Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[anti-pacer]

I know there's been talk of Bradford getting rid of both the Interchange and Forster Square stations and having one central station, but would it be good for the city and West Yorkshire's rail passengers?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I know there's been talk of Bradford getting rid of both the Interchange and Forster Square stations and having one central station, but would it be good for the city and West Yorkshire's rail passengers?

I am yet to be convinced that one central station is feasible. I think connecting them is to form a loop and that is a good idea. It would be a huge undertaking for I think not enough gain. Yes of course it would benefit. But not compared to the costs.

Has either station even got room for expansion? It would appear that the answer to that is yes both do. I think that would be a better improvement for now.

 

[anti-pacer]

I am yet to be convinced that one central station is feasible. I think connecting them is to form a loop and that is a good idea. It would be a huge undertaking for I think not enough gain. Yes of course it would benefit. But not compared to the costs.

Has either station even got room for expansion? It would appear that the answer to that is yes both do. I think that would be a better improvement for now.

If the Caldervale line ever gets wired, I suppose you could have through services such as Ilkley-Huddersfield, but would there be a demand?

A Leeds-Kirkstall-Apperley Bridge-Shipley-Frizinghall-Bradford Forster Square-Interchange-Low Moor-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield could be an idea though.

 

[Oswyntail]

A proper through route, between the two, linking the network north and south, could really help travel (and freight) in Yorkshire. One station, on this route, could only actually be less convenient for the city than the current position of the two.

 

[IanD]

Of course it would benefit. Close both the current stations and have a new central station (call it something like bradford Exchange) where there is currently a big hole in the city centre.

See this post for my suggested route.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1220234&postcount=32

 

[John S2]

A route through Bradford would have considerable benefits, enabling journeys such as Shipley-Halifax which is not practical by rail at present. I would suggest:
1) Extend the Skipton-Bradford service to Leeds via Pudsey
2) Extend the Ilkley-Bradford service to Halifax and possibly Huddersfield
3) Manchester Victoria -Leeds services to run from Bradford to Leeds via Shipley, Apperley Bridge & Kirkstall
4) The only local services reversing at Bradford would be Blackpool-York

 

[Eagle]

To save this discussion that we've had many times before: yes it would probably have benefits, but no it's not even remotely possible.

 

[WatcherZero]

Which city was it that published proposals for one central station joining the existing stations by a viaduct? Think it was estimated at a cost of £1xxm.

 

[Eagle]

Windsor. Again, well out of the realms of feasibility.

 

[CalderRail]

Using either of the current two stations would be problematic because of where they are - both in horizontal terms and in elevation. I'm not sure what kind of incline you'd have to use to connect the two.

It also won't solve the problem that the Bradford-Leeds and Bradford-Halifax line configuration means that you have to reverse the train at the Interchange. Historically this is because everyone concerned wanted the Interchange where it was so it could also serve the Bradford-Queensbury-Thornton line (which no longer exists).

The best solution would be to build a new station on the old Bowling Curve alignment (probably between Wakefield Road and Hall Lane) about 500m South-East of the interchange. This could be done without affecting existing running to the interchange until the point where it was fully read and could be switched all in one.

Then you could work on a tunnel to connect Forster Square to the new station, again without affecting running, using the by-then disused tracks which led to the Interchange.

As a result you'd have Bradford as a through station for Leeds-Bradford-Halifax trains, and if you reinstated the Cleckheaton line and then put a curve towards Huddersfield you could viably run Hull-Selby-Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield-Manchester-Liverpool. Alternatively you could run Hull-Selby-Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Manchester-Liverpool (or you could run the services alternately through Huddersfield/Halifax) if you electrified everything it would be great.

Never happen though.

 

[HowardGWR]

Of course it would benefit. Close both the current stations and have a new central station (call it something like bradford Exchange) where there is currently a big hole in the city centre.

See this post for my suggested route.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1220234&postcount=32

Is it known why this proposal is not passionately supported by the local council? Is there an absence of civic pride in Bradford? I have often looked at this, using internet tools, and your proposal seems a no-brainer. I had assumed the big hole was because that was what they were waiting to do.

