Arriva Trains Wales - it’s the final countdown

[Confused52]

Doesn't help it at all.

Neither does it make it any worse.

Oh it makes it worse on a busy platform since you only get one attempt to hear the version you can understand. So for the non local, i.e. those milling around being unsure it is much worse and they are the ones that delay the despatch!

 

[geoffk]

Living east of Manchester my experience of ATW has been limited but I've found the 175s decent trains to travel on when using the "Club 55" ticket offer on trips to Llandudno, Hereford and Swansea and they have kept the on-board trolley when others like London Midland ditched theirs. Last year's trip to Swansea was disrupted by bad weather but the on-train staff did a good job keeping everyone updated. I wasn't able to return via the Central Wales line but that wasn't ATW's fault! I tried again this year but then the 175s were grounded with wheelset problems so no trains to Manchester at all and I had to abandon the trip.

The company persisted in its desire to get to Manchester Airport and, although there seemed to be few passengers initially, ATW trains I've seen recently on the airport line seem quite well-used (but I've no idea how far folks were travelling).

 

[Cardiff123]

Am i missing something here but how does all this Welsh language angst actually help when an already well loaded two car train pulls into a busy platform? Which is what the vast majority of real passengers are most concerned about.

Oh it makes it worse on a busy platform since you only get one attempt to hear the version you can understand. So for the non local, i.e. those milling around being unsure it is much worse and they are the ones that delay the despatch!

The policy of having English announcements first followed by the Welsh, as is done at Newport, should be adopted at all stations and when the automated announcements come in on trains. Most locals eventually learn what their train's stops are in Welsh for normal automated announcements, but platform alterations are a different story. Unless a human takes over and does the announcement manually, it comes through first in Welsh, and by the time the English is playing the train is already at the new platform and is ready to leave.

Before I get the fury of the Welsh language brigade on me, surely it makes most sense to have announcements in the most commonly spoken and understood language first, followed by the less common language second?

The only reason it's Welsh first and English second at Cardiff Central and Queen St is because the politicians would kick off if it wasn't. In fact it was English only at Queen St for many years with no compliants, until there was a rare occasion when Carwyn Jones was passing through there about 6 years ago and he kicked off. He's probably not been back since.

 

[PHILIPE]

The policy of having English announcements first followed by the Welsh, as is done at Newport, should be adopted at all stations and when the automated announcements come in on trains. Most locals eventually learn what their train's stops are in Welsh for normal automated announcements, but platform alterations are a different story. Unless a human takes over and does the announcement manually, it comes through first in Welsh, and by the time the English is playing the train is already at the new platform and is ready to leave.

Before I get the fury of the Welsh language brigade on me, surely it makes most sense to have announcements in the most commonly spoken and understood language first, followed by the less common language second?

The only reason it's Welsh first and English second at Cardiff Central and Queen St is because the politicians would kick off if it wasn't. In fact it was English only at Queen St for many years with no compliants, until there was a rare occasion when Carwyn Jones was passing through there about 6 years ago and he kicked off. He's probably not been back since.

Before the alterations (I won't call them improvements because of the design) at Newport Welsh preceded English and a frequent happening was that when trains were re-platformed from 2 to 1 the announcement was not triggered until the train (usually a West Wales one) was actually running in. The stampede started when the English was announced but, with Platform 1 being self dispatch, the passengers would see the train pulling out without them. Despite complains to ATW they were reluctant to change the order

 

[ExpressTrain]

Oh it makes it worse on a busy platform since you only get one attempt to hear the version you can understand. So for the non local, i.e. those milling around being unsure it is much worse and they are the ones that delay the despatch!

The policy of having English announcements first followed by the Welsh, as is done at Newport, should be adopted at all stations and when the automated announcements come in on trains. Most locals eventually learn what their train's stops are in Welsh for normal automated announcements, but platform alterations are a different story. Unless a human takes over and does the announcement manually, it comes through first in Welsh, and by the time the English is playing the train is already at the new platform and is ready to leave.

Before I get the fury of the Welsh language brigade on me, surely it makes most sense to have announcements in the most commonly spoken and understood language first, followed by the less common language second?

Some of the Arriva Trains Wales announcements are ridiculous lengths, which makes them pointless. They have to mention the time, platform number, all of the calling points, repeat the request stops and then remind us to mind the gap in both Welsh then English! For the Heart of Wales line or Cambrian line these announcements must take a few minutes. Rearranging the order of Welsh/English still doesn't detract from the length; there must be a way to shorten them. For starters they could omit the "mind the gap" messages since this seems fairly common sense, possibly also combining the Welsh and English rather than playing one after the other. Therefore stations with only English names need not be repeated. It should shorten the announcements whilst keeping the Welsh language supporters happy.

