22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not being very much au fait with the various time period slippages for electrification in the normal areas of the Class 185 units, would it be correct to say that those units will be required in those areas for much longer than originally envisaged?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not being very much au fait with the various time period slippages for electrification in the normal areas of the Class 185 units, would it be correct to say that those units will be required in those areas for much longer than originally envisaged?

No. Hitachi bi-mode AT300 units, CAF LHCS with Vossloh Class 68 diesel haulage and CAF EMU stock has been ordered which will replace the Class 185 units on TransPennine routes prior to electrification completion.

 

[northwichcat]

27 extra seats for each 3 coach 185, 9 of which would need to be first class, is what is required to get an exact match with the 159's, which I would guess would be a fairly tall ask.

Although using some (say on the contra flow peak services and/or off peak services) to free up 159's to swap with 2 coach 158's to provide extra capacity elsewhere could be a solution.

I didn't mean the seating capacity of a 3 car 185 could be made to match a 3 car 159 but that more seats could be added to the 185s and you could add perch or fold down seats near the doors for those only doing short hops, as SWT have done on other units they have.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would be better finding an EMU from somewhere than using a DMU on an electrified branch. Give one of the depots a couple of 319s as depot "pets" or something.

That would just create a microfleet for no good reason

 

[smiffy9373]

Just curious as to why the 185s can't run at MU speeds. Surely they are a multiple unit?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Shoehorning the 185s into the SWT franchise seems a little bit convoluted from what I've read. Is it possible instead that they could replace the whole 158/159 fleet with Stadler bi-modes? Then there can be one basic train design (in differing lengths) capable of running to London under electric power (inc AC, when available) and operating the various unelectrified regional routes.

With these extra orders of self-powered units the outcome could be that the BR DMUs are scrapped closer to their original end of life, rather than being kept going for decades to come. The 185s would end up on whatever routes which don't have great Sprinter differentials and would benefit from fast acceleration and top speed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just curious as to why the 185s can't run at MU speeds. Surely they are a multiple unit?

They're too heavy, so put more strain on the track and structures.

 

[PHILIPE]

Shoehorning the 185s into the SWT franchise seems a little bit convoluted from what I've read. Is it possible instead that they could replace the whole 158/159 fleet with Stadler bi-modes? Then there can be one basic train design (in differing lengths) capable of running to London under electric power (inc AC, when available) and operating the various unelectrified regional routes.

With these extra orders of self-powered units the outcome could be that the BR DMUs are scrapped closer to their original end of life, rather than being kept going for decades to come. The 185s would end up on whatever routes which don't have great Sprinter differentials and would benefit from fast acceleration and top speed.

This is a post I have recently put onto another thread re 185 future in reply to a similar suggestion

TPE 185s could never go to SWT. They have their own dedicated Maintenance Depot owned by Siemens at Ardwick (Manchester) so they will have to stay somewhere where Manchester is easily accessible

 

[jopsuk]

Just curious as to why the 185s can't run at MU speeds. Surely they are a multiple unit?

MU speeds exist because generally MU cars are significantly lighter than locomotives - though obviously heavier than unpowered carriages- and hence cause less water and put less impact on structures at speed. But the 185s are so lardy they're over the maximum axle loading for that classification

 

[turboslug]

It wouldnt surprise me in long run if TPE keep the remaining 185s & they end up with an extra route, they were only keeping 28 units but that has gone up, i know part of franchise spec included another route in future

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No. Hitachi bi-mode AT300 units, CAF LHCS with Vossloh Class 68 diesel haulage and CAF EMU stock has been ordered which will replace the Class 185 units on TransPennine routes prior to electrification completion.

Thank you for updating me on that matter. I understand that the former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route from Manchester to Leeds, via Hebden Bridge, is already used by the Class 185 units on diversion routes, so noting the electrification of that route appears to be in the distant future, why cannot the Class 185 units which are ideal for the Trans-Pennine climbs, be used on that line to replace the currently used rolling stock. The existing Siemens depot at Ardwick is ideally situated.

 

[northwichcat]

It wouldnt surprise me in long run if TPE keep the remaining 185s & they end up with an extra route, they were only keeping 28 units but that has gone up, i know part of franchise spec included another route in future

29 x 185s are keeping. The consultation asked for opinions about splitting Liverpool to Norwich at Nottingham and moving the western part to TPE but DfT said after consideration of the responses the route will remain as it is with EMT for now. The consultation also asked about South TPE being changed to Manchester Airport to Doncaster to Hull with Doncaster to Cleethorpes going to Northern but again that option wasn't taken forward.