 

[CalderRail]

Is it known why this proposal is not passionately supported by the local council? Is there an absence of civic pride in Bradford? I have often looked at this, using internet tools, and your proposal seems a no-brainer. I had assumed the big hole was because that was what they were waiting to do.

Warning: You're in yorkshire, that's NOT flat.

 

[30907]

Historically this is because everyone concerned wanted the Interchange where it was so it could also serve the Bradford-Queensbury-Thornton line (which no longer exists).

Surely Bradford Exchange (LYR) was built well before the Queensbury lines (GNR) were on the cards. And Interchange 20 years after they had closed.

 

[CalderRail]

Surely Bradford Exchange (LYR) was built well before the Queensbury lines (GNR) were on the cards. And Interchange 20 years after they had closed.

It's been 50 years since it closed and some people still want it reopened. Part of the reason (not all of it) for the siting of the Interchange was to retain that option. Political battle, you see.

Anyhow, point remains: The interchange being a terminus station is a problem.

I'm also not sure what the reference to the Exchange is about. That was north east of where the Interchange is IIRC.

 

[IanD]

Is it known why this proposal is not passionately supported by the local council? Is there an absence of civic pride in Bradford? I have often looked at this, using internet tools, and your proposal seems a no-brainer. I had assumed the big hole was because that was what they were waiting to do.

The council has no vision. When I asked why they didn't support the plan in about 2002 (when they started to dig the big hole) they said because a study in the late 1970s had shown there was no call for it!

Warning: You're in yorkshire, that's NOT flat.

It's also not that much of a hill either - that part of Bradford is in the bottom of a bowl.

I'm also not sure what the reference to the Exchange is about. That was north east of where the Interchange is IIRC.

Just the other side of Bridge Street, but the Interchange kept the name Exchange for a while until the bus station was finished.

 

[CalderRail]

From memory, the Interchange Platforms are at the highest point of the station, and the Forster Square ones are very low down (I remember the approachway into the station is quite steep and cobbled).

It's 8 years since I lived in Bradford though, so I could be wrong.

I'd be very surprised if the gradient isn't an issue, is all I'm saying.

 

[IanD]

From memory, the Interchange Platforms are at the highest point of the station, and the Forster Square ones are very low down (I remember the approachway into the station is quite steep and cobbled).

It's 8 years since I lived in Bradford though, so I could be wrong.

I'd be very surprised if the gradient isn't an issue, is all I'm saying.

The tracks at the interchange are at the same level as the bus stands. Don't know why they didn't build a high level walkway between the 2.

I don't think anyone is proposing roller-coaster style gradients. But if trains can get from Bradford to Ilkley and Settle to Carlisle then one side of Bradford city centre to the other is nothing! Really, the only reason we have the situation today is down to early railway rivalry rather than topography.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From memory, the Interchange Platforms are at the highest point of the station, and the Forster Square ones are very low down (I remember the approachway into the station is quite steep and cobbled).

It's 8 years since I lived in Bradford though, so I could be wrong.

I'd be very surprised if the gradient isn't an issue, is all I'm saying.

The 'hole' in the city centre was intended to be the home of a Westfield shopping mall, but Westfield themselves pulled the plug following the economic downturn in order to concentrate on the less-risky/more lucrative developments in Sheperds Bush and Stratford. :roll: It's currently a 'temporary' "City Park".

There is certainly a fair height difference between the two. A link between them whilst retaining both stations open would probably be too tricky- and to soften the gradient between the two, one or possibly both would need to be closed whilst work was being carried out.

Really though, the current pattern of services in Bradford and West Yorkshire has developed and evolved with Bradford always having two stations and it doesn't strike me as a major problem.

In fact, crossing the city from Interchange to Forster Square is simple thanks to the FreeCityBus (in the other direction it's a bit more time-consuming unless you walk, of course!) but rather than spending an obscene amount of money ripping the heart out of the city centre (again!) and cutting it completely off the rail map for around 2 years while you do the work, simply having a second FCB route in the opposite direction to the current one would do the trick.