 

[PR1Berske]

Stryd Pisgwydd actually.

That's a species of butterfly, though. Are you sure?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Before I get the fury of the Welsh language brigade on me, surely it makes most sense to have announcements in the most commonly spoken and understood language first, followed by the less common language second?

By that calculation then the announcements at many stns in Birmingham and in Bradford/ Leeds and quite a few other towns and cities in Britain should be in Urdu.... Stamford Hill/ Tottenham Hale in Yiddish...

Simple fact is Wales is a bi-lingual country... and there is a simple formula... if it is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales then the English comes first.. if the majority of the LOCAL population is Welsh speaking then the Welsh comes first... after all you wouldn't go to the Costa del Sol and expect the trains there to make English announcements first {or exclusively} on the basis that "it's the language understood by most... and most of the strangers in the area are English speaking would you?

The only reason it's Welsh first and English second at Cardiff Central and Queen St is because the politicians would kick off if it wasn't. In fact it was English only at Queen St for many years with no compliants, until there was a rare occasion when Carwyn Jones was passing through there about 6 years ago and he kicked off. He's probably not been back since.

or maybe it's Welsh first at those 2 stns because they are the 2 main stns in Cardiff.... which happens to be the capital of Wales and has it's own language Welsh

 

[Parallel]

or maybe it's Welsh first at those 2 stns because they are the 2 main stns in Cardiff.... which happens to be the capital of Wales and has it's own language Welsh

Well, the problem with Q St originally was that the announcements were global, and all trains except the Bay shuttle used the island platform, so if Welsh and English was used, it would have been impossible to announce all services. However when two more platforms were brought into use, the announcements were zoned by platform so Welsh and English are now played (& for approaching trains only). The main problem now is the island platform as the announcements from each face frequently talk over the top of each other.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One of the reasons behind the overwhelming message that the Welsh Government got about the new franchise needing more staff was the problems with bilingual announcements as outlined above. People want a staff member to ask...not an automated bilingual announcement.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I see the usual, the railways should be for people not for profit brigade are jumping on this.

Anyone know/remember what BR did?

FWIW, two and a bit years ago I lost my mobile on a Valley Lines train, the day after I recovered it from Cardiff Central after speaking to a guard who advised me, anything found during the day ended up in Cardiff before going to Newport for processing. Didn't pay anything for it. Don't know if that's the norm or if I was lucky/the dispatcher was feeling kind etc.

Procedure is to keep stuff for a week at where its handed in Depot/Booking Office/Customer Help point and then send it Newport. On many occasions stuff has turned up at Machynlleth and we've had it dropped off by a Conductor here at Newtown and its been reunited with its owner. The vast majority are really grateful but occasionally you get someone who acts like you've killed a close relative of theirs when your doing them a massive favour...

 

[Honest Ross]

Those moaning about Welsh being spoken in Wales presumably complain that they speak French in France too.

 

[Cardiff123]

Simple fact is Wales is a bi-lingual country... and there is a simple formula... if it is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales then the English comes first.. if the majority of the LOCAL population is Welsh speaking then the Welsh comes first

or maybe it's Welsh first at those 2 stns because they are the 2 main stns in Cardiff.... which happens to be the capital of Wales and has it's own language Welsh

Very few people in Cardiff have Welsh as their first language. The further west and north you go more Welsh is spoken but in the cities and towns of the south east very little Welsh is spoken.
So going by the first part of your post, English should be first in Cardiff, regardless of the fact it's the Welsh capital.

I knew I'd get this kind of reaction. The railway is an environment where passengers get one, or two chances if they are lucky to digest information. This is more important at stations where announcements can contain crucial information about where passengers need to be. Having a two minute announcement in Welsh, when no one on the platform can understand it, then followed by the English, when the train is already on a new platform and ready to leave and results in a stampede down the stairs to get to the new platform as they've realised too late, is not best practice.
Regardless of whether Cardiff is the capital of Wales or not, the most commonly spoken language should be announced there first, which however much the nationalists and Welsh language enthusiasts dislike it, is English.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Very few people in Cardiff have Welsh as their first language. The further west and north you go more Welsh is spoken but in the cities and towns of the south east very little Welsh is spoken.
So going by the first part of your post, English should be first in Cardiff, regardless of the fact it's the Welsh capital.

