isn't possible to link the stations now, that is a simple fact. Both stations have had significant building work take place across the terminal ends of the platforms, linking the stations would need- as a minimum- for the HMRC and Crown Court buildings to be demolished as well as building a viaduct through what will be the Westfield shopping centre. The gradient on that viaduct would be interesting too, as Interchange station is higher up than Forster Square.

Bradford doesn't need the two stations linking up, what it needs is for the disastrous decision to close the L&Y line through Cleckheaton to be reversed. Until that happens- and I doubt that it ever will- Bradford will remain a branch line from Leeds.

You couldn't link the railway in the 1960's as the way between was fully built on. British Rail's thinking in the 1960's about Bradford wasn't that great-whilst one department was deciding to run down Forster Square and concentrate on Exchange, another department was deciding to sell the Hotel at Exchange and retain the Midland.

It wasn't Metro that decided to build the Interchange-it was the former Bradford Council who were being reorganised away under Traitor Heath's disastrous local government reorganisation. They were determined to blow their financial balances on fixed investment in Bradford, rather than contribute to the new combined council, and made sure the Interchange was contractually committed. Their bequest to the new PTE was the most run down fleet of old rear entrance buses and the white elephant Interchange that cost an extra £1m pa to run.

Your comment re the need to demolish the Court building and run through the Westfield centre isn't really valid

 

[IanD]

Their bequest to the new PTE was the most run down fleet of old rear entrance buses...

Actually, clapped out they may have been but Bradford City Transport had a substantial fleet of front entrance AEC Regent Vs and Leyland Titans. It was only when the PTE took over that we started to see clapped out rear entrance buses shipped in from Huddersfield and Halifax on the streets of Bradford. Happy days!

 

[Tetchytyke]

You couldn't link the railway in the 1960's as the way between was fully built on. British Rail's thinking in the 1960's about Bradford wasn't that great-whilst one department was deciding to run down Forster Square and concentrate on Exchange, another department was deciding to sell the Hotel at Exchange and retain the Midland.

Your comment re the need to demolish the Court building and run through the Westfield centre isn't really valid

Except it wasn't. The old Forster Square was where the HMRC building now is, Exchange was where the Crown Court now is. The land inbetween was available, the whole Forster Square/Broadway/Petergate area was bulldozed and redeveloped in the 1960s. A railway station instead of those horrible crumbling concrete towers and dingy flooded subways would have been much better.

My comment about the demolition now required is perfectly valid. To get from the current site of Forster Square to the current site of the Interchange you would have to build through the HMRC and Royal Mail buildings, then down through what was Broadway/Petergate and then across Hall Ings and up through where the Crown Court now is.

It's possible, but it would be extraordinarily expensive.

If you read the reference I gave, the expansion of WRSC is now being resisted by city centre interests - too late perhaps! The car economy horse has bolted in the Leeds Bradford area.

Trinity Leeds says you're wrong.

MarkyT's map is interesting, although completely impracticable.

 

[Bantamzen]

Except it wasn't. The old Forster Square was where the HMRC building now is, Exchange was where the Crown Court now is. The land inbetween was available, the whole Forster Square/Broadway/Petergate area was bulldozed and redeveloped in the 1960s. A railway station instead of those horrible crumbling concrete towers and dingy flooded subways would have been much better.

My comment about the demolition now required is perfectly valid. To get from the current site of Forster Square to the current site of the Interchange you would have to build through the HMRC and Royal Mail buildings, then down through what was Broadway/Petergate and then across Hall Ings and up through where the Crown Court now is.

It's possible, but it would be extraordinarily expensive.

I was thinking about a possible link this morning whilst I walked through the current Westfield site & looked at the remains of the old Exchange station overlooking Hall Ings. Without the current tax office at Forster Square, and the courts on the site of the old exchange it's pretty much a straight line across, with a height difference of around 15 or so feet. Prior to the building of the law courts, there would have been plenty of room to start to cut in a gradient from the far side of Bridge Street from the current station to bring it down to the level of the empty site & the lines at Forster Square.

