22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[northwichcat]

Unless ATW plan on taking on more 158s then they will be left short of units by replacing the 175 fleet with 22 185s.

I believe Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford will resume upon the new franchise, as it used to be until the early 2000s.

At the moment there's a lot of question marks over the next Wales & Border franchise, the door has been left open for English services transferring to LM and other franchises if Cardiff gets full control over the franchise. There could well be a Wales franchise where the only DMUs are Sprinters.

However, if it all the current routes remain in the same franchise and additional routes get added I can't see 158s and 175s and 185s being the solution. If they get 185s I imagine they'll either replace some 175s with 158s or they'll start releasing/subleasing 175s with the 175s going when Manchester-York electrification is complete and more 185s will be made available.

 

[notlob.divad]

Given the 185s are very thirsty, with their extra powerful engines for the hills, if they are not going to be needing the extra umph can they be de-rated/remapped to make them more fuel efficient for the flatter routes being proposed.

 

[D365]

Given the 185s are very thirsty, with their extra powerful engines for the hills, if they are not going to be needing the extra umph can they be de-rated/remapped to make them more fuel efficient for the flatter routes being proposed.

They already do that, don't they? I sat in a 185 coach recently where the engine seemed to have been turned off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, they run with one engine off, this is rotated automatically to keep hours the same.


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[gimmea50anyday]

They already do that, don't they? I sat in a 185 coach recently where the engine seemed to have been turned off.

Sure it wasn't an isolated engine? We seem to have a few of these of late.

Otherwise

When at linespeed drivers briefly drop the power to nothing, then back to full power. Thus activates speed set, a kind of cruise control. The TMS will then roll back the power on one of the engines which after a couple of minutes at idle will then shut down. Driver will then restart the engine at the next station stop.

Some routes the train will run on two engines rather than 3. This is ECO2 mode. Cheshire lines and york-Scarborough being two of those routes. ECO1 mode is for depot and shunt moves and is one engine only

 

[Clansman]

How would standard class on a 185 compare to a Scotrail 156 capacity wise? More so thinking on the fact that 185s would be suited to the Lowlands between Glasgow to Stranraer via Ayr and Newcastle via Carlisle as the acceleration would be greater than the 156s and more suited to the line. It would also add a better quality of journey between Carlisle and Newcastle which probably wouldn't go a miss should capacity allow?

 

[Harbornite]

I would think that the class 170's with XC, would at some point in time in the future get replaced by class 801's or similar hybrid train rather than being replaced by class 185's.

Perhaps, the 800's would also be good replacements for the XC Voyagers and HST's.

 

[RobShipway]

Perhaps, the 800's would also be good replacements for the XC Voyagers and HST's.

That was partially my thought, with the 34 class 220's then replacing the class 158's with East Midland trains and the 23 class 221's with XC going to Arriva trains Wales to replace their class 158's.

The East Midlands 158's, would then replace their class 153 and 156 trains, plus also inherit some of the ATW class 158 trains.

 

[Mordac]

I think this is the best topic to ask, how many units are TPE loaning to Northern? I've heard both 5 going down to 4 in July, and 4 going down to 3 in July, hence my asking, as I know there are people here who'll know for sure.

 

[D365]

That was partially my thought, with the 34 class 220's then replacing the class 158's with East Midland trains and the 23 class 221's with XC going to Arriva trains Wales to replace their class 158's.

It's been discussed many a time; the Voyagers would not be good replacements for Class 158s.

 

[The Planner]

Who would cough up for the ERTMS fitment to them?

 

[Whistler40145]

Could they be used on Carlisle to Glasgow Central via Dumfries or Glasgow Central to Stranraer services?

 

[matchmaker]

North of Scotland replacing 156's?
If size is an issue reducing to 2 car and putting the redundant centre into the remaining TPE sets making them 4 car.