Even better would be to use the expertise gained with the Manchester Metrolink extensions and convert one or two of the cross-city bus routes to tramways serving both Interchange and Forster Square, as this would presumably cost far less than the 'Crossrail' link and would actually benefit the people of Bradford rather than just those passing through. Even Trolleybuses would be appropriate seeing as Leeds is getting them, and Bradford was the last UK city to get rid of the original ones.

Just my two-bob, anyway.

 

[Oswyntail]

....Really though, the current pattern of services in Bradford and West Yorkshire has developed and evolved with Bradford always having two stations and it doesn't strike me as a major problem..

That is the trouble, really. If you sat down and designed a transport system for West Yorkshire today you would put in a couple of North/South links somewhere. It is ridiculous that there are no links such as Ilkley-Halifax, because there are loads of people who make the journey daily over some pretty ropey roads.

....... Even Trolleybuses would be appropriate seeing as Leeds is getting them, and Bradford was the last UK city to get rid of the original ones...

You must be joking! If Leeds does anything, Bradford does the opposite - the two cities hate and despise each other. All Leeds has to do is declare its citizens breathe air and Bradford would vote to exclude its atmosphere.

 

[Bevan Price]

The David & Charles regional railway history series (Vol. 8, South & West Yorkshire) lists a series of failed attempts to create a single Bradford station, or a link across Bradford.
The (now closed) Midland Railway line from Royston Junction to Thornhill was part of one such attempt. It was proposed to continue via the Spen Valley and a long tunnel (over 2 miles), joining the Forster Square line north of Market Street.
Instead, they took the cheaper option of agreeing running powers over L&YR lines from Thornhill to Bradford.

Another idea was a through line from Low Moor, crossing Forster Square on a viaduct. Lack of money, then World War 1 seemes to have killed all these proposals. Later, the LMSR & LNER concluded that such a link could not be justified.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You must be joking! If Leeds does anything, Bradford does the opposite - the two cities hate and despise each other. All Leeds has to do is declare its citizens breathe air and Bradford would vote to exclude its atmosphere.

Well, as a Terrier I'm not really concerned with Bradford/Leeds relations- I simply sit high upon my woollen throne and lord it over both! That said, in cup games between the two (and in politics, and life!) I naturally support the underdog which currently would be Bradford. You only need to spend a day in Bradford to see how much the city has been left to ruin by subsequent governments. The fact that central government seems to treat 'West Yorkshire' as one settlement doesn't help, as inevitably Leeds gets everything because it's the slightly bigger of the two.

To get back on topic though, the idea of a cross-Bradford link is a noble one but I'm not sure how much it's needed. It would be far more use for freight than passengers (avoiding congested Leeds to get to the S&C) and crucially the settlement most disrupted by the construction would not be the area that benefitted from the resulting improvements.

 

[Welshman]

If the Caldervale line ever gets wired, I suppose you could have through services such as Ilkley-Huddersfield, but would there be a demand?

I doubt it. Why should folks from Huddersfield want to go to Ilkley , with, or bar t'hat? The odd few who did would probably find it quicker to change at Leeds anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A route through Bradford would have considerable benefits, enabling journeys such as Shipley-Halifax which is not practical by rail at present. I would suggest:
3)Manchester Victoria -Leeds services to run from Bradford to Leeds via Shipley, Apperley Bridge & Kirkstall

Diverting the Manchester-Calder Valley- Halifax-Leeds service via Shipley would only add to the journey-time. What is required are faster services from places like Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge & Halifax to Leeds. This could be achieved by reinstating the Bowling-Laisterdyke link, and omitting Bradford Interchange and its reversal altogether.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I doubt it. Why should folks from Huddersfield want to go to Ilkley , with, or bar t'hat? The odd few who did would probably find it quicker to change at Leeds anyway.

The current situation with not being able to get across Bradford or Halifax by rail has been that way since the Queensbury lines closed, and as such has affected peoples choices in terms of where to live so much that any significant latent demand for Hudds-Ilkley for example will have withered and died. That said, crossing Bradford on foot isn't a major problem anyway.