I knew I'd get this kind of reaction. The railway is an environment where passengers get one, or two chances if they are lucky to digest information. This is more important at stations where announcements can contain crucial information about where passengers need to be. Having a two minute announcement in Welsh, when no one on the platform can understand it, then followed by the English, when the train is already on a new platform and ready to leave and results in a stampede down the stairs to get to the new platform as they've realised too late, is not best practice.
Regardless of whether Cardiff is the capital of Wales or not, the most commonly spoken language should be announced there first, which however much the nationalists and Welsh language enthusiasts dislike it, is English.

Then considering that there are huge numbers of British ex-pats on the Costa del Sol perhaps you should write to RENFE and insist English is spoken first at stns such as Torremelinos, Fuengerola etc... but of course you know the answer to that don't you? when in Spain do it like the spanish.

Seriously I really do not get this problem that people have with Welsh being spoken in Wales... I wonder if it's got some sort of link to the fact that it is a constant reminder to the English that while they conquered the land after 800 yrs it is quite evident that you will never conquer the people...

 

[krus_aragon]

Regardless of whether Cardiff is the capital of Wales or not, the most commonly spoken language should be announced there first, which however much the nationalists and Welsh language enthusiasts dislike it, is English.

There's something to be said for consistency at all stations, similar to which language is first on road signs (Was Local Authority's choice, now a consistent Welsh-first policy nationwide).

The total number of Welsh speakers in Cardiff is higher than many regions of Wales, it's just that because of the large population there they form a relatively small proportion of the total. At the 2011 census, there were 37,000 in Cardiff able to speak Welsh, 31,000 in Conwy and 39,000 on Anglesey.

I do however concede that the manner in which bilingual announcements are designed could do with improvement. Long message in one language followed by long message in another isn't a good method.

 

[craigybagel]

Then considering that there are huge numbers of British ex-pats on the Costa del Sol perhaps you should write to RENFE and insist English is spoken first at stns such as Torremelinos, Fuengerola etc... but of course you know the answer to that don't you? when in Spain do it like the spanish.

Seriously I really do not get this problem that people have with Welsh being spoken in Wales... I wonder if it's got some sort of link to the fact that it is a constant reminder to the English that while they conquered the land after 800 yrs it is quite evident that you will never conquer the people...

When in Wales do it like the Welsh -surely then you should speak in English since that's what the vast majority of them in Cardiff do?!

(And I'm speaking as a fellow Celt, "oppressed by the evil English", who would also find it very stupid if the announcements at the stations in my own home town were made in the traditional native language first and then English when most people there would only understand the latter).

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Basically it's our country our rules, if the English don't like it tough. Our language which we are proud of rightly comes first.

As long as announcements are made in both languages I really don't see the issue there are plenty of PIS screens all over stations these days to make announcements a bonus extra rather than essential anyway. English people around the world moan and complain if things aren't in English for them, complain if breakfasts on holiday don't serve bacon, that the food is all foreign, signs are all in the native language how are they supposed to understand. These are all actual complaints I have heard while travelling. The English seem to have this sense of entitlement and the truth is they don't.

Deal with it, nothing is changing in Wales anytime soon. Sorry, well not sorry really.

 

[PR1Berske]

Whenever the Welsh language comes up on threads, I'm amazed by how quicky things turn nasty. Why, or how, does the language have this effect?!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Whenever the Welsh language comes up on threads, I'm amazed by how quicky things turn nasty. Why, or how, does the language have this effect?!

Because many English on here fail to understand that Wales is an actual country with an actual language older than English.

 

[bramling]

Then considering that there are huge numbers of British ex-pats on the Costa del Sol perhaps you should write to RENFE and insist English is spoken first at stns such as Torremelinos, Fuengerola etc... but of course you know the answer to that don't you? when in Spain do it like the spanish.

Seriously I really do not get this problem that people have with Welsh being spoken in Wales... I wonder if it's got some sort of link to the fact that it is a constant reminder to the English that while they conquered the land after 800 yrs it is quite evident that you will never conquer the people...

I don’t think most English people care what language comes first in Wales, apart from those round the borders areas who might be affected on a day-to-day basis.

The feeling I get is it seems to be more a some Welsh people versus other Welsh people issue.

 

[PR1Berske]

Because many English on here fail to understand that Wales is an actual country with an actual language older than English.

