BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Sometimes you do just know that somebody is lying about the address given. Body language gives them away.

I'm sure you're pretty good at guessing and anyone in such a role will probably have a higher than average chance of getting it right, but its still my no means a guarantee. I'm not one of those "I know my rights" type, but ultimately if someone has no intention of paying, only the Police have any real power. The best weapon a Guard has in the absence of any easily available BTP is using the power of the crowd to either shame someone into paying there and then or eject them from the train somewhere they don't want to be. Hoping they are being truthful and telling you all their particulars and a promise to pay later strikes me as a touch, err, wishful thinking?
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Don't really know much about signalling and stuff but couldn't they just had the signal before the section they were alongside turned to red and just have trains waiting rather than a posession?

Yes, provided the signal is "controlled" from the signalbox. Not every signal has direct control from signalbox, Automatic signals don't usually have any indication or control (especially in older installations) and the nearest signal to use to protect someone examining a train can be many miles away. Usually the best idea is to clear any immediate trains on the adjacent line first and then grant the driver a blockage of the line. There is a short form to fill in as well, although this normally takes only 30 seconds or so.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, less than 60 passengers used it...

It is sad that so few used it (I'd rather see more of this sort of thing). But then again, the majority of weekend intercity travelers probably use advance fares, so presumably wouldn't have been able to travel on it anyway.

 

[Essexman]

As a regular traveller but not a railway employee the programme gave the message to me that if you get caught without a ticket on a Virgin train the worst that will happen is that you'll be chucked off the train, and if you turn up with an Advance ticket for the wrong train but have a good story, you'll probably be let on.

I suspect that the lady with the 6.36 ticket was genuine and the stolen ticket man wasn't - so should have had his details taken and BTP called to meet train at Crewe (but train not delayed if they weren't there when the train arrived).

I've seen plenty of examples of excessive leniance, common sense actions and excessive hard line in my travels. Sometimes Train Managers (not only Virgin) allow passenger to use wrong Advance with nothing other than a quick word, others make them buy a full single. Most annoying incident was Hereford to London HST delayed for 25 minutes at Worcester with gurard refusing to open the doors until BTP arrived to deal with three teenagers without tickets.

 

[martybabes]

So now they have let one person use a service her ticket was not valid for it sets a precident, in as much as word will go round that 'You let the woman on the telly do it why not me?' I wouldve thought this was obvious to all and sundry, but I guess not.

If anything, it could possibly lead to setting a trend for something similar to happen.

A precedent is something entirely different. Maybe I thought that was obvious to all...

 

[EM2]

I have a feeling Mr. Lazy F***s might not receive the ultimate in customer service on his next journey

 

[AntoniC]

None as they can't claim first class travel on expenses.

Yes they can,

It just depends on how high up the food chain they are.

I'm a Civil Servant and the last work related trip I went on (Liverpool Lime St to Bham New St and back), my employer was v reluctant to pay the standard class £24 return fare on LM.

 

[Ploughman]

Re the guy with the alleged "Stolen Ticket"
He got put off at Crewe rightly so if case cannot be proved and BTP would take time to attend, interview all concerned etc etc.
No one has asked the obvious question.
How does he get off Crewe platforms without a ticket?
Is it barriered? I don't know.
Are all other services on train ticket inspection?

I think he may have got pulled by someone else, maybe for a lesser amount though.

 

[work-traveller]

Did it strike anyone as odd that a program about the West Coast Mainline didn't mention the actual ultimate destination - i.e. Glasgow? Lots of good stuff about Manchester, Birmingham and Euston - but nothing about the destination that actually gives rise to the line name. Heck - strictly speaking Birmingham, Manchester (& Liverpool) are all on branches off the WCML!

If they bring out a dvd of the series perhaps it should be renamed 'The Railway: Keeping England on Track'.

 

[313103]

Its all the unions fault! They should be made to work through the night!

Oh the irony of both those comments made by the same (i wish i could swear, but i cant so i will leave it there).

One thing that has really surprised me (not that after 33 years i shouldn't be) is how very ignorant and how damn rude passengers can be. No manners whatsoever.

 

[Statto]

Re the guy with the alleged "Stolen Ticket"
He got put off at Crewe rightly so if case cannot be proved and BTP would take time to attend, interview all concerned etc etc.
No one has asked the obvious question.
How does he get off Crewe platforms without a ticket?
Is it barriered? I don't know.
Are all other services on train ticket inspection?