So had there been some forward thinking when the proposals for levelling the old Forster Square buildings came to light, it would have been perfectly feasible to create the link across the city, with the line cutting across only a couple of roads. So the development costs would not have been as massive as you might first imagine, but the gain for both the city & it's commuters would have been great. All this should have been up for discussion in the late '90s, and the early part of the last decade but sadly the opportunity was lost. And now with signs of movement on the Westfield site, it's probably gone forever because post build there will be little or no scope to consider the link in the future.

I do believe that there would be sufficient traffic between the Calder, and Aire / Wharfe Valleys, as well as possible additional traffic into Bradford post Westfield build to have made it successful & worth the investment. It would also have opened up an alternative diversionary route for the Trans-Pennine traffic coming to & from Huddersfield when work starts to upgrade that line.

 

[IanD]

All this should have been up for discussion in the late '90s, and the early part of the last decade but sadly the opportunity was lost. And now with signs of movement on the Westfield site, it's probably gone forever because post build there will be little or no scope to consider the link in the future.

It was up for discussion but the City council ruled it out because they'd done a feasibility study in the 70s that proved that it wasn't worthwhile. There was some lobbying at the time to get them to include provision for a future link/station in the Westfield planning permission (as had happened with development around Birmingham New Street) but it fell on deaf ears and was presented to blinkered eyes.

I've looked at this before and believe that a link could be built with minimal demolition (just the Royal Mail building which was supposed to be demolised anyway) by taking a line under Bridge Street through the carpark behind the Victoria Hotel/Law Courts, along/above where Petergate used to be (with a new combined station in that general area) then through the RM building. It would mean losing a few spaces in the hotel car park and the Forster Sq retail park but these could be offset by releasing the current F. Sq. station site for parking. A few bus stands outside the new station would provide integration with those buses then continuing to/starting from their current terminus.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I really have found some of the suggestions of through trains through a hugely expensive Bradford link suggested in this thread to be fanciful. The thought of sending Calder Valley trains into Airedale or slowing them down even further by sending them to Leeds via Shipley is just ludicrous to me.

All the local routes suggested are well covered by buses and there is little or no requirement for trains. What Bradford is crying out for is better longer distance services, a regular service to London, the services to Liverpool and Manchester Airport planned in the Northern Hub (even these may not be forthcoming according to posters here).

It is a through-station, but not in the directions these supposed Huddersfield-Ilkley/Skipton travellers would want! I remember years ago the main Huddersfield to Halifax bus route had hourly extensions to Keighley via Denholme and to Bradford via Thornton, this was in Yorkshire Rider days though. Nowadays there little if any buses from Halifax to Keighley despite the two town having stong historical links. The only real option today is to change at Bradford (train or bus) or in the summer there's the Hebden Bridge bus to Keighley. Though as the main advantages of Bradford Crossrail offered by it's advocates seem to be yet more trains into Leeds, I doubt links between any other places affected would improve all that much.

I want to correct HTAFC's comments about buses between the Calder Valley and Airedale. I live 100m from a bus stop on the 500 Hebden Bridge to Keighley route and it has never been summer only. It is nowadays an hourly, 7 day a week service that runs without Metro subsidy. Halifax to Keighley indeed only has a few direct buses on a Sunday, but there is still an hourly weekday service with connections at Denholme.

WY Metro refused to subsidise a direct Halifax-Keighley bus when First withdrew the service. If they are unwilling to spend £1,000s to on a direct bus link, I don't think there's much chance of spending £100ms on an anything but direct rail link.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I really have found some of the suggestions of through trains through a hugely expensive Bradford link suggested in this thread to be fanciful. The thought of sending Calder Valley trains into Airedale or slowing them down even further by sending them to Leeds via Shipley is just ludicrous to me.

All the local routes suggested are well covered by buses and there is little or no requirement for trains. What Bradford is crying out for is better longer distance services, a regular service to London, the services to Liverpool and Manchester Airport planned in the Northern Hub (even these may not be forthcoming according to posters here).



