22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[northwichcat]

The Conwy Valley only requires one.

But ATW only have 36 x 150s in total so they'll need to put all their 150s on to Valley Lines if they are to replace them by an internal cascade as a result of 185s arriving.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They'd be really nice for the Marches line, which I did for the first time this weekend! The 175s are pretty good, but then they could be cascaded elsewhere or used to strengthen services.

There's a little problem for 185s on the northern half of the route.
North of Onibury (Craven Arms) there are sections of MU differential speed limits, and that also applies pretty much all the way from Shrewsbury to Nantwich.
So whereas 175/158s can do 90mph on most of this, 185s would be limited to the loco speed of 70/75mph.
South of Onibury there are no differentials, and it's mostly 90mph for all traffic down to Pontypool.
Must have been down to how BR LM and BR Western designed the route upgrade to 90mph for 158s in the 1980s.

 

[alexl92]

There's sections of greater than 100mph running on that route though, which the 185s would not be able to achieve. Whether it would be sufficient to affect timings I don't know, but it seems like a non-starter to me.

If moved to a route that didn't require the same hill climbing ability as the Transpennine route, could the 185s be re-geared to 110mph running?

 

[BR60062]

Would the Class 185's fit on the Birmingham New Street-Stansted Airport/Cambridge route? As I was thinking that CCT would replace the unsuitable 2 car Class 170's elsewhere and use 185's in their place. Or are these units too fat/wide for the tracks there? .

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

In theory, which would be the easiest from an operational point of view?

HUL - MAN - LIV

or

HUL - MCV - LIV?

Not entirely sure if drivers on the Hull - Manchester Picc journeys sign for MCV, but I am certain they must for closures and whatnot. Said it before and I will say it again - we need our Liverpool trains back... Even at just four trains a day, it could create new business and leisure links between two large cities on opposing sides of the country. It wasn't that long ago that we had a HUL - LIV service, although i seem to think it was more of a glorified ECS movement.

Crewing issues might not be too bad as the crews could either transfer over with the units going to Northern or Northern simply hire the crews in like they do with the Blackpool services.

 

[Clansman]

Would the Class 185's fit on the Birmingham New Street-Stansted Airport/Cambridge route? As I was thinking that CCT would replace the unsuitable 2 car Class 170's elsewhere and use 185's in their place. Or are these units too fat/wide for the tracks there? .

Trains are built to be compatible in any standard gauge line in the UK network nowadays. Many new EMUs being built are dual voltage compatible (SWT Desiros), so no, the 185s won't be too fat or wide for the tracks there

 

[BR60062]

Thanks for clearing that up. Hopefully CCT might bid on them and increase their seating/standing capacity on that route as the two-car 170's are a joke for space at peak times .

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thanks for clearing that up. Hopefully CCT might bid on them and increase their seating/standing capacity on that route as the two-car 170's are a joke for space at peak times .

The bigger issue for the 185s is that they are heavier than other comparable DMUs. Across the rail network, lighter trains are permitted to run at faster speeds than heavier ones and the journey time savings as a result are quite considerable. The 185s were built to be heavy but extremely powerful for the TransPennine hill climb, so they would actually be faster than a lighter but less powerful DMU. There are relatively few routes across the country where their hill climbing performance is enough to offset their increased mass and it would be inefficient to split up the fleet of 22 units any more.

The 22 185s are being freed up because TransPennine Express no longer want them, as FirstGroup chose to get loco hauled rakes and Class 802s for the longer-distance TransPennine services. The Northern and TransPennine Express franchises were put out for tender at the same time as entirely separate contracts. Bidders for Northern were told that they couldn't plan to use any of the rolling stock used by TPE as the DfT wanted the bids to be properly independent (it would have been a nightmare if the best bids on both sides both wanted to use the same fleet of trains). If the fact that the 22 185s would be free been available to the Northern bidders it is quite probable that they would have used them and then taken on fewer other trains. Northern and TPE could then have shared the current Siemens maintenance facility near Manchester so there would be no additional depot or training costs.

Eversholt Rail, the owners of the 185 fleet, would probably have given Northern a good deal on leasing terms because they know about the difficulties of using the 185s anywhere else. The regional CrossCountry routes, for instance, make use of Sprinter differentials and wouldn't gain enough from the faster acceleration to offset the lower linespeeds. At the moment, the next XC bidder is far more likely to bid on the former Greater Anglia 170s so that they can have a consistent fleet of trains capable of matching the timetable.

 

[IanXC]

Given that the 16x 170s from ScotRail and the unknown 18x 170 equivalents specified, and the ease by which 170s could be found a home elsewhere, I still wouldn't bet against some kind of rearrangement of stock resulting in these 185s going to Northern.