I think he may have got pulled by someone else, maybe for a lesser amount though.

Crewe is not barriered not sure if RPIs do revenue checks at Crewe as when we did the Cheshire Day Ranger the other week we walked in & out of Crewe station onto the main Road to find somewhere to eat without once our tickets being checked & RPIs nowhere to be seen.
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Did it strike anyone as odd that a program about the West Coast Mainline didn't mention the actual ultimate destination - i.e. Glasgow? Lots of good stuff about Manchester, Birmingham and Euston - but nothing about the destination that actually gives rise to the line name. Heck - strictly speaking Birmingham, Manchester (& Liverpool) are all on branches off the WCML!

If they bring out a dvd of the series perhaps it should be renamed 'The Railway: Keeping England on Track'.

That felt odd, not even Preston/Lancaster or Carlisle mentioned Crewe was only featured when the lad without the valid tickets got off.

 

[Ferret]

Ploughman, you're missing the point. He failed to show a valid ticket when asked - if the theft can't be proved despite the presence of CCTV on Pendos, then I'd still be doing him for Byelaw 18.

My lot would consider disciplinary action for what that TM did. You do not eject somebody from the train over revenue issues. Simple as.

 

[jon0844]

Just a stupid idiot who clearly cant think !!

I really do think that was staged as a link to the next bit that had NR saying about how people think they're lazy.

Sure there are lots of t***ts out there, but I just got that impression.. along with a few other things that seemed staged throughout the series.

Remember, it's an entertainment show first and foremost.

 

[yorkie]

As a regular traveller but not a railway employee the programme gave the message to me that if you get caught without a ticket on a Virgin train the worst that will happen is that you'll be chucked off the train, and if you turn up with an Advance ticket for the wrong train but have a good story, you'll probably be let on.

Most Virgin TMs are 'lenient'. But some are the opposite, and harass passengers on valid tickets.

I've not personally experienced any bad ones but one example I can give is someone on an Advance ticket, on the booked train stated on their mandatory reservation coupon, and the guard told them that they should not be travelling on the booked train and should instead have taken trains provided by other Train Companies because that was a shorter route. Yes, seriously this really did happen! There's also a particularly nasty character around who harasses people on Off Peak tickets that are valid, and refuses to look up the restriction code. Virgin are aware of the bad ones but need people to complain so they can do something about them!

The vast majority do seem to me to be very good though.

Most annoying incident was Hereford to London HST delayed for 25 minutes at Worcester with gurard refusing to open the doors until BTP arrived to deal with three teenagers without tickets.

25 minutes seems a bit much! What did FGW say about that? I'd have thought they'd have a policy on the maximum time that the doors can be kept locked at a booked station for, but maybe not...

 

[Sheepy1209]

Just watched this, and the thing that stood out for me was that magpies are too clever to be killed by a Northern DMU, but an easy target for Virgin.

What is it about magpies?

 

[6Gman]

The west coast main lime must be mu favourite episode so far.


Really hope this is picked up for a second series.

But I hope they find some new themes!

So far each episode has repeated:

some trains get very busy
some passengers are obnoxious
others break the rules
drunken passengers sometimes do both
some staff are 'characters'
peak fares are expensive
don't mess around the tracks

 

[Manchester77]

Just watched this, and the thing that stood out for me was that magpies are too clever to be killed by a Northern DMU, but an easy target for Virgin.

What is it about magpies?

hm maybe that northern's maximum speed is what 90 mph, 100 at the most and virgins is 125..?

 

[Harbon 1]

Just watched this, and the thing that stood out for me was that magpies are too clever to be killed by a Northern DMU, but an easy target for Virgin.

What is it about magpies?

One's doing 75, the other 125?

Edit - Damn beaten to it!

 

[6Gman]

Re the guy with the alleged "Stolen Ticket"
He got put off at Crewe rightly so if case cannot be proved and BTP would take time to attend, interview all concerned etc etc.
No one has asked the obvious question.
How does he get off Crewe platforms without a ticket?
Is it barriered? I don't know.
Are all other services on train ticket inspection?

I think he may have got pulled by someone else, maybe for a lesser amount though.

As pointed out already Crewe is normally barrier-free. Very, very, very occasionally they put on a ticket check {but there's a very straightforward alternative even then}.

