New GW/TL/ET Franchise Competitions Start

[swt_passenger]

Size for size isn't this really a SN reverse takeover of Thameslink and bits of Southeastern?

Maybe the combined franchise should just trade as Southern in due course?

 

[Nym]

Over a Billion Pounds of passenger revenue - South Eastern is already too big at £1/2billion, look at the complaints there already - how will anyone manage such a large franchise

You mean like Network South East?

 

[Class377/5]

Sounds like the start of a new Network Southeast to me. Would make sense to have new stock for the Thameslink services, would mean passengers can easily tell what kind of service they'd be boarding (ie 377 for Victoria and Desiro for London Bridge/Core).

 

[ntg]

So does this leave the non Thameslink Cambridge trains with FCC?
That's surprising, I would have thought folding it into the ICEC franchise would be more logical.

I'd imagine it's because the stopping Thameslink services will be operating over parts currently served by FCC and Southern such as Welwyn Garden City to Tattenham Corner and Cambridge to Horsham.

Saying that though such trains will also be calling at SE stations...

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd imagine it's because the stopping Thameslink services will be operating over parts currently served by FCC and Southern such as Welwyn Garden City to Tattenham Corner and Cambridge to Horsham.

Saying that though such trains will also be calling at SE stations...

But I think HSTEd was referring to the non Thameslink services that will still be running into Kings Cross...

 

[jopsuk]

As it is "only" a seven year franchise, perhaps the "orphan" bits of the Great Northern and South Central areas will be split off from 2020? Rather than have too much change happen at once?
As for Essex Thameside, whilst I can see the attraction of merging it into Greater Anglia, it functions very, very well as a stand alone- after all, other tha couple of services for route retention/diversions for engineering work, it essentially has no crossover with Greater Anglia- it only shares its tracks with freight. Since the investment to moderise and consolodate the signalling and the total replacement of the rag-bag of elderly stock, it has run well. That's a "don't fix what isn't broken" deiscion.

 

[Class377/5]

But I think HSTEd was referring to the non Thameslink services that will still be running into Kings Cross...

I'd imagine it's because the stopping Thameslink services will be operating over parts currently served by FCC and Southern such as Welwyn Garden City to Tattenham Corner and Cambridge to Horsham.

Saying that though such trains will also be calling at SE stations...

Reason these services are staying with FCC is fact that signalling for most of the GN is transferring to Three Bridges. Makes sense to have your TOC and NR staff together. (just not on different floors).

As it is "only" a seven year franchise, perhaps the "orphan" bits of the Great Northern and South Central areas will be split off from 2020? Rather than have too much change happen at once?
As for Essex Thameside, whilst I can see the attraction of merging it into Greater Anglia, it functions very, very well as a stand alone- after all, other tha couple of services for route retention/diversions for engineering work, it essentially has no crossover with Greater Anglia- it only shares its tracks with freight. Since the investment to moderise and consolodate the signalling and the total replacement of the rag-bag of elderly stock, it has run well. That's a "don't fix what isn't broken" deiscion.

Only a seven year franchise because of the Thameslink Programme. Makes no sense what so ever to rewrite the timetables and service patterns to large sections whilst changing TOC. Get the thing sorted, then work out a long term plan on that.

Come 2020 it makes sense to have a combined FCC/Southern/Southeastern franchise and give the GN non Thameslink side to East Anglia.

 

[jopsuk]

It'll be interesting to see whaen the EC and GA (long term) OJEU notices finally get published- assuming they do extend beyond 2020, they'll give us some clarity what'll happen with non-TL GN services- though if Moorgate IS to go LO they obviously won't mention it.

 

[Malderon]

I was kind of hoping for a FCC / Southern merger, as I was concerned that otherwise post thameslink programme the non Thameslink trains (ie those still running into Victoria) would be almost a second tier.

One thing that is a shame is there is AFAIK one of the few areas of competition on say, Brighton - East Croydon at the moment, where Southern Only and FCC Only season tickets compete with one another.

I do think it now becomes more of a shame that the new stock wont be Electrostar family though. If the stock had basically just been more 377s, then you would just have one massive fleet of 377s for the new franchise with all the flexibility that entails!

 

[Clip]

Ive seen a lot mentioned on ehre as I try and catch up on the moorgate services going over to LO.. Just why? They still will have to use the cross at the weekend wont they?