The options which were put forward to bidders and First chose to include (extending North TPE to Edinburgh and running Liverpool to Glasgow services) will be provided using new build trains.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Thank you for updating me on that matter. I understand that the former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route from Manchester to Leeds, via Hebden Bridge, is already used by the Class 185 units on diversion routes, so noting the electrification of that route appears to be in the distant future, why cannot the Class 185 units which are ideal for the Trans-Pennine climbs, be used on that line to replace the currently used rolling stock. The existing Siemens depot at Ardwick is ideally situated.

The route is to receive new CAF Civity DMU stock, presumably the leasing, track access or other operational costs for the Siemens Desiro stock was too high, and/or operational considerations prevented the use of just 22 units, perhaps if the full fleet had been released the Northern DMU order would have been different/non existent (with TPE ordering new DMU stock instead).

 

[Haydn1971]

How's the EMT franchise direct award and renewal fit with the removal of the 185s from TPE ? Given the comment above about maintenance in Manchester, plus the clearance already in place for Sheffield to Liverpool, plus the numbers being just right for providing Notttingham-Liverpool, I can't see any other logical outcome - but then when has logic ever come franchising decisions

 

[northwichcat]

The route is to receive new CAF Civity DMU stock, presumably the leasing, track access or other operational costs for the Siemens Desiro stock was too high, and/or operational considerations prevented the use of just 22 units, perhaps if the full fleet had been released the Northern DMU order would have been different/non existent (with TPE ordering new DMU stock instead).

Originally DfT instructed Northern bidders that they were only allowed to take on released 15xs or 17xs. With the TPE award being made at the same time Arriva wouldn't have known about the 185s being released unless DfT had chose to tell them as well as telling them they can revise their plans to include the use of 185s.

 

[superkev]

With all that power underfloor. I can't help thinking the S and C or scottish hills. There's allways the remaining diesel powered outpost in London (chiltern).
K

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What routes (anywhere in the UK) have a similar profile (gradients, speed limits, etc) to the routes that the 185s are currently used on?

 

[northwichcat]

What routes (anywhere in the UK) have a similar profile (gradients, speed limits, etc) to the routes that the 185s are currently used on?

The 185s are used on some long routes where one part of the route can be quite different to the other. Some parts a 156 could match 185 timings, on others a 156 would be considerably slower.

 

[Monty]

This is a post I have recently put onto another thread re 185 future in reply to a similar suggestion

TPE 185s could never go to SWT. They have their own dedicated Maintenance Depot owned by Siemens at Ardwick (Manchester) so they will have to stay somewhere where Manchester is easily accessible

That's not really much of a barrier considering Siemens hace a maintenance depot at Northam near Southampton that could probaby be adapted to accommodate the class. Salisbury deport could be used as a location by Siemens much in the same way as Strawberry Hill. SWT have a very close working relationship this Siemens Rail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What routes (anywhere in the UK) have a similar profile (gradients, speed limits, etc) to the routes that the 185s are currently used on?

The Devon banks (Exeter-Plymouth) is the route usually mentioned.
Calder Valley, S&C, Highland, West Highland, Stranraer, Cambrian also come to mind, as well as Marches and Exeter via Yeovil.
Some of these have technical restrictions which don't help (eg ETCS on the Cambrian), and most of them have their future agreed anyway.

It's interesting that the rather heavy classes 175, 180 and 22x can run at HST differentials, while the not-much-heavier 185s can't.
The weight of a 185 car is very similar to that of a 221 (56t).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The issue is not so much HST differentials but Sprinter or MU differentials. 22x can use the former but not the latter, as can 180s. I was under the impression that HST differentials WERE available to 185s too- just not SP/MU speeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The issue is not so much HST differentials but Sprinter or MU differentials. 22x can use the former but not the latter, as can 180s. I was under the impression that HST differentials WERE available to 185s too- just not SP/MU speeds.

Well the SA section SP omits 185 from the HST list, and then specifically says 185s may not use MU/DMU speeds.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Well the SA section SP omits 185 from the HST list, and then specifically says 185s may not use MU/DMU speeds.