Most trains out of Crewe will be subject to on-train checks - but they're uncommon on certain services operated by ... er ... Virgin.

(On my last two journeys to London we went Crewe-Euston without a ticket inspection. On one the TM spent 90% of the journey chatting to (chatting up?) the shop staff!

 

[Starmill]

Yes, I thought the talk about Militant TMs was a bit silly too. I bet he is popular at his depot after that episode was broadcast! I'd like to hope the idea of being on TV went to his head a little and he said a few things he might normally think twice about.

Militant TMs? I know this is anecdotal evidence, but I have recently written to Virgin and mentioned that my tickets frequently go unchecked, and Manchester to London as well! And checking before Crewe / Stoke-on-Trent? This has never happened, to me (although I only travel at the weekend, so this may be why).

 

[EM2]

My lot would consider disciplinary action for what that TM did. You do not eject somebody from the train over revenue issues. Simple as.

I often receive messages from Control that says 'a fare evader has been invited to leave such-and-such a service at this station'. They then give a description, what journey they are trying to make and ask all TMs to be aware.

 

[Pumbaa]

As anecdotal evidence, the TM on my London - Liverpool train today was not impressed with the TM at all. 'Disgrace to the grade' and 'balls made of philly cheese' were the two phrases that stood out as the TM and the CSA in the shop moaned about the programme last night.

 

[yorkie]

Militant TMs? I know this is anecdotal evidence, but I have recently written to Virgin and mentioned that my tickets frequently go unchecked, and Manchester to London as well!

I'm not quite sure what this would achieve, but in my experience of the East Coast route , the lack of a ticket check indicates a Guard that is doing a lot of UFNs. The most infamous of them all is no longer seen, but on a peak train (so nowhere near as busy as the first off peak trains) from York to London, we walked to the front of Standard, and he had checked from the rear and hadn't yet got to the buffet, he was even doing a UFN as we passed Finsbury Park!

 

[Starmill]

Most trains out of Crewe will be subject to on-train checks - but they're uncommon on certain services operated by ... er ... Virgin.

(On my last two journeys to London we went Crewe-Euston without a ticket inspection. On one the TM spent 90% of the journey chatting to (chatting up?) the shop staff!

Your experiences tally entirely with my own here
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I'm not quite sure what this would achieve, but in my experience of the East Coast route , the lack of a ticket check indicates a Guard that is doing a lot of UFNs. The most infamous of them all is no longer seen, but on a peak train (so nowhere near as busy as the first off peak trains) from York to London, we walked to the front of Standard, and he had checked from the rear and hadn't yet got to the buffet, he was even doing a UFN as we passed Finsbury Park!

Sorry - it wasn't intended to achieve anything. I put it in because I thought it supported my "I have paid for these tickets and..." argument. I was writing about separate issues. You may or may not think this wise, but the idea of somebody getting a journey to London for free (I've never seen Virgin revenue staff at Manchester, nor at Euston for arrivals, but I may be wrong of course), especially some people I know, who would happily think its OK to board trains and only pay if challenged, does appeal to my sense of solid unfairness.

In any case, I was successful.

Interestingly, despite the fact that I buried only one clause about not being checked 3/4 of the way down the page, they didn't miss it. Look how far they ran with that ball:

I share your concerns about no ticket checks being made during your journey, and that this could result in certain passengers being able to travel without paying their fare.

We ask our Train Managers to make regular ticket checks as part of their on-board duties. They will not always reach every customer, but it sends out a strong message if they keep a very visible presence. Our on-bord policy where we only sell full price tickets once the train has started its journey is also a powerful deterrent to ticketless travel.

Some areas, where short hop journeys are possible, provide more specific challenges. We are further exploring ideas of having automatic ticket gates and staffed barriers to platforms. We will also prosecute anyone who is intending to travel without a valid ticket.

What am I to make of that!?

 

[dmacw]

My lot would consider disciplinary action for what that TM did. You do not eject somebody from the train over revenue issues. Simple as.

Why ever not??

No ticket, no money, no travel. I have seen that on many a message sent out by our control room.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm in shock they acknowledged the existence of the City of Birmingham.