If Bradford Crossrail ever did get the go-ahead, I think there'd be a need to redouble the Platform 5 line at Shipley as most of the longer-distance or freight traffic that used it would most likely be heading towards the S&C.

 

[Welshman]

Historically this is because everyone concerned wanted the Interchange where it was so it could also serve the Bradford-Queensbury-Thornton line (which no longer exists).

I'm not sure that "everyone wanted the interchange where it was so it could also serve the Bradford-Queensbury-Thornton line"

Apart from the fact that line had closed had closed many years earlier, and is certainly unlikely to be restored at the Halifax end, unless you want to demolish a hotel, a Sainsbury's and Eureka! Speaking as one who was around West Yorkshire in the early 1970s, I thought the main reason for building Bradford Interchange where it is was to allow the large and decaying[but in its time, magnificent] 10-platformed station at Bradford Exchange to be demolished, and a new site to be established for a bus-rail interchange just outside.

 

[Grumpy]

I was on jury service a few months ago-the court sits on the old Exchange site. I did a lot of walking around central Bradford and pondered how a link could be built. You can walk along a footpath at the North of the Court site and look across the open space to the buildings around Forster Square.

My conclusions were similar to IanD's above. This looks very feasible. Whilst the Interchange is higher than Forster Sq this isn't a great difference and would be a help as the link would need to cross Hall Ings on a bridge and then drop down whilst passing through what is now the open space, then passing under Lower Kirkgate before climbing up to join the existing tracks in the Forster Square area.

Getting past through the tax office/Royal Mail building area seems to be the biggest problem however it was my understanding RM were planning on moving to Leeds. Nevertheless I accept there would be tight curvature around this part .

Why even think about closing the Interchange-surely it's a good thing to have the bus station next to the railway station? I accept millions were squandered on over specifying it in the 1970's (e.g. useless fancy roof, underground bus garage etc.) but that's irrelevant. Similarly Forster Square serves the Northern part of the City Centre and you would leave a couple of platforms in that part of town.

The biggest question is what use benefit would the link be? I realise people have lots of ideas on service changes but I don't see the need. You might divert the Leeds-Carlisle/Morecambe trains to run via Pudsey then through the link to give Bradford outlets to the North, and similarly some of the Leeds-Calder valley services via Shipley and the link. However the main thing would be to extend the Forster Square stoppers through to interchange and reverse them there thus giving travellers from the North of Bradford access to the bus station and South side rail services.

I am sure the link would be physically feasible.

The problem is that Bradford's lost its way. It needs a strong champion to drag it up in so many areas.

 

[Welshman]

and if you reinstated the Cleckheaton line and then put a curve towards Huddersfield you could viably run Hull-Selby-Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield-Manchester-Liverpool. Alternatively you could run Hull-Selby-Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Manchester-Liverpool (or you could run the services alternately through Huddersfield/Halifax) if you electrified everything it would be great.

It would be hard to reinstate the Cleckheaton line at Low Moor without demolishing all the new industrual premises which have been built on the old trackbed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The current situation with not being able to get across Bradford or Halifax by rail has been that way since the Queensbury lines closed, and as such has affected peoples choices in terms of where to live so much that any significant latent demand for Hudds-Ilkley for example will have withered and died. That said, crossing Bradford on foot isn't a major problem anyway.

Getting across Halifax by rail is not a problem as it is a through station, linking destinations such as Leeds & Bradford with Huddersfield and stations to Manchester.

Even when the Queensbury line was open, it didn't solve the problem of getting across Bradford, as the lines went into Exchange via St Dunstan's. There were occasional services to Keighley via Denholme, but that didn't help the "many" passengers who are supposed to have wanted to go to Ilkley!

Personally, I don't think there has ever been even a latent demand for through trains from Halifax or Huddersfield to Ilkley! Surely Metro W. Yorkshire would have instituted a through bus service if people were clamouring to make that journey! In my experience, the majority of people from Halifax, Huddersfield or Ilkley wish to go to Leeds for shopping/work/connections into other services. I really don't see the importance of a through link.

