22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[61653 HTAFC]

To avoid cluttering up the TPE New Stock thread, perhaps speculation or suggestions about the 22 185s that will be released in the coming years could go here. To start us off there are a few issues to consider...

1. Sending them to Northern has been pretty much ruled out as a long-term answer.

2. The fleet is currently maintained by Siemens at Ardwick and York Leeman Road. Keeping them within reach of one of these depots would be sensible. However if they aren't going to Northern that pretty much rules out York which is a secondary facility anyway.

3. 185s were designed specifically for the Transpennine routes so are heavy, powerful units that would be subject to speed restrictions on many routes. This would work against use on Liverpool to Norwich, for example. The hill-climbing ability would make them ideal for Scotland but they're getting HSTs.

All the above being considered, I suggest that working Manchester to South and North Wales would make sense as it returns them to base regularly, and the 175 fleet is spread rather thinly on these services. With Liverpool services likely to make a comeback once the Halton Curve upgrade is complete, an extra 22 3-car units would be a welcome boost to capacity. This speculation is of course subject to whether sprinter differentials are widely used on those routes, but given the regular freight traffic on the Marches (and Voyagers on the North Wales coast) I imagine that would be less of an issue than for Nottingham to Norwich.

So, speculate away!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

North of Scotland replacing 156's?
If size is an issue reducing to 2 car and putting the redundant centre into the remaining TPE sets making them 4 car.

Fitting 2x trailers making them 5 car could extend their appeal and make the fuel consumption more reasonable in comparison. Waterloo Exeter could become an option but a corridor rebuild would be necessary and would therefore put the cost unviable.

Hmm.... Probs best keep them wherefore they were built...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

North of Scotland replacing 156's?
If size is an issue reducing to 2 car and putting the redundant centre into the remaining TPE sets making them 4 car.

Fitting 2x trailers making them 5 car could extend their appeal and make the fuel consumption more reasonable in comparison. Waterloo Exeter could become an option but a corridor rebuild would be necessary and would therefore put the cost unviable.

Hmm.... Probs best keep them wherefore they were built...

I'd have thought that even with a refurbishment to increase capacity, they'd still be a step backwards compared to 159s, though if they were kept to the Waterloo-Salisbury runs rather than Exeter it could work, 2x185 being better than a single 159. There's also a Siemens depot at Northam so that at least solves that part of the conundrum. If we assume they have 25 years left in them some degree of reforming or rebuilding might be worthwhile but I'm not sure if that would stretch to fitting end gangways.

As for keeping them all at TPE that would be ideal for the next few years, as I'm pretty sure a single 185 carrying all the Hull to Manchester traffic plus all the short distance passengers from the various smaller stations between Leeds and Manchester will be a tight squeeze! Of course if they were all 6-car then several platforms would need significant extension, and there's still the lack of gangways to contend with.

 

[Clansman]

This has been discussed tons of times. I think Scotrail would benefit from having them on Glasgow to Stranraer/Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle services.

 

[47802]

Yawn!, not like its not been discussed before is it, they wont be going anywhere for a few years yet anyway.

Hers a thought well the maintenance depot might be a limiting factor, but where could they cascaded to probably just about anywhere

 

[RobShipway]

They could even be cascaded to Southern for the class 171's to be moved on elsewhere, but it is more likely that they will go to ATW and/or GWR.

 

[DarloRich]

why not just leave them where they are?

Is splitting them into two car units a good use for a decent unit?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Turning them into 2s (running in pairs) and 4s might actually make sense in a few contexts.

FWIW with talk of putting the centre car into a 350, they are 23m rather than 20m and narrower. Though that isn't to say that wouldn't be possible - it would just look a bit odd (like those 455s with a 508 vehicle) and be a non-standard length.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

why not just leave them where they are?

That's too logical.
TPE and Northern have had their spending rounds so won't want any additional stock.
That assumes TPE completes its very odd new train procurement.
Ditching 22x185s for LHCS seems perverse, unless the lease/operating costs for 185s are unacceptable.
But then why keep 29 of them for TP South?
Maybe it's a negotiating ploy with the ROSCO/Siemens to get the cost down.

The ATW option probably keeps them at Ardwick, though the new W&B franchise won't be signing up for new trains before 2018 at the earliest.
An EMT option seems unpopular, and XC wouldn't use them on Manchester services.
Any other option moves them away from Ardwick and splits the fleet, and they would become unloved like the 180s.
East-West is going to need some decent DMUs when it opens (new mini-franchise).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

why not just leave them where they are? Is splitting them into two car units a good use for a decent unit?

I totally agree with what you say and a three-car unit is a much better proposition on many routes than a two-car unit.

 

[Monty]

A move to SWTland is unlikely as it would be dependant on a number of factors. SWT (or the successor to the franchise) would probably would ask for special dispensation to fit gangways to the cabs as operating them without will prove to be impractical on it's network. Though it's doubtful they would get the okay to do this, also the unit's are massively overpowered for the route they would run on and thought to the removal of the centre cars engine would probably have to be considered. On top of that there would be no doubt SWT would be expected to hand over some of its 158/9 fleet in return to be cascaded elsewhere. In short they would need too much work to be made suitable for the WoE mainline and company would effectively be operating two incompatible micro fleets of of DMUs.

Inserting the centre cars unto 350/450s would be a non starter as the 185s coaches share more in common with the 444s when you consider coach length and width. I'm not sure if they would even be electrically compatible with the electric stock either so a complete rewire maybe require anyway so that's a load more expensive work to potentially do.

In my opinion they are far more likely to go to either Scotland or Wales in future where there is a need for a unit with a decent hill climbing capability which would also be replacing older rolling stock while at the same time possibly adding a boost to capacity.