This isn't the only forum I visit where it becomes such an animated, angry discussion, it baffles me. (I got no further than counting to ten and all that hoffi coffi stuff, I comment only as an observer!)

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

I do however concede that the manner in which bilingual announcements are designed could do with improvement. Long message in one language followed by long message in another isn't a good method.

Perhaps it would help if not all stations where a train stops were announced. Especially at Queen Street, trains have quite regular stopping patterns and it could still be shown on the displays. In a similar style to these announcements at Brussels Central station (Dutch & French), an announcement could be something like this:

The next train from platform 4 will be the 13:35 service to Bargoed via Llanishen, Caerphilly and Ystrad Mynach. Mae’r trên nesaf o blatfform 4 bydd y gwasanaeth 13:35 i Fargoed trwy Lanisien, Caerffili ac Ystrad Mynach.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don’t think most English people care what language comes first in Wales, apart from those round the borders areas who might be affected on a day-to-day basis.

The feeling I get is it seems to be more a some Welsh people versus other Welsh people issue.

well, speaking as an English person with Welsh heritage who moved to a Welsh speaking area I can assure you that, unless you're being bloody minded you soon learn the key phrases you need to listen out for... eg if you're at a stn waiting for a train to Carmarthen and you hear an announcement start "y nesaf tren am Gaerfyrddin... you will realise that the announcement is for you... even if you don't understand the rest of the message you are then alerted and will look at the screens to check if there has been any change.

Seriously though, when working I've actually had this conversation:

ME: Bore da, shw mae
PASSENGER: I don't speak Welsh
ME: I just said good morning, welcome
PASSENGER: well that's just damn well rude. I don't speak Welsh
ME: well I didn't know that, and most of my passengers do speak at least a little bit
PASSENGER: Don't care.. you should speak in English

There was also another incident widely reported a couple of yrs ago where an asian lady on a bus was told that "you're in England now. Speak English" to which another passenger replied "actually she's speaking Welsh. You're in Wales and we speak Welsh!"

 

[Robertj21a]

Just don't have any announcements at all, they're fairly useless anyway. Just use the screens.

 

[Cardiff123]

It is sad how quickly any mention of the Welsh language on forums such as this quickly turns very nasty. And it's also a common theme which side the nastiness comes from.

Seriously I really do not get this problem that people have with Welsh being spoken in Wales... I wonder if it's got some sort of link to the fact that it is a constant reminder to the English that while they conquered the land after 800 yrs it is quite evident that you will never conquer the people...

Please point me to where I said I have a problem with Welsh being spoken in Wales and in your interpretation of my posts, where I said I want Welsh banned.

Basically it's our country our rules, if the English don't like it tough. Our language which we are proud of rightly comes first.
Deal with it, nothing is changing in Wales anytime soon. Sorry, well not sorry really.

I assume this post is directed at me as an 'English' person. So let's look at the facts.
I am Welsh. I was born in Wales. I have lived in Wales my entire life. My family have lived in Wales for generations. My father's side of the family come from the south Wales Valleys. But because I was not educated in Welsh and cannot speak Welsh other than a few phrases, in your eyes I am 'English' and do not belong in Wales?

I am a pragmatist. Let's go back to the topic in Q here which is how best to get crucial information to passengers via announcements at stations. Teflon Lettuce, You said yourself that:

Simple fact is Wales is a bi-lingual country... and there is a simple formula... if it is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales then the English comes first.. if the majority of the LOCAL population is Welsh speaking then the Welsh comes first...

Cardiff and south east Wales in general, is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales, therefore English announcements should come there first. Or do you disagree with yourself?
Thankfully, station staff realise in times of disruption or when there are platform alterations it's important that information is passed to passengers as quickly as possible, esp on Valleys platforms where trains come thick and fast, so staff override the automated announcements and just manually announce everything.

Just don't have any announcements at all, they're fairly useless anyway. Just use the screens.

And then you open another flashpoint.....should PIS screens be in English or Welsh? How does that cater for blind or partially sighted people? Or people glued to their phones?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is sad how quickly any mention of the Welsh language on forums such as this quickly turns very nasty. And it's also a common theme which side the nastiness comes from.


Please point me to where I said I have a problem with Welsh being spoken in Wales and in your interpretation of my posts, where I said I want Welsh banned.

