BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[martybabes]

it sets a precedent


How, exactly, does it do this?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Wow, I had no idea they were still using Absolute Block in the Stockport area!

yep between heaton norris and edgeley 1

 

[Oswyntail]

Ill have to watch it again on iPlayer then.
But the point still stands, if she had any other ticket other than one that required a compulsory seat reservation, i.e. an AP ticket then the TM would not have acted in such a way that she did, nor by asking the TM that as she had muddled up when she was to travel if she could go on that service. We all know RPIs and they just dont normally do such a thing as, with the posts above about the alleged stolen ticket, it sets a precedent that VT will aloow you to do anything which is patently not true.

So a passenger turns up with a valid ticket that she mistakenly believes limits her to one particular train, and she is obviously confused (as are many, even on this board) - you are saying that an RPI (or whatever member of staff was approached by her) would only take any notice of her if she was a fare-dodger. Welcome to customer service, railways style!

 

[IanXC]

I guess we're not quite sure whether the problem was passed to anothe TM at Crewe, clearly the stolen ticket was taken off the faredodger, but I was iunclear whether the TM retained the YP one.

 

[driver_m]

There's a lot of criticism here about both how the tm 'let' the fare dodger off and the editing being very jumpy. How do you all know that the tm didn't try to get the btp? Or took advice from management on the best course of action? The editing was all over the place. Routine phone calls probably don't make good tv. On the other hand, a mouthy ginger having a bizarre rant at unions, or the signaller's dirty feet protest is good tv!

 

[RJ]

I was looking forward to this episode as I have an affinity with the West Coast, having worked along the length of it for all of my railway career so far! I saw some of the people I used to work alongside, wasn't expecting them to show face on TV! I think it would have been good if they had shown an aerial shot of the stampedes that happen at Euston, particularly on Friday evenings when somebody with a good sense of humour decides to advertise departures from platforms 12, 14 and 15 at exactly the same time!

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

Dispatch staff at Euston get paid more than the RPOs, or RPCSAs as Virgin are introducing. RPIs with Virgin are a different grade althogether, who are paid a bit more than the Euston dispatchers.

I wasn't very impressed with what appeared to be a TM physically searching people for alcohol between 9 and 10 minutes in - surely that's down to the police?

I thought the RPI asked to see her ticket and then noticed the time was wrong.. But if it was an Off Peak then she wouldve been told to wait for the next off peak service after 1900 rather than be put on the train so I think its fair to say that it had to have been an advance purchase. And if it was an anytime ticket then there would not have been any need for her to ask the TM to let her on.

A lot of people with flexible tickets aren't aware that they can travel on trains other than the one they have reserved a seat on! Certainly when I worked in the Customer Information Point, a lot of people with Anytime/Off Peak tickets asked the question. With the CIP at Euston, the vast majority of queries are from passengers asking which platform their train is going from, often when it's the only one on the boards not yet showing as it's not ready for boarding. It's true that a lot of people don't bother saying thank you, but that's just the way people are - you get used to it before long. It's a rewarding job anyway, especially people say things like "you're a credit to the UK and should be an ambassador"

Every now and again, passengers would come to the CIP asking for TOPS/TRUST printouts or questions like "Where exactly can I go with this London to Manchester ticket" which required use of the NRG. To be honest I found working in the CIP more enjoyable than the ticket office and colleagues (regardless of uniform colour) knew they could send anyone with unusually complex journey or ticketing type queries straight to me if they needed any kind of assistance, as well as anything to do with London

He was also very helpful to the driver bearing in mind that he was asked to confirm the rotation test where in fact the role of the guard is a fraction of the responsibility it used to be. Good on him I say I thought he was a competent member of his team and carried out his duties well!

Virgin's TMs have 10 weeks of training during which a lot of material is covered. They do have quite a lot on in terms of responsibility, particularly when things go wrong. Pressing door buttons and doing tickets accounts for less than half of the course material!

 

[Clip]

it sets a precedent


How, exactly, does it do this?

Do you work in the industry in a CS facing role? If you did then you would know how it does. Ill tell you if you dont. People will have watched that and saw an instance where someone has been caught by a TM with an alleged stolen ticket and has been let off scott free.

With the second incident it has shown that someone who doesnt know that we work on the 24hour clock(or 'Railway time as the RPI stated which is wrong) has been allowed on to another service. Plenty of people and threads on here and news stories have been full of people who have been caught out on AP tickets on the wrong train and been faced with either an UPFN or brand new ticket - wasnt there a bit at the start where a gadge had to upgrade to go on a peak service?? So now they have let one person use a service her ticket was not valid for it sets a precident, in as much as word will go round that 'You let the woman on the telly do it why not me?' I wouldve thought this was obvious to all and sundry, but I guess not.