It's a braking curve issue if I remember correctly, they're just a bit too heavy and slip outside the HST braking curve. HSTs also slip outside their own braking curve when short formed (2+2 is line speed, 2+3/2+4 is MU/DMU differential and 2+5 and above is HST, also from memory).

 

[Mordac]

The issue is not so much HST differentials but Sprinter or MU differentials. 22x can use the former but not the latter, as can 180s. I was under the impression that HST differentials WERE available to 185s too- just not SP/MU speeds.

I think you mean the other way round, 22x are definitely in MU differentials.

 

[tbtc]

With all that power underfloor. I can't help thinking the S and C or scottish hills

The S&C would be good terrain for them, but that'd only ever need a handful of DMUs - it's a bi-hourly service and the journey time is only around three hours, so it's never going to require many 185s.

Three coach DMUs will be plenty of capacity (beyond maybe a doubled up unit leaving Leeds on weekend mornings and Carlisle on weekend afternoons during the summer), so I don't think you could even beef up the numbers by doubling up most diagrams.

I'd suggest 185s on the S&C only if a significant number were going to be used on other Northern services around that area (whether Carlisle - Newcastle or Leeds - Calder Valley - Blackpool/ Manchester). Otherwise it'd be a micro fleet.

On the subject, interesting to note that TPE suggest that using their services (and changing at Manchester) is more convenient for those doing the Leeds - Carlisle journey:

Jumping on board a Transpennine Express train is the most convenient way to travel from Leeds to Carlisle

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/routes/trains-from-leeds-to-carlisle/

Shoehorning the 185s into the SWT franchise seems a little bit convoluted from what I've read

Yes, and it does seem to be a bit of a Forum obsession (see also "Shoehorning 222s into the SWT franchise" etc).

158/159s are perfect for the SWT franchise for the time being though - given the need to fill platform space at Waterloo, the need for portion working, the need for flexibility. Keep them there until they are life expired and can be replaced by a new generation of 100mph bi-modes.

Keep the 185s somewhere that doesn't involve splitting them into more than two fleets.

 

[Mordac]

On the subject, interesting to note that TPE suggest that using their services (and changing at Manchester) is more convenient for those doing the Leeds - Carlisle journey:



https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/routes/trains-from-leeds-to-carlisle/

Well, that's certainly true at the moment.

 

[43096]

Would be better finding an EMU from somewhere than using a DMU on an electrified branch. Give one of the depots a couple of 319s as depot "pets" or something.

Best off using a 450 on it - once the 707s displace the 458s back to Reading services there ought to be one available. People have these ideas of bringing in various other stock just for the branch (was 508s, now 319s) and don't consider that they will be completely non-standard with all the costs of training, spares etc etc.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Best off using a 450 on it - once the 707s displace the 458s back to Reading services there ought to be one available. People have these ideas of bringing in various other stock just for the branch (was 508s, now 319s) and don't consider that they will be completely non-standard with all the costs of training, spares etc etc.

That can't really be relied upon. We don't yet know what routes and stock TFL will grab from SWT.

 

[swt_passenger]

That can't really be relied upon. We don't yet know what routes and stock TFL will grab from SWT.

AFAICT TfL won't take over any routes that will be using 450s or 458s once the internal cascades are complete. 707s and the existing 455s and 456s will be in service on the inner suburban routes.

The branch should have been 450 operated on weekdays by last December, it didn't happen at the last minute only because the 458 conversions were late.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

How's the EMT franchise direct award and renewal fit with the removal of the 185s from TPE ? Given the comment above about maintenance in Manchester, plus the clearance already in place for Sheffield to Liverpool, plus the numbers being just right for providing Notttingham-Liverpool, I can't see any other logical outcome - but then when has logic ever come franchising decisions

They would be ideal for the Liverpool-Nottingham portion of EMT but wouldn't there be issues East of Nottingham so would require the Liverpool-Norwich service to be split at Nottingham which was unpopular.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally DfT instructed Northern bidders that they were only allowed to take on released 15xs or 17xs. With the TPE award being made at the same time Arriva wouldn't have known about the 185s being released unless DfT had chose to tell them as well as telling them they can revise their plans to include the use of 185s.

It was a shame the new Northern franchise wasn't bid till after the TPE franchise had been awarded. The Nothern bidders could have then taken on the 185's instead of the Scotrail 170's