I want to correct HTAFC's comments about buses between the Calder Valley and Airedale. I live 100m from a bus stop on the 500 Hebden Bridge to Keighley route and it has never been summer only. It is nowadays an hourly, 7 day a week service that runs without Metro subsidy. Halifax to Keighley indeed only has a few direct buses on a Sunday, but there is still an hourly weekday service with connections at Denholme.

WY Metro refused to subsidise a direct Halifax-Keighley bus when First withdrew the service. If they are unwilling to spend £1,000s to on a direct bus link, I don't think there's much chance of spending £100ms on an anything but direct rail link.

Thanks for the correction and apologies for my original error- I was under the impression that the 500 either was summer-only, or had been initially.

I think the problem for Bradford is that most people from outside the city think of it as a bit of a joke- a few high-profile incidents (riots and the like) have taken the gloss off a city that I generally find to be very friendly and welcoming if a bit rough and ready: and that's coming from someone from 'enemy territory'! I'm not sure the Westfield development is the right thing for Bradford regardless of it blocking a potential cross-city rail route- Bradford simply can't compete with Leeds as a premier retail destination and would be better directing the regeneration efforts in the direction of arts and culture- areas in which both the past and present of the city offer something unique on a national and even international level.

Rather than building a great big viaduct and a new central station the connectivity problems could be solved far cheaper by simply introducing a second 'Free City Bus' that runs clockwise rather than anti-clockwise. In terms of the existing stations, the bus stabling area between the train and bus sections of Interchange is underused and far bigger than it needs to be- if ever extra platforms are needed in the future there's plenty of room there. The new Forster Square station is a little bit cramped but now that the 'old' site has been redeveloped there's not much that can be done about that.

As for the WRSC, I always thought it was strange that there was never a station built there, but even if there was the capacity for stops on the Huddersfield line, a station at the ideal place would be so close to not only Cottingley but Morley too that for anyone on the 'stoppers' who wasn't travelling to or from one of those three stops it would feel painfully slow- certainly as long as the line remains diesel-operated. Operationally, a station on the Wakefield line would be more workable but would require a large and expensive covered pedestrian walkway to link to the mall. On the plus-side, it would at least have a significant residential population on its' doorstep!

 

[MarkyT]

MarkyT's map is interesting, although completely impracticable.

Thanks for your interest, but I'd be keen to learn how it would be so. Perhaps the northern connection from Interchange to the Leeds via Pudsey line to avoid reversals for Leeds - Halifax trains would be just as unaffordable as the Crossrail idea, but if a connection between the existing stations (whether they are replaced by a new central one or not) would be technically feasible then I don't understand why a smaller scheme to resite the Shipley line terminal platforms alone in or under the Broadway shopping centre would be impossible. That could offer a decent pedestrian link to connect the Shipley lines with the main bus station and the Interchange rail routes without any significant expenditure at Interchange. Are you suggesting a 250m traffic-free level walk between the concourses is too far for passengers making an interchange? In that case catering for 400m trains on HS2 trains is clearly a waste of money, as no-one will be able to walk to the front at a terminal station!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Building a station underneath Westfield would be perfectly possible.

Building a train line through Hammerton Street would not be, given the gradients involved.

Interesting comments about the 500. I honestly can't remember if it was summer-only back when Yorkshire Rider had it, I seem to remember that it was, but it was certainly infrequent (three return trips IIRC). Transdev have really built the route up. I'd hope they'd do the same for the old 502 from Halifax to Keighley, but it seems that they won't, at least for now.

 

[IanD]

The thought of sending Calder Valley trains into Airedale or slowing them down even further by sending them to Leeds via Shipley is just ludicrous to me.

It's been established (if not in this thread then in the previous thread(s) on the topic) that Bradford - Leeds takes the same time whichever of the 2 available routes you take. So routing Calder Valley trains via Shipley should not take any more time (assuming you have 1 central station) as the time taken to travel across the gap would be compensated for by not having to reverse at the Interchange.