So a passenger turns up with a valid ticket that she mistakenly believes limits her to one particular train, and she is obviously confused (as are many, even on this board) - you are saying that an RPI (or whatever member of staff was approached by her) would only take any notice of her if she was a fare-dodger. Welcome to customer service, railways style!

Youre getting confused with what you thought I was I said to what I actually said, this doesnt surprise me. I never said she would only take notice of her if she was a fare dodger at all so dont make things up. Read the reply above to the other person I quoted.

Ill watch it again but read again what I said the RPI done when she spoke to her - she said 'Ill see what I can do'. That implies the ticket was not valid for any other service apart from the one the reservation was for. ANY other ticket would have elicited another answer from both the RPI and the TM. UNLESS they had been instructed to be nice if the cameras were on them.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with Clip. If the passenger had a walk-up ticket with a non-mandatory seat reservation, then surely all that is needed to be said was that the passenger is not obliged to take the "booked" service. There would only be the need to discuss this with the TM if the passenger's ticket wouldn't normally be accepted. This leads me to believe it was an AP ticket.

Of course we don't know if there was more to the other story with the TM that was cut out, but if so then the editing definitely sends the wrong impression in my opinion. But remember that this was filmed when Virgin needed to drum up support from the public for their franchise renewal and I suspect there were orders from management on how to react in front of the cameras - alas it has only made me like them less.

Am I also the only one who found the person manning the Manchester information point to be quite disrespectful. I understand that a lot of the queries were quite time-wasting since platform numbers are available on the huge screens, but he seemed to have a snigger every time after the passenger had left.

 

[Clip]

A lot of people with flexible tickets aren't aware that they can travel on trains other than the one they have reserved a seat on! Certainly when I worked in the Customer Information Point, a lot of people with Anytime/Off Peak tickets asked the question. With the CIP at Euston, the vast majority of queries are from passengers asking which platform their train is going from, often when it's the only one on the boards not yet showing as it's not ready for boarding. It's true that a lot of people don't bother saying thank you, but that's just the way people are - you get used to it before long. It's a rewarding job anyway, especially people say things like "you're a credit to the UK and should be an ambassador"

I am well aware of all the questions posed and asked by passengers with tickets that could be valid to send them to Mars thank you. Again that is not what I was getting at nor what I was saying.

As you have worked in the industry then you know EXACTLY what your answer would be to someone who came up to you with a ticket that was valid. The scene in question showed that it was not valid which is why the RPI went to ask the TM if they could travel on a service different to what was on her reservation.

As you well know the answer anyone wouldve given her wouldve been one that told her you can get on that train or even if off peak/super off peak one that was valid at that time NOT one that said, let me see what I can do for you as if you were going out your way.

Im struggling to understand why some of you cant seem to grasp this.

I agree with Clip. If the passenger had a walk-up ticket with a non-mandatory seat reservation, then surely all that is needed to be said was that the passenger is not obliged to take the "booked" service. There would only be the need to discuss this with the TM if the passenger's ticket wouldn't normally be accepted. This leads me to believe it was an AP ticket.

.

Thank you. At least someone seems to understand what im on about.

 

[bronzeonion]

As expected, lots of negative and pedantic posts about tonights programme just like the last 3 weeks!

One thing though, I dont understand how that rotation test thing they did on the Pendo caused a whole hour of delay! If someone could explain please do

 

[SS4]

I'm in shock they acknowledged the existence of the City of Birmingham.

Presenting the TV executive map of England, Black represents Terra Icognita:

(that blob up north is Manchester)

 

[Clip]

As expected, lots of negative and pedantic posts about tonights programme just like the last 3 weeks!

One thing though, I dont understand how that rotation test thing they did on the Pendo caused a whole hour of delay! If someone could explain please do

Train has to stop. Get a possession on the other line, do the test, then get permission and the possession to be removed. Knock on effects throughout the line through all subsequent services both north and south being delayed as you then get fasts backed up behind slows or semi fasts.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
Youre getting confused with what you thought I was I said to what I actually said, this doesnt surprise me. I never said she would only take notice of her if she was a fare dodger at all so dont make things up. Read the reply above to the other person I quoted.

Perhaps your reply was itself a little confused. However, I do apologise, as I meant to frame my remark as a question.

.... she said 'Ill see what I can do'. That implies the ticket was not valid for any other service apart from the one the reservation was for. ..