 

[JohnB57]

Halifax is effectively a branch off of the Bradford-Thornton-Keighley line so although you're correct that reinstatement of that section would be impossible, the main route is independent of Halifax. It'll still never happen, but not because of problems in Halifax.

The difference in height between Forster Square and Interchange is only around 12 metres, so even a direct line between the two would involve a gradient of about 1 in 60, a more sensible curved route, maybe 1 in 100.

Bradford's problem is not one of central government's making but one of local politics. I speak as a Colne Valleyite (Linthwaite born and bred) who spent a lot of time with grandparents in 1960s Bradford. I also worked in the city for a few years in the 80s and I can vouch for the fact that it has slowly declined from a glorious busy melting pot to a depressing run-down disgrace. Whether a single station would benefit it is open to conjecture, but if either of the two it currently has presented a fit-for-purpose "Welcome to Bradford", that would be a start...

 

[Welshman]

Getting past through the tax office/Royal Mail building area seems to be the biggest problem however it was my understanding RM were planning on moving to Leeds. Nevertheless I accept there would be tight curvature around this part .

Why even think about closing the Interchange-surely it's a good thing to have the bus station next to the railway station? I accept millions were squandered on over specifying it in the 1970's (e.g. useless fancy roof, underground bus garage etc.) but that's irrelevant. Similarly Forster Square serves the Northern part of the City Centre and you would leave a couple of platforms in that part of town.

The biggest question is what use benefit would the link be? I realise people have lots of ideas on service changes but I don't see the need.

The problem is that Bradford's lost its way. It needs a strong champion to drag it up in so many areas.

I, for one, would be very happy if the tax office in Bradford Forster Square were to be demolished, but I fear they would only build another one elsewhere.

I agree entirely with you - when the Bradford Interchange was built in the 1970s, it was heralded as a break-through in public transport integration. We often admire integrated systems in Europe. So why close one such location here, even though there have been problems with the bus exchange section?

Along with you, I don't really see the need of a cross-Bradford link, other than that provided currently by the free bus service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bradford's problem is not one of central government's making but one of local politics. I speak as a Colne Valleyite (Linthwaite born and bred) who spent a lot of time with grandparents in 1960s Bradford. I also worked in the city for a few years in the 80s and I can vouch for the fact that it has slowly declined from a glorious busy melting pot to a depressing run-down disgrace. Whether a single station would benefit it is open to conjecture, but if either of the two it currently has presented a fit-for-purpose "Welcome to Bradford", that would be a start...

Greetings to a fellow Colne Valleyite!

Despite my forum-name, I was born in Halifax[of Welsh ancestry], and then worked across the Valley with the Golcar Lillies from 1970-1977!

 

[tbtc]

Yes of course it would benefit. But not compared to the costs

Couldn't put it better myself.

For the cost of demolishing chunks of central Bradford to squeeze a new line in (which wouldn't provide any significant new links of use to large numbers of people) we could electrify the Calder Valley line and probably have a few quid spare.

 

[CalderRail]

It would be hard to reinstate the Cleckheaton line at Low Moor without demolishing all the new industrual premises which have been built on the old trackbed.

Last I checked the old trackbed was an access road and a cycleway. You might have to build a new road for the industrial unit, but that's it.

Here's the aerial view, you can clearly see the track alignment as "Sustrans 66"

https://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=Sus...&hnear=Sustrans+Route+66,+United+Kingdom&z=15

I agree entirely with you - when the Bradford Interchange was built in the 1970s, it was heralded as a break-through in public transport integration. We often admire integrated systems in Europe. So why close one such location here, even though there have been problems with the bus exchange section?

As I said earlier, my opinion is that the Interchange's problem is its nature as a terminus. If it were built on the old bowling curve as a through station with routes south and south-west to access, it'd pick up a lot more traffic and drive the (projected) cross-pennine route through the city. As it is, it's more likely to get bypassed and left to further decay by any such route.