Additionally the question of splitting Liverpool to Norwich, and transferring a portion to TPE is still just about on the table - the EMT ITT will presumably inform this.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they went to Scotland would Scotrail have enough room in whichever depot services their 380s or would a new depot need to be built?

 

[northwichcat]

Given that the 16x 170s from ScotRail and the unknown 18x 170 equivalents specified, and the ease by which 170s could be found a home elsewhere, I still wouldn't bet against some kind of rearrangement of stock resulting in these 185s going to Northern.

Well the TPE franchise agreement actually said 4 x 170 equivalents to replace the ones bound for Chiltern which turned out to be a smaller number of 3 car 185s!

Although with Northern there's presumably also the option of an add-on for more 195s if the 170 option isn't available, but 170s are probably preferred as they'll be cheaper to operate than 185s or 195s.

 

[The Ham]

The problems with the 185's appear to be:
- too heavy for sprinter speeds, but having a top speed of 100, so too slow for services run by 22x's
- too few seats due to having two loos, first class and a disabled area in 3 coaches
- only being 21 units spare making them not that useful for many TOC's

Two thoughts that could swing things in their favour. First, like their 350 cousins could it be possible to get them cleared to run at 110mph? If so they could be useful to XC, as a pair of them would have more seats than either the 220's or 221's when they run as single units. There could be some pathing issues, but maybe not enough to be too much of a problem.

Second, given that they are over powered for most, could an extra un powered coach or two be added to increase capacity (potentially nearly double with two coaches) but drop their top speed. If they ended up on a par with 158's/159's in terms of capacity and speed profile then there could be more places where they could be useful.

 

[Haydn1971]

Although the northern franchise specifically prevented the use of the 185s it's not beyond the wit of man to revise the franchise situation so that they remain at the Manchester depot and the previously agreed units 168/170 whatever end up with a fleet that already has them and can make better use of them than the 185s - there is also the option that given the current growth profiles, plus the expansion of Manchester airport, TPE still find up use for some of the 22 within their fleet, leaving a smaller number to move to another franchise, which might be more useful.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Second, given that they are over powered for most, could an extra un powered coach or two be added to increase capacity (potentially nearly double with two coaches) but drop their top speed. If they ended up on a par with 158's/159's in terms of capacity and speed profile then there could be more places where they could be useful.

Above the solebar level are they basically the same as a "non-panwell trailer" for a 350/360/450?

 

[Domh245]

Above the solebar level are they basically the same as a "non-panwell trailer" for a 350/360/450?

No, they are thinner and longer (23m) than the 350/450/360s.

 

[1179_Clee2]

The problems with the 185's appear to be:
- too heavy for sprinter speeds, but having a top speed of 100, so too slow for services run by 22x's
- too few seats due to having two loos, first class and a disabled area in 3 coaches
- only being 21 units spare making them not that useful for many TOC's

The 185's may be heavy at the moment, but as part of what TPX said about it's new franchise, the 185's it would be keeping would be fitted with new energy efficient engines.
It has not said anything on what horse power or weight the engines will be, but anybody who wanted the remaining 185's could do exactly the same.
As the Cummings QSK19 engines have been in railway use since 2000, the new engines could be lighter, as technology has moved on quite a lot in the last 16 years.

 

[edwin_m]

The 185's may be heavy at the moment, but as part of what TPX said about it's new franchise, the 185's it would be keeping would be fitted with new energy efficient engines.
It has not said anything on what horse power or weight the engines will be, but anybody who wanted the remaining 185's could do exactly the same.
As the Cummings QSK19 engines have been in railway use since 2000, the new engines could be lighter, as technology has moved on quite a lot in the last 16 years.

The weight of the engines will only be a small part of the weight of the train. Google gives me 4105lb which I think is for a marine version but should be about right. That's about 2 tonnes, so even in the unlikely event that a new engine halved it, the weight saving on a coach of around 50 tonnes wouldn't be much.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The regional CrossCountry routes, for instance, make use of Sprinter differentials

Birmingham-Stansted does, but as far as I know Nottingham-Cardiff doesn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

like their 350 cousins could it be possible to get them cleared to run at 110mph?

The running gear is probably similar but the big question mark for me would be the transmissions. 185s have a hydraulic transmission similar to a Sprinter which may not be stretchable to a higher speed.

 

[BR60062]

Now my next question pops up. How many of these sets would be required for the Stansted-Birmingham route and also how many sets would the Norwich-Liverpool route require? Would 22 be enough for both routes? Or would the 185's be more viable for the Norwich-Liverpool Lime St route with East Midlands Trains? As between Nottingham and Liverpool, they usually double up the trains to 4 car sets using Class 158+158 or in some cases Class 158+156 in tamdem and then split to just two car units towards Norwich from Nottingham. So would a Class 185 three car set be viable to run as a complete set from Norwich to Liverpool as a fixed set? Or would this cause a problem with some stations south of Nottingham?