I really dont see any benefit of the services moving to LO whatsoever. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

[tbtc]

Ive seen a lot mentioned on ehre as I try and catch up on the moorgate services going over to LO.. Just why? They still will have to use the cross at the weekend wont they?

I really dont see any benefit of the services moving to LO whatsoever. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

What else do you do with the Moorgate services?

They are basically a self contained route (in/around London) that needs dual voltage EMUs, so there are parallels with the LO routes (bearing in mind that LO run to Watford, which is beyond their "borders").

If the Cambridge/Kings Lynn "express" services become part of East Coast (due to running IEP trains) or Greater Anglia (due to serving Cambridge) then there'll be no Thameslink services at Kings Cross (once the existing Peterborough/ Cambridge 'semi fasts" go to the Thameslink tunnel).

(I've seen suggestion of putting a "full" service to Moorgate, though I can't remember where)

So, do you give the Moorgate services to:

• Southern/Thameslink (which will be a massive franchise, with its main focus south of the Thames)?
• Greater Anglia (which it has little to do with)
• LO (who run dual voltage EMUs and already run outside "London")?
• A stand alone franchise (albeit with a fairly small operation, so possibly not very efficient)?

I'm not saying any are "ideal", but you can see why LO are suggested

 

[ntg]

Running LO to Watford and running LO to Welwyn and Hertford is a little different though, is it not? Then again, if they're all Oyster zoned in the near future there's little to distinguish them on a transport basis. Will make for an interesting tube map at least.

 

[jon0844]

Surely in the years ahead, there will have to be more work done on the Northern City Line than merely buying a new fleet of 378s (or whatever) and a new livery for whatever operator.

Old Street, for example, would possibly need a lot of work to the platforms, lighting, step-free access etc.

I am sure that there must be some plans for the next 10, 20, 30 years and the current franchises don't make any mention of this yet - but surely the line won't just be left to fall to bits beyond 2020?

 

[tbtc]

Running LO to Watford and running LO to Welwyn and Hertford is a little different though, is it not?

Yes, but the principle has been established (LO running outside "London").

The problem is that railways don't fit neatly into political boundaries (see the mess of ATW as an example).

 

[LE Greys]

What else do you do with the Moorgate services?

They are basically a self contained route (in/around London) that needs dual voltage EMUs, so there are parallels with the LO routes (bearing in mind that LO run to Watford, which is beyond their "borders").

If the Cambridge/Kings Lynn "express" services become part of East Coast (due to running IEP trains) or Greater Anglia (due to serving Cambridge) then there'll be no Thameslink services at Kings Cross (once the existing Peterborough/ Cambridge 'semi fasts" go to the Thameslink tunnel).

(I've seen suggestion of putting a "full" service to Moorgate, though I can't remember where)

So, do you give the Moorgate services to:

• Southern/Thameslink (which will be a massive franchise, with its main focus south of the Thames)?
• Greater Anglia (which it has little to do with)
• LO (who run dual voltage EMUs and already run outside "London")?
• A stand alone franchise (albeit with a fairly small operation, so possibly not very efficient)?

I'm not saying any are "ideal", but you can see why LO are suggested

The fifth possibility is EC, if they decide to merge the eastern half of Northern as well, effectively recreating much of the LNER. However, I reckon that LO would be far more likely. Hopefully, we would see some 378s replacing the elderly 313s that mixed it with Deltics at one time.

 

[387star]

Yes initial thoughts were the SouthEastern franchise would be merged in with Southern.

This would make the Southern franchise as big as South West Trains?

Class 365s on the West Coastway please :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pencilled in to join Greater Anglia.

Really?

 

[tbtc]

The fifth possibility is EC, if they decide to merge the eastern half of Northern as well, effectively recreating much of the LNER. However, I reckon that LO would be far more likely. Hopefully, we would see some 378s replacing the elderly 313s that mixed it with Deltics at one time.

I've suggested that East Coast "get" the Lincolnshire part of EMT and the "stand alone" Heaton services that Northern run. But then that gets into a whole other argument...

The 313s will need replaced in the next few years (regardless of whether LO take over or not) - logically replacement would be best aligned to the 507/508 replacement at Merseyrail (similar types of unit are needed), which would give an order of over 100 units that should be cost effective to build.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Class 365s on the West Coastway please :P

Have they ever run on Third Rail?