Presenting the TV executive map of England, Black represents Terra Icognita:

(that blob up north is Manchester)

Many a true word spoken in jest. Unfortunately, it seems to have caught on at the DfT too.
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I'm not quite sure what this would achieve, but in my experience of the East Coast route , the lack of a ticket check indicates a Guard that is doing a lot of UFNs. The most infamous of them all is no longer seen, but on a peak train (so nowhere near as busy as the first off peak trains) from York to London, we walked to the front of Standard, and he had checked from the rear and hadn't yet got to the buffet, he was even doing a UFN as we passed Finsbury Park!

In the days when certain types of ticket were not valid on Intercity services and Stevenage was pick-up only, both rules were widely ignored because the guard virtually never checked the entire train between there and Stevenage.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There's a lot of criticism here about both how the tm 'let' the fare dodger off and the editing being very jumpy. How do you all know that the tm didn't try to get the btp? Or took advice from management on the best course of action? The editing was all over the place. Routine phone calls probably don't make good tv. On the other hand, a mouthy ginger having a bizarre rant at unions, or the signaller's dirty feet protest is good tv!

Spot on, Guards/TM's whatever you like to call us have discretion and yes we use it from time to time, in a perfect world BTP would have been waiting at Crewe but chances are (as there are not that many officers) there were none available, good Customer Services and handling of situations from both TM's in my opinion as I have spoken to both on a few occasions when i am booked pass to crewe etc. they are both good knowledgeable lads to the people criticising spend a few days in their (or any guards shoes) then maybe, just maybe you would understand why both did what they did instead of going on a rant.

 

[Ferret]

Spot on, Guards/TM's whatever you like to call us have discretion and yes we use it from time to time, in a perfect world BTP would have been waiting at Crewe but chances are (as there are not that many officers) there were none available, good Customer Services and handling of situations from both TM's in my opinion as I have spoken to both on a few occasions when i am booked pass to crewe etc. they are both good knowledgeable lads to the people criticising spend a few days in their (or any guards shoes) then maybe, just maybe you would understand why both did what they did instead of going on a rant.

That's the thing - what do I do for a living?!

I can tell you exactly why that TM did that - he didn't want to deal with the issue.:roll: And I'm sorry, but that's just not ****ing good enough. Read what Pumbaa has heard to understand what his own colleagues think of him, and rightly so.
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Why ever not??

No ticket, no money, no travel. I have seen that on many a message sent out by our control room.

How many times do I have to say this before some of you, including the Guards on here get it?!

You do not throw somebody off, just to pass the problem onto the next bloke. If I was the chap working the next train and I had some serious grief from a bloke you'd kicked off the train and peed him off in the process, I'd give you merry hell in the messroom next time I saw you. Why the hell do you think it's acceptable to land the next bloke in the proverbial brown stuff, when you get paid the same money as the next bloke, and are perfectly capable of dealing with the matter on board your own train?!:roll:

 

[driver_m]

hm maybe that northern's maximum speed is what 90 mph, 100 at the most and virgins is 125..?

We could do 200mph and still struggle to get a magpie. They are the most annoyingly elusive bird! It would probably be easier to kill a golden eagle than a magpie.

 

[Mintona]

That's the thing - what do I do for a living?!

I can tell you exactly why that TM did that - he didn't want to deal with the issue.:roll: And I'm sorry, but that's just not ****ing good enough. Read what Pumbaa has heard to understand what his own colleagues think of him, and rightly so.
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How many times do I have to say this before some of you, including the Guards on here get it?!

You do not throw somebody off, just to pass the problem onto the next bloke. If I was the chap working the next train and I had some serious grief from a bloke you'd kicked off the train and peed him off in the process, I'd give you merry hell in the messroom next time I saw you. Why the hell do you think it's acceptable to land the next bloke in the proverbial brown stuff, when you get paid the same money as the next bloke, and are perfectly capable of dealing with the matter on board your own train?!:roll:

Disagreed. You sound like the sort of guard who probably tackles drunks on the last train and gets assaulted quite often.

In this example, I'd have chucked him off at Crewe also, and phoned the supervisor there to give a description of the passenger to try and make sure he couldn't board a later train. I suspect that Matt did this as well. I certainly wouldn't be holding up a train for 15/20 minutes costing thousands over a £60 fare. And I also wouldn't want the passenger travelling through to Euston for the BTP to meet us there if they fancy showing up.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Virgin TM at man picc have previously let my sister in law who had accidentally mussed her train with advance ticket board another one. Good customer service if you ask me. Young lady who was clearly confused and in tears and clearly not a fare dodger.

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