Fitting 2x trailers making them 5 car could extend their appeal and make the fuel consumption more reasonable in comparison. Waterloo Exeter could become an option but a corridor rebuild would be necessary and would therefore put the cost unviable.

Hmm.... Probs best keep them wherefore they were built...

If by north of Scotland you mean north of Inverness, all services are 158's. There would be no advantage using a 185 over a 158, as the only significant climb I know of is that from Dingwall to Raven Rock Summit on the Kyle line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Who would cough up for the ERTMS fitment to them?

I still feel Welsh services are the best home for them, but I would not put them on the Cambrian so ETCS fitment wouldn't be an immediate requirement. Nor would I replace the 175s, but simply use them to boost capacity in the routes from Manchester to both North and South Wales. This would result in a single 185 being the lowest capacity service in most cases, the 2-car 175s running in pairs from Manchester to Swansea where they could then divide to serve both Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock. A similar operation could work in the North, with services dividing at Llandudno Junction for Llandudno and Holyhead or indeed dividing at Chester for Manchester and Cardiff or Liverpool. Obviously the 175s can't pair with 185s so that would be a limiting factor, but it would vastly reduce the occurences of 2-car 175s being overwhelmed between Manchester and Crewe or Chester. Yes, it would increase subsidy but would also increase capacity and therefore ridership. As an added bonus it would cut down on 158 use away from the Cambrian lines, allowing more 4/6-car operation on that route.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think 185s would be OK on the North Wales Coast services and Manchester to Cardiff services replacing 175s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think 185s would be OK on the North Wales Coast services and Manchester to Cardiff services replacing 175s.

I'd say supplementing rather than replacing- even with first class replaced with more standard, a 185 is lower capacity than a 175/1.

 

[northwichcat]

Obviously the 175s can't pair with 185s so that would be a limiting factor, but it would vastly reduce the occurences of 2-car 175s being overwhelmed between Manchester and Crewe or Chester.

I would hope the new Northern service between Manchester and Chester from December 2017 will reduce overcrowding on the ATW services - the Northern service will be faster than the ATW one so should be more popular with passengers going between Manchester and Chester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd say supplementing rather than replacing- even with first class replaced with more standard, a 185 is lower capacity than a 175/1.

The lack of first class accommodation in the Class 175 units on our journeys in the past from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury, Ludlow and Hereford has always been a source of annoyance to my good lady wife and I, compared with our many journeys in the first-class accommodation section on services from Manchester Airport to places such as Durham and York on the TPE Class 185 units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The lack of first class accommodation in the Class 175 units on our journeys in the past from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury, Ludlow and Hereford has always been a source of annoyance to my good lady wife and I, compared with our many journeys in the first-class accommodation section on services from Manchester Airport to places such as Durham and York on the TPE Class 185 units.

Perhaps you should lobby the Welsh Assembly to ensure that first class accommodation is provided when the new Wales franchise is tendered. My own feeling is that first class should only be provided once a service has sufficient capacity overall.

 

[Philip]

Here's an idea:

Manchester-West Wales becomes Manchester-Swansea, requiring 9 diagrams and so 18 Class 185s can run the service, all doubled up with first class retained. The service can run fast between Shrewsbury and Hereford, with occasional peak time calls at Ludlow, along with Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem, if platform lengths allow. This would make up for time lost in speed differentials, in fact it would probably speed up the service compared to now. An extra 185 can also replace the current 150 booked on the Crewe-Chester shuttle, giving Crewe-Chester a half-hourly first class offering and increasing capacity with an extra carriage, to the benefit of London/Birmingham-Chester passengers who are changing.

That would mean 19/22 185s in service, the other 3 for spare and maintenance.

The released Class 175s can then be focused on an hourly all stops service from Carmarthen to Shrewsbury, with bi-hourly services starting from Milford Haven as per now. Beyond Shrewsbury the service can alternate bi-hourly between the current stopping service to Crewe and the current service to Wrexham, Chester and Holyhead. I imagine that would free up at least 2-3 175s, which could then be used to replace the current p158 Manchester-North Wales diagram, and for the new Liverpool service.