(I appreciate that they are capable of doing it, but have they?)

 

[mister-sparky]

Have they ever run on Third Rail?

(I appreciate that they are capable of doing it, but have they?)

they were used by south eastern trains until 2004

 

[tbtc]

they were used by south eastern trains until 2004

Didn't realise, cheers. Presumably replaced by the 375/376s?

 

[traveller1]

When will the franchise specifications for GW be released, e.g. the services that they have to run? Would like to see current Severnside/West Country/Portsmouth services extended west beyond Cardiff to Swansea.

 

[swt_passenger]

When will the franchise specifications for GW be released, e.g. the services that they have to run? Would like to see current Severnside/West Country/Portsmouth services extended west beyond Cardiff to Swansea.

The franchise spec will be issued with the ITT, in May 2012. In previous franchising procedures the spec has been consulted on beforehand - so there should be a 'draft for consultation' pretty soon, if there is to be any time for consultation?

 

[jopsuk]

Running LO to Watford and running LO to Welwyn and Hertford is a little different though, is it not? Then again, if they're all Oyster zoned in the near future there's little to distinguish them on a transport basis. Will make for an interesting tube map at least.

It is. To Watford, other than at Euston, LO to Watford share only with LU Bakerloo. There are trains beyond Herford on that loop, and trains beyond Welwyn that use the slows all the way to Hitchin (the viaduct notwithstanding). Indeed, Moorgate trains go to Letchworth,

Now, this could be cut back. The TL trains, for example, could be recast to stop only at Finsbury Park and Welwyn, and then pick up stops beyond. The trains beyond Hertford North could be set set up to run only fast or semi fast as far as there, and then through beyond- after all, LO do share with other TOCs in South and West and London as well as LU on the Watford DC and in West London. It isn't unworkable.

Whether those that decide these things actually want this is another matter.

 

[HH]

Yes initial thoughts were the SouthEastern franchise would be merged in with Southern.

Connex tried that...

As to those who mentioned Network South East, I can't say that I view that as a shining beacon either.

Something gets lost when organisations get too large.

 

[jon0844]

FCC currently runs a slightly different peak pattern out of King's Cross, to slot in with the slows from Moorgate. It seems to work well, although the semi-fast services can often get stuck between Potters Bar and WGC if the slow has lost time with its head start of around 20 minutes. However, it's not a major disaster and probably doesn't even get classed as late!

Even if one day there was a LO service, using the slow lines, I am sure the new TL service could run similar semi-fast services on the slows, to allow the fast line to remain for Intercity and faster TL services.

However, the problem is that the timings are quite tight and I have this fear that if trains have come from miles away (as against starting out from King's Cross as another train starts from Moorgate) that there will be all sorts of problems - such as the semi-fast getting stuck behind a late running slow, meaning it must crawl behind as the train ahead stops at every single station. Sometimes it can overtake, but not always!

I fear the core will delay many trains in the years ahead, with some disastrous knock-on effects on the ECML.

 

[LE Greys]

FCC currently runs a slightly different peak pattern out of King's Cross, to slot in with the slows from Moorgate. It seems to work well, although the semi-fast services can often get stuck between Potters Bar and WGC if the slow has lost time with its head start of around 20 minutes. However, it's not a major disaster and probably doesn't even get classed as late!

Even if one day there was a LO service, using the slow lines, I am sure the new TL service could run similar semi-fast services on the slows, to allow the fast line to remain for Intercity and faster TL services.

However, the problem is that the timings are quite tight and I have this fear that if trains have come from miles away (as against starting out from King's Cross as another train starts from Moorgate) that there will be all sorts of problems - such as the semi-fast getting stuck behind a late running slow, meaning it must crawl behind as the train ahead stops at every single station. Sometimes it can overtake, but not always!

I fear the core will delay many trains in the years ahead, with some disastrous knock-on effects on the ECML.

Such as an express having a signal check at Welwyn, meaning that it doesn't quite clear the semi-fast before Hitchin, which gets held to keep the line clear. This causes the semi-fast to be slow accross the junction, thus causing an up express to have a signal stop (assuming they haven't built the flyover yet) and checking the next down express. Both down expresses miss their paths through Doncaster and the up express is late into King's Cross, meaning a tight turn-around and possibly a late departure. The result is a house-of-cards effect that ends up with half-hour delays as far afield as Edinburgh. The flyover should mitigate for that, but at least one of the down expresses will still be late at Peterborough at least.

