365517,New Livery.

[Eagle]

Well a few of the continental operators are adopting it as good practice - SNCF's new livery has contrast doors, as does most new Swiss Stock, SNCB and DB Regio (not Intercity) seem to be doing so aswell

It seems that British railway practice is ahead of the game in this respect (like it was with yellow front ends).

 

[SqUaShIe P]

I half like it. Anyone know if it will be the same/similar liveries for TPE and GW (If First retain them)?
I know we all hear lots of rumours about who might get what franchise next but reading between the lines a little, this had made me think it wouldnt be hard to turn The EC livery into this new First livery

 

[traji00]

I half like it. Anyone know if it will be the same/similar liveries for TPE and GW (If First retain them)?
I know we all hear lots of rumours about who might get what franchise next but reading between the lines a little, this had made me think it wouldnt be hard to turn The EC livery into this new First livery

Willing to be corrected, but I don't think the livery is FirstGroup's - I believe it's set by the DfT.

 

[A-driver]

Of note is that the image at the top uses the same design and colours as (apparently) planned for the new class 700s:

... I wonder if these will also use the slightly darker colours referred to above.

The grey in the real thing is far, far lighter.

As for first group livery, this is just an undercoat livery and nothing at all to do with first. Infact most rumours at work are that first have lost the FCC franchise but are very strong contenders for EC franchise.

The new franchise holder will be allowed a stripe and their name over the grey livery. The 365 has the FCC logo and working in the center of each coach under the windows but that is all the mention of first on it.

 

[Eagle]

Infact most rumours at work are that first have lost the FCC franchise but are very strong contenders for EC franchise.

I wouldn't trust those rumours. The bid submissions deadline for those two haven't even passed; the DfT won't be looking at the bids for a while yet.

 

[A-driver]

I wouldn't trust those rumours. The bid submissions deadline for those two haven't even passed; the DfT won't be looking at the bids for a while yet.

I don't go with rumours but I can assure you that things have dramatically changed at FCC past few weeks. Absolutely no money is being spent anymore. Ordering kit and uniform is near impossible, I think they are at the 'get the last few pennies out now' stage at the moment.

 

[MCR247]

Surely that doesn't necessarily mean that they've lost the franchise? Only that there is no guarantee that they'll win it again and so don't want to waste money?

 

[A-driver]

Surely that doesn't necessarily mean that they've lost the franchise? Only that there is no guarantee that they'll win it again and so don't want to waste money?

True, but there is certainly a strong atmosphere of defeat and almost everyone in management is saying it seems they have lost it.

Of course it's just rumour and speculation but not a surprise.

 

[Skimble19]

I don't go with rumours but I can assure you that things have dramatically changed at FCC past few weeks. Absolutely no money is being spent anymore. Ordering kit and uniform is near impossible, I think they are at the 'get the last few pennies out now' stage at the moment.

Uniform may of course be down to supplier issues, don't forget... I know I've certainly heard DX have been having problems keeping certain items in stock lately.

 

[cj_1985]

I don't go with rumours but I can assure you that things have dramatically changed at FCC past few weeks. Absolutely no money is being spent anymore. Ordering kit and uniform is near impossible, I think they are at the 'get the last few pennies out now' stage at the moment.

Could be due to the "Franchise" not actually being a franchise at the moment, the recent (march) extension transfered the operation to a "Management Contract" which means much less income for the operator, with them only receiving an agreed fee to maintain services and fulfil any requirements ie repaints, reforms etc. Would explain why a plain livery has been applied to the 365 instead of a fresh coat for First Group blue.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't the closing date Christmas Eve? I doubt the tenders have been opened yet, so surely no decision has been made at all. Unless it's somehow failed to get through the very first stage, in which case it would suggest a major mistake or oversight in the bid?

And if there's any rumours going around based on any facts, i.e. someone has heard something 'from the inside'- then there could be a lot of trouble ahead for FCC, the DfT or even individual members of staff talking about it as anything more than gossip.

If FCC itself is pretty sure it put in a poor bid and will lose, or wasn't actually that bothered about keeping it, even that should be kept pretty quiet as I'm sure the shareholders won't want news like that leaking out. To be honest, it would have been better not to bid had that been the case.

After the WCML fiasco, there has been plenty of speculation that the DfT might seek to compensate First by giving it another franchise - but that would of course be totally illegal and drop the DfT in even more trouble. It must be based on the bid and nothing else.

I can see that given the requirements for the new TSGN franchise, it's going to be potentially quite tough.. and we've all speculated about the likely problems ahead with delays through the core. Maybe First isn't actually bothered about getting it and put in a weak bid - as many businesses do when speculatively bidding for things they're not fussed about winning either way. Sadly something many companies suffer when the likes of Serco bid for almost everything (nb. I don't actually mean Serco specifically), but often fail to even read the tenders properly and are quickly rejected. Despite the quick elimination, someone has to go through them and that wastes time and money (my dad having had to do this numerous times for companies bidding for servicing contracts for major housing associations).

I'd hope at this stage that nothing is known at all and, as I said, it's merely gossip or just the stuff kids used to do just after taking exams - preparing for a possible defeat by playing things down in advance. Then going on to do very well.

