Arriva Trains Wales - it’s the final countdown

[Teflon Lettuce]

There does seem to be a perception that some Welsh people are anti-English and use the language as a means of proving some kind of point.

Personally, from the point of view of having spent quite a bit of time in Wales, I can’t claim to have found this at all.

I have picked up a faint scent of animosity in one or two of the “honeypot” locations (eg Llangollen, Bala, Betws-y-coed) however to be honest I can understand this seeing how some of the smug English weekend-break brigade behave.

I’ve less experience of the Cardiff area however so perhaps things are different there.

TBH the only time I have ever encountered a problem was in Aberystwyth one sunday morning... a young man came up and insisted on repeatedly asking me the same thing over and again in Welsh despite me saying I didn't speak Welsh and couldn't understand him... eventually someone told me he wanted to know what time the bus to Bangor was... Apparently {so I was told} people born and bred in Gwynedd can be a bit snobbish about it... and even, according to them that they're the only ones who speak "pure" Welsh

 

[Gareth Marston]

Most definitely. The countdown is currently: four weeks to go...

Oh go on then ....I've seen the TfW logo appear on some internal documents along with the arriva logo.

 

[Waldgrun]

I live in a village in Wales, which is on the English side of Offa's Dyke, the nearest border with England is at the West end of the village, and A roads in 3 directions lead back into England, very little or no Welsh is spoken! Recently I have had to dial 101 a lot (the non emergency Police telephone number) and have had to listen to announcements, in both languages! Some are necessary but some are not, for example, "if you require the options in welsh press the star key" spoken in English! Is not required. All this leads to a long response time! Announcements should be clear and to the point! Political correctness doesn't help! I am learning a little bit of Welsh because both Aldi & Lidi around here, both announce which checkout they are opening next in Welsh first, very useful to beat the long lines!

 

[krus_aragon]

Oh go on then ....I've seen the TfW logo appear on some internal documents along with the arriva logo.

On that note, when I last prowled Llandudno Junction and Bangor stations the signs had been re-stickered, but all the posters were still in Arriva's name.

While I don't expect all the posters to be replaced within the next month, I wonder if any posters with the new branding have been spotted yet.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I live in a village in Wales, which is on the English side of Offa's Dyke, the nearest border with England is at the West end of the village, and A roads in 3 directions lead back into England, very little or no Welsh is spoken! Recently I have had to dial 101 a lot (the non emergency Police telephone number) and have had to listen to announcements, in both languages! Some are necessary but some are not, for example, "if you require the options in welsh press the star key" spoken in English! Is not required. All this leads to a long response time! Announcements should be clear and to the point! Political correctness doesn't help! I am learning a little bit of Welsh because both Aldi & Lidi around here, both announce which checkout they are opening next in Welsh first, very useful to beat the long lines!

the reason why it's in English is so that English speakers know what is being said {in this day of equality and equal rights can you imagine the outcome of having something in Welsh only? lol}

having said that it really does annoy me, even as a pro- Welsh language person, is the way that you have to wait and wait and wait to get to that announcement... to my mind with 101 the correct announcement should be "croeso am 101/ welcome to 101. and then say to press star for options in ENGLISH in both languages... THEN after you have chosen which option get on with all the rest of the mumbo jumbo you have to go through to actually speak to someone!

 

[NoOnesFool]

TBH the only time I have ever encountered a problem was in Aberystwyth one sunday morning... a young man came up and insisted on repeatedly asking me the same thing over and again in Welsh despite me saying I didn't speak Welsh and couldn't understand him... eventually someone told me he wanted to know what time the bus to Bangor was... Apparently {so I was told} people born and bred in Gwynedd can be a bit snobbish about it... and even, according to them that they're the only ones who speak "pure" Welsh

Perhaps he couldn't speak English? I've met many Welsh people online who only speak Welsh and some who can speak basic English but Welsh (Cymraeg) is the first language for many in Wales.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Perhaps he couldn't speak English? I've met many Welsh people online who only speak Welsh and some who can speak basic English but Welsh (Cymraeg) is the first language for many in Wales.

I could understand that concept if he'd been an older generation... but he was a young lad in his early 20's... and I'm pretty sure that even in Gwynedd where all schooling is Welsh medium they are pretty hot in making sure that pupils leave school with at least basic English

 

[mmh]

Perhaps he couldn't speak English? I've met many Welsh people online who only speak Welsh and some who can speak basic English but Welsh (Cymraeg) is the first language for many in Wales.