 

[DarloRich]

.
East-West is going to need some decent DMUs when it opens (new mini-franchise).

although if I can have them for Marston Vale stoppers post electrification you have a deal!

 

[northwichcat]

TPE and Northern have had their spending rounds so won't want any additional stock.

Don't forget Northern are expected to get at least 36 additional DMU carriages between the start of 2020 and the end of 2022. One rumour is the ROSCOs want those to be GWR 150/2s with GWR getting something else in lieu but 12 x 185s would fit the fill as well.

Also apparently First are still keen on the idea of the TPE franchise taking over Liverpool to Nottingham using 185s when the EMT franchise comes to an end.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

why not just leave them where they are?

Is splitting them into two car units a good use for a decent unit?

Keeping them all at TPE does seem to be the neatest solution to be honest, the only issue would be that there'd probably have to be a reduction in the premium payments that DfT can expect from the franchise to cover the extra leasing and running costs.

Splitting them into 2 and 4 car units would be a non-starter as long as they have the current interior arrangement. Removing first class and going 2+2 throughout would help with that.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

How about Chiltern?

Marylebone to Milton Keynes will need new stock plus maybe 6 car 185s could supply an increased capacity instead of the 3 or 4 car 168 to Birmingham.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Give a couple to Northern and restore through trains from Hull to Liverpool Lime Street

 

[northwichcat]

Give a couple to Northern and restore through trains from Hull to Liverpool Lime Street

Unless they run Liverpool-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds-Hull, they'll be no path to do that and if they go that way they'll be slower than changing.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Unless they run Liverpool-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds-Hull, they'll be no path to do that and if they go that way they'll be slower than changing.

Why can't they go HUL - MAN - LIV?

 

[northwichcat]

Why can't they go HUL - MAN - LIV?

Paths from Yorkshire in to Piccadilly from the east are being reduced to allow much needed enhancements to local services in to Piccadilly. (The Hull TPE service and the new Leeds-Manchester 'semi-fast' will be the only TPE services via Guide Bridge.) While TPE will be utilising all available passenger paths through Marsden between December 2017 and Manchester-York electrification.

Northern are planning to run a Liverpool-Leeds via Bradford Northern Connect service so extending that would be the only way they could link Liverpool and Hull.

 

[greaterwest]

What about replacing the Networker Turbos on the North Downs Line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting them into 2 and 4 car units would be a non-starter as long as they have the current interior arrangement. Removing first class and going 2+2 throughout would help with that.

An interior rejig to move First Class to a vehicle end is needed whatever happens to them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An interior rejig to move First Class to a vehicle end is needed whatever happens to them.

Lots of people suggest this, I'm not convinced myself. If it was, first class would have no wheelchair access to the universal toilet. It would also have a capacity of just 9 seats assuming no wheelchair space, though that in itself wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion given how crowded they get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of people suggest this, I'm not convinced myself. If it was, first class would have no wheelchair access to the universal toilet. It would also have a capacity of just 9 seats assuming no wheelchair space, though that in itself wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion given how crowded they get.

As the bogs are modular and are in different locations on 350s I expect the bog itself could be moved, though it would obviously be more work than just moving seats.

I'm unconvinced that First Class needs wheelchair access on a short train. A wheelchair-bound passenger would be unlikely to wish to pay to travel First Class because they would not be able to avail themselves of its main benefit, the more comfortable seating (TPE do not offer a full catering service which would be the other reason). And indeed First Class on TPE as it is now does not have a wheelchair space - the wheelchair space and bog are situated in a marooned small area of Standard.

So to me the answer is to move First to the opposite end of the unit, where it could take the end section next to the cab plus about half of the centre section with a dividing door, in the manner of the Class 321 layout. This would have the advantage of providing two smaller more private compartments for First as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Lots of people suggest this, I'm not convinced myself. If it was, first class would have no wheelchair access to the universal toilet. It would also have a capacity of just 9 seats assuming no wheelchair space, though that in itself wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion given how crowded they get.

You could do the SWT 170 approach and have a little FC area at both ends but the problem could then be if there are standing passengers the FC passengers at one end might get complimentary refreshments but the ones at the others may not.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You could do the SWT 170 approach and have a little FC area at both ends but the problem could then be if there are standing passengers the FC passengers at one end might get complimentary refreshments but the ones at the others may not.

The 170s from SWT still had 2 first-class sections for a few weeks after they moved North, one being declassified. A shame that within a few weeks First replaced SWT's nice interiors with their garish purple!

Ideally there'd be NO first-class on TPE until they manage to provide adequate capacity overall. It was bad enough when Northern Spirit introduced it onto already crowded 158s but to then have approximately 1/5th of each 185 sitting mostly empty was and is ridiculous. First-class is all well and good but it is a luxury not an essential.

 

[Deepgreen]

What about replacing the Networker Turbos on the North Downs Line?

You beat me to it! Heavy and powerful units may be what is required for this route which is notorious for leaf fall and winter adhesion problems, with which the 165/166s are terrible at coping. Serious timekeeping problems occur every year with these relatively lightweight units.

 

[Master29]

Why not the East Midland Liverpool to Norwich route. Let`s face it the 158`s are coming in for constant criticism on this route. Seems to make sense but who knows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not the East Midland Liverpool to Norwich route. Let's face it the 158's are coming in for constant criticism on this route.

By whom? They are extremely well-suited to the route.

 

[northwichcat]

By whom? They are extremely well-suited to the route.

The unreliable air conditioning does get constant criticism. The seating isn't liked by all but the same is true of 185 seating as well.

 

[Harbornite]

How about Chiltern?

Marylebone to Milton Keynes will need new stock plus maybe 6 car 185s could supply an increased capacity instead of the 3 or 4 car 168 to Birmingham.

That seems unlikely to me, Chiltern will be getting additional stock in the form of 172s from LO.