Apologies for the questions. But there must be a reason why this train NEVER proceeds south past Nottingham as a four car train using two DMU's in its consist. I am not that familiar with the stations south of Peterborough on this route. Especially those in Norfolk and that area .

 

[D365]

Now my next question pops up. How many of these sets would be required for the Stansted-Birmingham route and also how many sets would the Norwich-Liverpool route require? Would 22 be enough for both routes? Or would the 185's be more viable for the Norwich-Liverpool Lime St route with East Midlands Trains? As between Nottingham and Liverpool, they usually double up the trains to 4 car sets using Class 158+158 or in some cases Class 158+156 in tamdem and then split to just two car units towards Norwich from Nottingham. So would a Class 185 three car set be viable to run as a complete set from Norwich to Liverpool as a fixed set? Or would this cause a problem with some stations south of Nottingham?

Apologies for the questions. But there must be a reason why this train NEVER proceeds south past Nottingham as a four car train using two DMU's in its consist. I am not that familiar with the stations south of Peterborough on this route. Especially those in Norfolk and that area .

Lack of demand? Though I tend to avoid travel at peak hours, I find that the two cars past Nottingham is usually enough.

And if you're hoping to suggest that 185s should be used through Peterborough, again, forget it.

 

[317 forever]

There is talk of removing Cardiff - Manchester from the Wales & Borders franchise. As TPE is effectively Manchester Express, except to London & Birmingham, this route could be taken over by TPE using class 185s.

 

[BR60062]

Lack of demand? Though I tend to avoid travel at peak hours, I find that the two cars past Nottingham is usually enough.

And if you're hoping to suggest that 185s should be used through Peterborough, again, forget it.

Nope, not a suggestion mate. Just a mere thought and some light speculation of where they could be used after they come off their lease with FTPE . Although Class 442's with some spare Class 67's are availble for the foamers! .

 

[D365]

Sprinter diffs on the regional routes (and the fact that virtually all of East Anglia's rolling stock needs has been finalised) means there's no chance of these foamers coming near anyway

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Nope, not a suggestion mate. Just a mere thought and some light speculation of where they could be used after they come off their lease with FTPE . Although Class 442's with some spare Class 67's are availble for the foamers! .

There's a couple of 'foamers' at Angel Trains and First, and their combined head scratching might couldn't get the finances to stack up for LHCS 442 operation, so they'll go for scrap, unless a charter operator wants to buy up the units for the unpowered intermediate vehicles.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Just curious as to why the 185s can't run at MU speeds. Surely they are a multiple unit?

can;t run at 'sprinter' speeds you mean ?


as other posters have said it;s becasue of their mass and track impact , same as a 22x can't run at sprinter speeds but a pacer / sprinter / and some 17x can

 

[BR60062]

There's a couple of 'foamers' at Angel Trains and First, and their combined head scratching might couldn't get the finances to stack up for LHCS 442 operation, so they'll go for scrap, unless a charter operator wants to buy up the units for the unpowered intermediate vehicles.

In all logical and practical sense. The Class 442's are now in the past as something more practical and better in terms of reliability and age has superceeded them. So its scrap for the worse ones or preservation for the healthy ones methinks .

Anyway returning to topic. So I can safely rule out the Liverpool-Norwich and Stansted Airport-Birmingham routes for the 185's? Good! So perhaps SWT could use them on their non-EMU operated routes out of Waterloo and displace some 159's in the process? Another option could be Arriva Trains Wales and displace Class 158's to other ATW routes and that would free up the Class 150's to replace the awful "Pacer" low-riders that bounce and screech all over the place on some routes! I really depise the things :roll:.

 

[Mordac]

can;t run at 'sprinter' speeds you mean ?


as other posters have said it;s becasue of their mass and track impact , same as a 22x can't run at sprinter speeds but a pacer / sprinter / and some 17x can

They can't do either of those things, actually. From the Sectional Appendix:

Handbook RS/521 – Signals, handsignals, indicators and signs: Speed Indicators
Section 7.6 – Enhanced permissible speed indicators
[..]
"Class 185 trains are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds "

 

[swt_passenger]

So perhaps SWT could use them on their non-EMU operated routes out of Waterloo and displace some 159's in the process?

No. It would be a capacity reduction as explained numerous times already, they cannot form 10 car trains, and there aren't enough to replace all of the fleet anyway. Far better for the SW franchisee to do a proper job and replace the whole 159/158 fleet with something new.

 

[fergusjbend]

This is probably a damn fool question, but are there any technical reasons why 185s could not be used on the Brighton-Hastings-Ashford trains?

 

[Prestige15]

Accorting to RAIL issue 807, They may end up down south west

 

[Chris125]

Accorting to RAIL issue 807, They may end up down south west

They'd certainly motor over the Devon Banks, one of the few places where their extra power might compensate for their weight on a mainline route.