No it doesn't - it implies merely that she was trying to help a passenger who was flustered and possibly getting more so. If she had said "Come along, I'll see what I can do to find you an unreserved seat" it would still fit the situation

 

[RJ]

I am well aware of all the questions posed and asked by passengers with tickets that could be valid to send them to Mars thank you. Again that is not what I was getting at nor what I was saying.

As you have worked in the industry then you know EXACTLY what your answer would be to someone who came up to you with a ticket that was valid. The scene in question showed that it was not valid which is why the RPI went to ask the TM if they could travel on a service different to what was on her reservation.

As you well know the answer anyone wouldve given her wouldve been one that told her you can get on that train or even if off peak/super off peak one that was valid at that time NOT one that said, let me see what I can do for you as if you were going out your way.

Im struggling to understand why some of you cant seem to grasp this.


Thank you. At least someone seems to understand what im on about.

Sorry, I misread your post. When you said "if it was an anytime ticket then there would not have been any need for her to ask the TM to let her on," I mistakenly thought you were talking about the passenger, didn't realise you were talking about the RPO.

 

[Silv1983]

I kid you not - I have just made myself a bowl of popcorn!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Steals FC ticket, sits in standard.

And that doesn't raise suspicion?

I also get the impression that the editors have looked at the shots of trains accelerating and decelerating that they have - and just put a random noise with it!
I've heard a 350 at Piccadilly, a 323 noise for a 185 and a Pendolio at Euston sounding like a diesel!

They've also reversed the footage to get the psychologically "positive" left to right movement as seen with the Northern Leeds 158 at the beginning (all the driving controls were on the right).

 

[Clip]

No it doesn't - it implies merely that she was trying to help a passenger who was flustered and possibly getting more so. If she had said "Come along, I'll see what I can do to find you an unreserved seat" it would still fit the situation

No, it wouldnt. They do not do this. The woman didnt seem to be getting anymore flustered then she already was because she doesnt know how to read a clock time. She is an RPI, by her very nature she is there to stop people getting on the train because her ticket is not valid. They do this everyday and as yet I have NEVER seen them let anyone through like that and have ALWAYS made them buy a new ticket.

Sorry, I misread your post. When you said "if it was an anytime ticket then there would not have been any need for her to ask the TM to let her on," I mistakenly thought you were talking about the passenger, didn't realise you were talking about the RPO.

No worries

 

[175001]

E2A: I was surprised at the flags; I've only ever seen people waving flags to despatch trains at heritage railways or railtours. I thought that all modern trains had communication bells/buzzers, making flag waving (and whistle blowing, for that matter) unnecessary.

We still do it out of Man Vic/Man Pic and Man Airport. Its the method of work for many years!

An excellent episode all round. I think the criticism of the TM is wrong. We, as guards, and all customer facing roles on the industry, are trained in conflict avoidance, and to go in all guns blazing, like he said, is asking for trouble. OK yes, he should have called the BTP, BUT we don't know the full story after the man left the train do we? He might have called ahead to Crewe to warn them? He might have phone retail control giving a description of the man, so that a broadcast could be sent to all TM's on the route?

But all in all, an excellent episode, and like the lad at Piccadilly said, please use some manners when we help you

 

[SS4]

No, it wouldnt. They do not do this. The woman didnt seem to be getting anymore flustered then she already was because she doesnt know how to read a clock time. She is an RPI, by her very nature she is there to stop people getting on the train because her ticket is not valid. They do this everyday and as yet I have NEVER seen them let anyone through like that and have ALWAYS made them buy a new ticket.

The implication being that she was only let on because the cameras were there? I can get behind that

Makes me wonder just how much has been manipulated by both the film crew and the staff (whether acting upon orders or not).

I was quite disappointed that there was no real focus on any of the other WCML operators especially LM with their driver troubles (if it was filmed at that time) or their services on the Trent Valley

 

[trainophile]

I can't understand why the lad even bothered to steal a ticket when he already had one, albeit without the necessary railcard. By sitting in standard he was obviously in no position to plead ownership of the first class stolen one, and just added theft to a presumably lesser punishable ticket offence.

The bit that made me wish for a little more compassion was the young woman missing the last train of the night because "the doors shut two minutes before departure", even though it was still in the station. I know absolutely nothing about pre-departure routines, but given her plight and the time of night I thought just possibly they could have allowed her to dash for it.

The footy fans stampede was a joke if ticket checks were allegedly being done on boarding. Not a hope. Also given the overcrowding it's unlikely they were checked on the journey.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I can't understand why the lad even bothered to steal a ticket when he already had one, albeit without the necessary railcard. By sitting in standard he was obviously in no position to plead ownership of the first class stolen one, and just added theft to a presumably lesser punishable ticket offence.