 

[anthony263]

When will the franchise specifications for GW be released, e.g. the services that they have to run? Would like to see current Severnside/West Country/Portsmouth services extended west beyond Cardiff to Swansea.

I wouldn't mind more trains on the line between Swindon & Salisbury and perhaps along the Henbury loop in Bristol perhaps having a complete 30 minutly service on the servern beach branch with some trains every hour/2 hours to severn beach the rest running beyond Avonmouth to Bristol Parkway.

As for extending the Portsmouth/Bristol - Cardiff trains to Swansea I think it is a good idea if FGW have the rolling stock to do it, I know it was suggested extending the Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff servicees to Bridgend via the Val eof Glamorgan line to serve Cardiff Airport.

 

[TheJRB]

I do think it now becomes more of a shame that the new stock wont be Electrostar family though. If the stock had basically just been more 377s, then you would just have one massive fleet of 377s for the new franchise with all the flexibility that entails!

I know it won't happen but they could do what NSE did with the 465s (with BREL and Metro-Cammell as described here) and so specifically define the order that Siemens have to build something so similar that they could work in multiple with 377s. Just a thought.

 

[Minstral25]

I had thought that Southern would remain running South London Metro, Victoria main Line services and the Coastways. That would be a pretty big Franchise compared to many in Passenger numbers, trains and revenues plus would keep competition on the Brighton Main Line.

I guess its all been merged because of the complexity of the major timetable reorganisation South of the river with the Thameslink services starting. A lot of current patterns will change and the Three Bridges signalling centre will go live.

Perhaps they may split it up again later when the lack of control emerges because it is frankly too big. The Victoria services will become second class to ensure the prestige Thameslink trains run on time etc etc

I see the GN services remaining with Thameslink because otherwise the Depots at Hornsey will need to be split between operators which causes additional problems. Stabling trains is a specific issue for franchises in its own right

 

[Zoe]

When will the franchise specifications for GW be released, e.g. the services that they have to run? Would like to see current Severnside/West Country/Portsmouth services extended west beyond Cardiff to Swansea.

This will depend on how they are going to do things this time. If they do the same as for the West Coast franchise then there will simply be a specification for the minimum number of station calls on each route and the times for the first and last trains. The bidders will not be prevented from making additional calls but it wouldn't be a strictly timetabled specification.

 

[Clip]

What else do you do with the Moorgate services?

They are basically a self contained route (in/around London) that needs dual voltage EMUs, so there are parallels with the LO routes (bearing in mind that LO run to Watford, which is beyond their "borders").

If the Cambridge/Kings Lynn "express" services become part of East Coast (due to running IEP trains) or Greater Anglia (due to serving Cambridge) then there'll be no Thameslink services at Kings Cross (once the existing Peterborough/ Cambridge 'semi fasts" go to the Thameslink tunnel).

(I've seen suggestion of putting a "full" service to Moorgate, though I can't remember where)

So, do you give the Moorgate services to:

• Southern/Thameslink (which will be a massive franchise, with its main focus south of the Thames)?
• Greater Anglia (which it has little to do with)
• LO (who run dual voltage EMUs and already run outside "London")?
• A stand alone franchise (albeit with a fairly small operation, so possibly not very efficient)?

I'm not saying any are "ideal", but you can see why LO are suggested

Just because a precedent has been set with regards to the Watford services does not mean that LO should automatically take over other metro services in and around London though does it?

What next? Let them take over the Victoria to London Bridge route? or what about services to Gravesend or Gillingham?Why not alll stops to Bromley south or Orpington? Rr why not just let them take over all stopping services out of london to a new imaginary border somewhere?

It just seems perverse to automatically give TLF/LO metro services out of London because they have already done so on a route or two.

Or are you all being seduced byt the new shiny trains that they have bought and this would satisfy your urge to get a trip on some new shiny trains?

There is never going to be a need for a full weekend service into moorgate as it doesnt get used much off peak anyway so why implement it for a weekend - the only benefit would be for the football but I know there are issues there with over crowding or some such.

And after all - the amount of money that would be spent on rebranding and upgrading of stations and new units could probably be best spent somewhere else on the network anyway