 

[hwl]

I wouldn't trust those rumours. The bid submissions deadline for those two haven't even passed; the DfT won't be looking at the bids for a while yet.

Wasn't the TSGN franchise deadline noon on 24th December?

FCC may know that some of the other bidders might have offered far more in the way of items that win "bonus points" under the criteria. An example might be new Gatex Stock vs refurb or quality of CVs for staff overseeing the introduction of new rolling stock (Southern 377s (including FCCs!) and MTR 378s being stronger than FCC).

The bidders will have been asking lots of questions so there will be a number of people in the rail industry with a very good comparative knowledge of parts of the bids...

As TSGN is more of a management contract that traditional franchise aggressive financial assumptions a la WCML bids won't work...

 

[ungreat]

Pics of the unit

 

[MCR247]

The front looks terrible

 

[Eagle]

Although the contrast issue seems to be fine.

Have the name stickers not been applied yet (or they just out of shot in all those pictures)?

 

[ungreat]

They are on there. Middle of coaches.Zoom the pic and you can just see them

 

[bramling]

Pics of the unit

The interior is awful to be honest. Carpets gone, and why have they changed the seating layout? Given the nature of the services these trains operate, the table seats are always popular, the old layout gets the balance roughly 50/50 which is about right to please everyone.

As a regular user of these trains since they entered service, this 'upgrade' has changed the feel of from a comfortable express layout ideally suited for the routes they operate, to a nasty inner suburban train.

I'm sure passengers from Kings Lynn will not be pleased at the prospect of a 2-hour journey in this new environment!

One hopes these thoughts get fed back via FCC before any more trains get this treatment.

 

[317666]

It's about time these units were refreshed, some of them are in a pretty dire state. I'm all for higher seated capacity, knowing how overcrowded they are at times, provided that legroom isn't sacrificed as I'm nearly 6ft 4in.

 

[Skimble19]

Good god. That's exactly what I was hoping it *wouldn't* look like!! Removal of table seats serves no purpose at all, the new colour for the grab rails etc. is far too bright and the whole thing just looks.... cheap.

Not impressed by the cab front either to be honest.

Thank you for the pics ungreat.

 

[CP165]

Carpets gone

I think there are new carpets, but they are protected by a plastic film in the photo

I have to say I thought it was going to look a lot smarter than it actually does, but I do quite like it and it looks much more professional than the FCC livery

 

[hwl]

Removal of table seats serves no purpose at all, the new colour for the grab rails etc. is far too bright and the whole thing just looks.... cheap.

Fewer tables = more seats (and no feet on seats!), more seats is a pretty big purpose surely?
Grab rail colours in general are now orientated around high contrast for the visually impaired (including colour blind).

 

[ModernRailways]

Doesn't look too bad to me.

The seats appear to be just right. Also, this may just be the one carriage which has seating like this, other carriages may have a different layout.

My only problem with the front is the yellow takes up too much. I'm sure over time it won't look as bad and it's just because we're used to seeing them a bit more scruffy.

 

[Katada]

Doesn't look too bad to me.

The seats appear to be just right. Also, this may just be the one carriage which has seating like this, other carriages may have a different layout.

My only problem with the front is the yellow takes up too much. I'm sure over time it won't look as bad and it's just because we're used to seeing them a bit more scruffy.

Looks like they haven't finished the front ends yet.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The livery looks like a reworked 21st centry version of the old Regional Railways (Provincial) livery.

 

[fgwrich]

Good god. That's exactly what I was hoping it *wouldn't* look like!! Removal of table seats serves no purpose at all, the new colour for the grab rails etc. is far too bright and the whole thing just looks.... cheap.

Not impressed by the cab front either to be honest.

Thank you for the pics ungreat.

Completely agree. That interior also strikes me as attempting to appear more like a cheap version of Network South East as well (just imagine all those blue and purple lines on the moquette)! Front looks pretty awful, livery looks drab and the interior seems cheap already. Welcome to DfT specification?

Mind you, it wont just be the Kings Lynn passengers who will get their chance to air their views on the 365s - Don't forget the First Class area will get the treatment too, the same First Class area as used at least twice a year by HRH Queen Elizabeth. Will one be pleased with this refurbishment or not amused?

 

[jon0844]

I wish they'd found a better colour for the grab rails, but otherwise it's not too radical a change on the inside.

The exterior though - much whiter than I thought and will no doubt look as filthy as the National Express liveried trains after a few minutes out in service.

 

[Katada]

The front ends on these really do have stupid grins. Gets worse the more I look. What were they thinking? Cheer up those unhappy commuters...

 

[Royston Vasey]

Excellent trains, nicely refurbished. Have they reduced the number of tables? They're fairly pointless anyway and barely used by the average 365 commuter

 

[Skimble19]

Should point out reducing the number of tables has no effect at all on the amount of seats unless leg room has been reduced, and it doesn't look like it has been... Unless I'm missing something?

 

[hwl]

Should point out reducing the number of tables has no effect at all on the amount of seats unless leg room has been reduced, and it doesn't look like it has been... Unless I'm missing something?

You can get more seats in the same space with Airline style layout (particularly with angled seat backs), think of the dead space between the seat backs with an adjacent table layout which is used for a few bins or luggage. If you eliminate about 3 dead spaces you have enough room for another row of seats.