It is, and many are more comfortable or fluent in Welsh than English, but I'd be suspicious, and I'm as pro-Welsh as you'll find.

Realistically, the only people who won't have enough English to get on a bus are likely to be younger than a teenager, over 90 or have learning difficulties. And a very small subset of those groups, none of which are very likely to be big internet users.

Perhaps I'm too cynical though.

 

[DavidGrain]

Gobowen station, which according to my map is in England, has English and Welsh announcements.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Gobowen station, which according to my map is in England, has English and Welsh announcements.

There's Welsh speaking areas barely 15 minutes away from Gobowen. In fact I would bet more Welsh speakers use Gobowen than I see here at Newtown.

 

[LowLevel]

I once came across a gentleman in Welsh Wales as Welsh as you come. Fluent in the language, Welsh name and very proud of his roots.

However his income was dependent on the tourism industry and as such he greatly resented anyone who was unpleasant towards English speakers. Consequently when someone tried to insist on communicating in Welsh with him he used to pretend to be an English monoglot and refuse to have anything else to do with them. Quite brave for that part of the world!

 

[Stevec101]

Exactly right. The two biggest cities and urban areas in the country and taking in some really wealthy areas enroute means chiltern is a gem of an operator. Take some vision and it could be a real alternative and true competition to the wcml. Track needs an upgrade and some proper intercity trains to add to the fleet of silver sets and it could be great

Chiltern is a different kettle of fish in having some clear, lucrative markets to pursue, that could be served with a realistic level of investment; namely London<>Birmingham and London<>Oxford; both are substantial flows and could be tapped into with relatively modest investment.

ATW isn't really in the same ballpark with the potential markets on its network; it either has the monopoly already, is encumbered with markets far too small a flow to generate a commercial return on investment, both of these, or where the infrastructure investment to satisfy these markets wouldn't come close to washing its face in terms of its financial return.

.

 

[Cardiff123]

Interestingly there's a 'celebrate the end of Arriva' event on FB on Saturday night 13th October. Asking everyone to bring their own bottle and gather at Cardiff Central to throw a party. It' most likely a joke event but I'm not sure what they expect to be different when they go to work on Monday 15th October.

 

[Parallel]

Interestingly there's a 'celebrate the end of Arriva' event on FB on Saturday night 13th October. Asking everyone to bring their own bottle and gather at Cardiff Central to throw a party. It' most likely a joke event but I'm not sure what they expect to be different when they go to work on Monday 15th October.

Exactly, they’re going to dislike the new operator even more - the next year or so look even more bleak for the Wales & Borders franchise. The new franchise will not solve all Wales’ rail problems, especially not in the first few years.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

It'll be amusing when Monday 15th morning comes round, as the trains roll into Cardiff Central seemingly unchanged (if they don't have time to remove or paste over the ATW logos) like SWR's first day that the trains ran as if it were still SWT. "Transport for Wales service to Carmarthen" to be heard then witness an ATW train appear in view! That is if the average public is even aware of the franchise changeover.

 

[Cardiff123]

It'll be amusing when Monday 15th morning comes round, as the trains roll into Cardiff Central seemingly unchanged (if they don't have time to remove or paste over the ATW logos) like SWR's first day that the trains ran as if it were still SWT. "Transport for Wales service to Carmarthen" to be heard then witness an ATW train appear in view! That is if the average public is even aware of the franchise changeover.

All of the trains in Wales are being completely de-branded. Everything will still be in ATW colours but the ATW name and logo will be gone from all trains by 13th October.

Exactly, they’re going to dislike the new operator even more - the next year or so look even more bleak for the Wales & Borders franchise. The new franchise will not solve all Wales’ rail problems, especially not in the first few years.

I don't have much sympathy for Welsh Govt & Transport for Wales on this. Due to the secrecy of the award process, when pressed for details, all Welsh Govt & Ken Skates could do was hype it all up. Problem is, it has been hyped up out of all proportion and after 15 years of stagnation, public expectations are unrealistically high.
What did they expect, when the new franchise was described using every superlative in the English dictionary?
"Transformational, world class, exciting, ambitious, once in a generation, historic, landmark, transforming the network so it's unrecognisable" etc.
When this kind of language has been persistently used for 2 years, of course your average passenger with no knowledge of how the railways work will expect something to change on day one and for there to be massive change by Christmas.