I didn't say you had... my comment was aimed at the vitriol that, as you yourself acknowledge, starts to flow when the Welsh language being used in Wales is mentioned

I am a pragmatist. Let's go back to the topic in Q here which is how best to get crucial information to passengers via announcements at stations. Teflon Lettuce, You said yourself that:

Cardiff is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales, therefore English announcements should come there first. Or do you disagree with yourself?

I also said:

or maybe it's Welsh first at those 2 stns [Cardiff Central and Queen Street] because they are the 2 main stns in Cardiff.... which happens to be the capital of Wales and has it's own language Welsh

I never said whether I agree or disagree with that policy!

And then you open another flashpoint.....should PIS screens be in English or Welsh? How does that cater for hard of hearing or deaf people? Or people glued to their phones?

Sorry to nit-pick, but if announcements were scrapped and there were only PIS screens it wouldn't be the deaf/ hard of hearing that would have a problem... it's be the blind and visually impaired

 

[Cardiff123]

Sorry to nit-pick, but if announcements were scrapped and there were only PIS screens it wouldn't be the deaf/ hard of hearing that would have a problem... it's be the blind and visually impaired

Yes, I've just realised that and edited my post.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If announcements are done away with in favour of PIS screens, stressful this may be, I think we could manage as we would be looking at the screens at major London stations (Waterloo for example can be too noisy for announcements to be heard) also we do the same at airports waiting for the gate number to come up.

Smartphone addicts can always lift up their phones and look back & forth at the screens and their phones at the same time.

 

[Robertj21a]

It is sad how quickly any mention of the Welsh language on forums such as this quickly turns very nasty. And it's also a common theme which side the nastiness comes from.


Please point me to where I said I have a problem with Welsh being spoken in Wales and in your interpretation of my posts, where I said I want Welsh banned.



I assume this post is directed at me as an 'English' person. So let's look at the facts.
I am Welsh. I was born in Wales. I have lived in Wales my entire life. My family have lived in Wales for generations. My father's side of the family come from the south Wales Valleys. But because I was not educated in Welsh and cannot speak Welsh other than a few phrases, in your eyes I am 'English' and do not belong in Wales?

I am a pragmatist. Let's go back to the topic in Q here which is how best to get crucial information to passengers via announcements at stations. Teflon Lettuce, You said yourself that:

Cardiff and south east Wales in general, is a predominantly English speaking part of Wales, therefore English announcements should come there first. Or do you disagree with yourself?
Thankfully, station staff realise in times of disruption or when there are platform alterations it's important that information is passed to passengers as quickly as possible, esp on Valleys platforms where trains come thick and fast, so staff override the automated announcements and just manually announce everything.


And then you open another flashpoint.....should PIS screens be in English or Welsh? How does that cater for blind or partially sighted people? Or people glued to their phones?

(Edit)......


And then you open another flashpoint.....should PIS screens be in English or Welsh? How does that cater for blind or partially sighted people? Or people glued to their phones?

How do they cope in other places where announcements are not made ?

In any event, can we please get back to the original question, not these side issues.

 

[krus_aragon]

Most definitely. The countdown is currently: four weeks to go...

 

[bramling]

well, speaking as an English person with Welsh heritage who moved to a Welsh speaking area I can assure you that, unless you're being bloody minded you soon learn the key phrases you need to listen out for... eg if you're at a stn waiting for a train to Carmarthen and you hear an announcement start "y nesaf tren am Gaerfyrddin... you will realise that the announcement is for you... even if you don't understand the rest of the message you are then alerted and will look at the screens to check if there has been any change.

Seriously though, when working I've actually had this conversation:

ME: Bore da, shw mae
PASSENGER: I don't speak Welsh
ME: I just said good morning, welcome
PASSENGER: well that's just damn well rude. I don't speak Welsh
ME: well I didn't know that, and most of my passengers do speak at least a little bit
PASSENGER: Don't care.. you should speak in English

There was also another incident widely reported a couple of yrs ago where an asian lady on a bus was told that "you're in England now. Speak English" to which another passenger replied "actually she's speaking Welsh. You're in Wales and we speak Welsh!"

There does seem to be a perception that some Welsh people are anti-English and use the language as a means of proving some kind of point.

Personally, from the point of view of having spent quite a bit of time in Wales, I can’t claim to have found this at all.

I have picked up a faint scent of animosity in one or two of the “honeypot” locations (eg Llangollen, Bala, Betws-y-coed) however to be honest I can understand this seeing how some of the smug English weekend-break brigade behave.

I’ve less experience of the Cardiff area however so perhaps things are different there.