 

[Bevan Price]

At the moment there's a lot of question marks over the next Wales & Border franchise, the door has been left open for English services transferring to LM and other franchises if Cardiff gets full control over the franchise. There could well be a Wales franchise where the only DMUs are Sprinters.

However, if it all the current routes remain in the same franchise and additional routes get added I can't see 158s and 175s and 185s being the solution. If they get 185s I imagine they'll either replace some 175s with 158s or they'll start releasing/subleasing 175s with the 175s going when Manchester-York electrification is complete and more 185s will be made available.

I can't see why ATW (or successor) would want to replace 175s by 185s. They have fewer seats than a 175/1, and are probably more expensive to run. I suggest it is more likely that ATW might prefer to get some Scottish 158s when they are displaced by HSTs.

Indeed, I wonder if any TOC would willingly take surplus 185s unless they can be reconfigured to run more economically.

 

[RobShipway]

I can't see why ATW (or successor) would want to replace 175s by 185s. They have fewer seats than a 175/1, and are probably more expensive to run. I suggest it is more likely that ATW might prefer to get some Scottish 158s when they are displaced by HSTs.

Indeed, I wonder if any TOC would willingly take surplus 185s unless they can be reconfigured to run more economically.

I would have though as suggested previously, if ATW where to have the class 185 trains, that they would also keep hold of the 175's as well, so this would mean the class 185's replacing the class 158's.

 

[Philip]

I would have though as suggested previously, if ATW where to have the class 185 trains, that they would also keep hold of the 175's as well, so this would mean the class 185's replacing the class 158's.

Class 158s are needed for the Cambrian service.play

 

[RobShipway]

Class 158s are needed for the Cambrian service.play

Explain please why are they needed and cannot be replaced by class 185 units?

 

[43096]

Explain please why are they needed and cannot be replaced by class 185 units?

It's because the Cambrian lines are only available to ETCS fitted traction and the ATW 158s are the only passenger fleet so fitted.
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I suggest it is more likely that ATW might prefer to get some Scottish 158s when they are displaced by HSTs.

Only 8 158s are being released by ScotRail once the HSTs arrive and they are already signed up by Northern.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

And is it not possible to fit ETCS to other stock?

 

[The Planner]

Of course it is, but no one is going to do it without the need to. Where are the 185s being maintained if they end up on the Cambrian etc, Machy or somewhere else?

 

[Harbornite]

And is it not possible to fit ETCS to other stock?

It would be an expensive investment, so ATW might as well keep the 158 fleet for the Cambrian before additional stock with ERTMS equipment is sorted.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would be an expensive investment, so ATW might as well keep the 158 fleet for the Cambrian before additional stock with ERTMS equipment is sorted.

If ATW were to get more 158s, fitting the ETCS equipment is now a known quantity with those units so it would be easier. In time, other units will need the equipment as ETCS installation spreads of course, but I'd guess the only units where it might be impossible would be pacers and the small cabs of 153s, all of which which will probably be out of use before they'd need ETCS fitment.

 

[northwichcat]

The lack of first class accommodation in the Class 175 units on our journeys in the past from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury, Ludlow and Hereford has always been a source of annoyance to my good lady wife and I, compared with our many journeys in the first-class accommodation section on services from Manchester Airport to places such as Durham and York on the TPE Class 185 units.

Any train could be fitted with First Class seating. The SWT 158s have FC even if the ATW 158s do not, while it should be easier to create a FC section on a 175 than on a Desiro due to the door layout. In fact with TPE planning to replace the FC seats with more superior ones on the 29 x 185s they are keeping ATW could probably obtain some second hand FC seats on the cheap, although it's possible the next LM franchise will want them with the requirement to provide better facilities on Liverpool-Birmingham and Crewe-Euston services.