The bit that made me wish for a little more compassion was the young woman missing the last train of the night because "the doors shut two minutes before departure", even though it was still in the station. I know absolutely nothing about pre-departure routines, but given her plight and the time of night I thought just possibly they could have allowed her to dash for it.

The footy fans stampede was a joke if ticket checks were allegedly being done on boarding. Not a hope. Also given the overcrowding it's unlikely they were checked on the journey.

She didn't turn up two minutes before though, they were only chatting for about 25 seconds before it left... he said two minutes but she wasn't there for two minutes.

 

[GodAtum]

No point checking tickets on the footie days, the priority should be smooth passenger flow. Why dont they fit automatic ticket gates anyway?

Ive seen people try to run up to trains and literally bounce off the doors as they are closing! So it's good that they stopped her.

 

[Ferret]

GodAtum - spot on. The last thing anyone wants is somebody else to fall down the gap and perish

 

[Statto]

I can't understand why the lad even bothered to steal a ticket when he already had one, albeit without the necessary railcard. By sitting in standard he was obviously in no position to plead ownership of the first class stolen one, and just added theft to a presumably lesser punishable ticket offence.

The bit that made me wish for a little more compassion was the young woman missing the last train of the night because "the doors shut two minutes before departure", even though it was still in the station. I know absolutely nothing about pre-departure routines, but given her plight and the time of night I thought just possibly they could have allowed her to dash for it.

The footy fans stampede was a joke if ticket checks were allegedly being done on boarding. Not a hope. Also given the overcrowding it's unlikely they were checked on the journey.

We don't know whether the ticket was stolen, however he was travelling without a valid ticket should have at least been given an UPFN.

If i can help it i wouldn't turn up so close to departure time of the train, & think notices are up at Euston that train doors shut 2 minutes before departure, & it's a bit of a walk from the concourse to the platforms at Euston.

 

[Monty]

The train manager's idea for all the drunks returning to Liverpool was fantastic. Turn up the heating, dim the lights... and there all zzzzzzzzz

I thought that was a particularly nice touch. It's a pity I can't manipulate the temperature in the passenger saloons of 450s, otherwise my Friday and Saturday nights would be so much more pleasant!

 

[Mintona]

Can't believe how much some of you are criticising certain staff members. I thought they were all excellent in this episode, as thy have been through most of the series.

 

[Ferret]

An excellent episode all round. I think the criticism of the TM is wrong. We, as guards, and all customer facing roles on the industry, are trained in conflict avoidance, and to go in all guns blazing, like he said, is asking for trouble. OK yes, he should have called the BTP, BUT we don't know the full story after the man left the train do we? He might have called ahead to Crewe to warn them? He might have phone retail control giving a description of the man, so that a broadcast could be sent to all TM's on the route?

Do you not see that throwing somebody off in those circumstances is NOT conflict avoidance, and sooner or later will lead to precisely the opposite?!

 

[MattRobinson]

They've also reversed the footage to get the psychologically "positive" left to right movement as seen with the Northern Leeds 158 at the beginning (all the driving controls were on the right).

I noticed that too. I did wonder why there was someone sat in the secondman's seat, I presumed that he was a manager or trainer.

We still do it out of Man Vic/Man Pic and Man Airport. Its the method of work for many years!

Why? Why not just use the buzzer like most other places? (I'm not trying to pick holes in the rulebook or anything here, I'm just interested to know why these stations require the use of flags)



Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[175001]

Why? Why not just use the buzzer like most other places? (I'm not trying to pick holes in the rulebook or anything here, I'm just interested to know why these stations require the use of flags)

Its just been a method of work and a local instruction for years at these stations, don't ask me why, I've only been based here 4 years.

Do you not see that throwing somebody off in those circumstances is NOT conflict avoidance, and sooner or later will lead to precisely the opposite?!

We cannot judge, as the full story wasn't told on the documentary. Like he said, some Guards/TM's will do ape at things like that, I don't.

Like the TM, I give passengers time to look for tickets, look for railcards, I also have a stern side if I know a passenger is having me on. Its discretion. I have my own method of working trains, you have a method of work of working trains. We're all not the same in the role. You work your train as you see fit, and i'll work mine as I see fit. :roll:

Got to say, I'd love to work at Blea-k Moor SB tho

 

[jon0844]

While there are probably plenty of people with the same views, I do think the bit with the guy who moaned about the unions and not working through the night etc was likely a member of the production crew that 'acted up' in a rather OTT fashion merely to create the perfect link to the NR section that followed.

 

[trainophile]

Just to clarify, I did mean let her make a dash for it WITH the despatch and door operator's prior agreement!

(Is it despatch or dispatch in this context, or isn't dispatch a word?)