 

[Gareth Marston]

All of the trains in Wales are being completely de-branded. Everything will still be in ATW colours but the ATW name and logo will be gone from all trains by 13th October.



I don't have much sympathy for Welsh Govt & Transport for Wales on this. Due to the secrecy of the award process, when pressed for details, all Welsh Govt & Ken Skates could do was hype it all up. Problem is, it has been hyped up out of all proportion and after 15 years of stagnation, public expectations are unrealistically high.
What did they expect, when the new franchise was described using every superlative in the English dictionary?
"Transformational, world class, exciting, ambitious, once in a generation, historic, landmark, transforming the network so it's unrecognisable" etc.
When this kind of language has been persistently used for 2 years, of course your average passenger with no knowledge of how the railways work will expect something to change on day one and for there to be massive change by Christmas.

Yes they have made a rod for their own back and then will no doubt devote time and effort arguing its not their fault nothing much is happening. Welsh Government has a cultural inability to accept legitimate criticisms even constructive criticism. It will be interesting to see who complains first and what media source runs with it- if we get the same conditions as last autumn and lots of wheel set problems it will be very soon in coming....

I'm told that at least two rolling stock manufactures could have provided a regional DMU sooner than 2022 for the Newport assembled CAF's. However they wouldn't have been assembled in Wales my source imply s that a greater emphasis was placed on "made in Wales" then timescale for improvements in the procurement process.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

All of the trains in Wales are being completely de-branded. Everything will still be in ATW colours but the ATW name and logo will be gone from all trains by 13th October.

You'd be right about the debranding, I forgot as that didn't happen on SWR, however when LM became LNR, there were few trains with "london midland" logos on the first day. It wouldn't surprise me if there are two or three trains still having ATW logos running on rural lines out of the way somewhere on TfW's debut day...

 

[DavidGrain]

As ATW trains had the all over blue livery of Arriva, it is going to take a long time to project any other image. I don't think a decal on the side is going to even be noticeable to a lot of passengers.

 

[PR1Berske]

Going from cyan/blue to black/red is going to take passengers by surprise if they aren't fully aware of the franchise changes!

 

[DavidGrain]

Going from cyan/blue to black/red is going to take passengers by surprise if they aren't fully aware of the franchise changes!

Yes but how quickly can this be done? It has taken 10 months with the change of the London Midland franchise but only now are things moving rapidly as reported on the WMR livery thread on this forum. But then perhaps there will not be the same political mind changing that has been going on in the West Midlands

 

[Cardiff123]

I'd be very surprised if we see Pacers in TfW colours. ATW have just 'refreshed' them internally and is it really worth it for 14 months?

 

[_toommm_]

Any idea what will happen to Gerald?

 

[CardiffKid]

Any idea what will happen to Gerald?

It's had it's logos removed like the other trains.

Gerald should be replaced by the end of 2019.

There is no definite answer regarding which units will be repainted but the only ones currently in use that are scheduled to remain after 1/1/2020 are the 175s, 158s, 153s and 150s.

 

[_toommm_]

It's had it's logos removed like the other trains.

Gerald should be replaced by the end of 2019.

There is no definite answer regarding which units will be repainted but the only ones currently in use that are scheduled to remain after 1/1/2020 are the 175s, 158s, 153s and 150s.

Replaced? As in running with newer coaching stock, or will it be withdrawn...

 

[krus_aragon]

Replaced? As in running with newer coaching stock, or will it be withdrawn...

MkIII coaches (and DVT) replaced with MkIV, and service expanded to three services each way per day (thus extra sets too).

 

[_toommm_]

MkIII coaches (and DVT) replaced with MkIV, and service expanded to three services each way per day (thus extra sets too).

Will there still be the same level of catering in the evening I.e. a three course meal?

 

[CardiffKid]

Will there still be the same level of catering in the evening I.e. a three course meal?

Food in 1st/Business will continue, we don't know what time the trains are yet, so shouldn't speculate on what/how many courses it'll be.

 

[krus_aragon]

We shouldn't speculate, but having run the numbers and done some diagram planning in crayon I'll be expecting a morning, lunchtime, and evening service each way, with full catering on at least two of the three services.

 

[sw1ller]

Any clue as to what will pull/push it yet??