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New GW/TL/ET Franchise Competitions Start

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jon0844

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Drayton Park would need to be rebuilt for the football, which is why Finsbury Park is being upgraded. As for weekend services elsewhere; Moorgate might be dead on a weekend, but have you heard of Shoreditch? Old Street is very busy on both Saturday and Sunday (all day), and also very busy on weeknights (more so on Friday obviously). In fact, the quiet time for Old Street would be during the day in the week - outside of commuter hours. Think Silicon Roundabout too; another reason that this part of town is nothing like what it used to be.

The Northern Line can be very congested there, and the Northern City Line actually offers a useful connection to Finsbury Park for faster services, avoiding the need to go to King's Cross, exit from the tube and walk to your platform (which isn't always fixed for any given service). Simply go to FPK, platform 6 and cross to platform 5 (or perhaps 3 in the future). Much easier, and would be just as useful at weekends.

Of course it doesn't have to become part of LO and that isn't the only way the line will get shiny new trains. In due course, there will be new trains on that line anyway. I'd be happy to have the 313s stay following a Southern-style refurbishment though - nothing wrong with them at all. What's more, they'll last a lot longer than any plastic train that replaces them (imagine a 378 in 35 years time; no on second thoughts, don't!).

One day, these stations from FPK to MOG will need to be upgraded. They have recently been given a clean-up with much brighter lighting, and even new tiles in places, but it still doesn't have voice announcements for next trains! The platforms are quite narrow and there's no step-free access.

I can't speak for all routes out of London, but FCC and TfL had the intention of getting up to a 15 minute service frequency all day, which would allow people up to WGC and Hertford North to receive a 'turn up and go' service. It would make sense for this line, given it has slow lines, to be run more like a LO/Tube service... but it doesn't matter from a passenger perspective who actually operates it.

By next year, Oyster will have been extended and that's perhaps the main thing people will care about.
 
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Clip

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Of course i have heard of shoreditch, I spend most of my non work hours there drinking beer and speaking to women who really should know better then to speak back to me but I also know it has a station itself which also gives links to both north and south routes and also change onto the Vic line at highbury. Oh and its ran by LO too - but you knew that.

And also how are you quantifying that people who use old street station are always going northbound? could it not be that some people could be wanting to use it go south bound to London bridge for connections and trains home also? How can you ascertain that by opening up the moorgate branch on a weekend would actually move the burden on old street to that?

A turn up and go service would be fantastic for those coming south but again how many people actually get off at Finsbury park for easier access into the city from both Vic and Picc lines rather then into the Cross , say on a weekend? From my time at the Cross I know the services were not that heavily laden with people on a friday/saturday to even justify keeping the moorgate branch open at a weekend - which is why, I presume it isnt open.


EDIT: Im not being purposely inflammatory here I just like to ask questions about your reasoning and then how you are measuring stuff by.
 

jon0844

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Yes I know about the LO line, but it's quite a long way from Old Street - right on the edge of Shoreditch and now thriving in its own right.. continuing on towards Clerkenwell/Farringdon.

The new LO route is fine, and proof that there's demand as that is also busy at night (and ends fairly early does it not?).

I was merely talking about northbound in terms of the FCC route, not the tube - which already runs at night and weekends! So, apologies if I didn't make that clear. Moorgate is useful to connect to Liverpool Street (via a very short walk), but I am not sure that many FCC users would go there on a weekend. Of course, trains would have to terminate and start from there - but if you based the justification of weeknight/weekend services, Moorgate would somewhat skew the figures.

Essex Road is also busy at nights/weekends, and Highbury & Islington has good connections (when the Northern Line has been crush loaded due to earlier delays, I'll take a FCC train north and then double back if going into the West End). Drayton Park could probably remain closed, but you'd probably keep it open purely because of the need to change power there. In fact, Drayton Park rarely has anyone using it even in the peaks!

When I started working in Old Street back in 2003, trains ended at around 8pm. Now they end about 10pm and I really do believe that if they did any research now, they'd see they could run trains on to midnight.
 

tbtc

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Just because a precedent has been set with regards to the Watford services does not mean that LO should automatically take over other metro services in and around London though does it?

I'm fairly certain that I never said "automatically" :lol:

What next? Let them take over the Victoria to London Bridge route? or what about services to Gravesend or Gillingham?Why not alll stops to Bromley south or Orpington? Rr why not just let them take over all stopping services out of london to a new imaginary border somewhere?

You're just being silly, and I think you know this...

It just seems perverse to automatically give TLF/LO metro services out of London because they have already done so on a route or two

I've been called "perverse" before, but that's on a more specialist website :p

As I said, when most of the Great Northern services are diverted through the Thameslink "core" (and the fast Cambridge services become IEP run) there is going to be this "rump" left over (the Moorgate services). Its presumably too small for a stand alone franchise, so where would you fit it into? I listed some options - if you want to be that dismissive then please tell me your superior suggestion ;)

Or are you all being seduced byt the new shiny trains that they have bought and this would satisfy your urge to get a trip on some new shiny trains?

The thirty five year old 313s will need replacing at some stage, regardless of who takes over the franchise. The dual voltage/ slim profile EMUs needed can't be cascaded from elsewhere (as there are no "mid-life" units suitable, AFAIK), so it looks like new trains will be required. I'd have thought that was fairly straightforward.

There is never going to be a need for a full weekend service into moorgate as it doesnt get used much off peak anyway so why implement it for a weekend - the only benefit would be for the football but I know there are issues there with over crowding or some such

Chicken and egg. Supply and demand. At the moment its not well used at times, partly because its not *that* frequent (compared to LU) and because it only runs part day on certain days. Not a great advert. Look at how the LO upgrade on other lines has encouraged demand at "quiet" times of the day. Change is possible...
 

LE Greys

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A turn up and go service would be fantastic for those coming south but again how many people actually get off at Finsbury park for easier access into the city from both Vic and Picc lines rather then into the Cross , say on a weekend? From my time at the Cross I know the services were not that heavily laden with people on a friday/saturday to even justify keeping the moorgate branch open at a weekend - which is why, I presume it isnt open.

Me for one, although not so much since they rebuilt King's Cross-St Pancras. It's also easy for getting to London Bridge and all points from there, but the new Thameslink station helps there.
 

HSTEd

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Concentrating the Hertford Loop services at Moorgate full time seems reasonable once you accept that all the other suburban services on the ECML will be taken out of King's Cross by Thameslink.

The stock used on the Hertford Loop line has to be capable of running into Moorgate anyway for weekdays so it is unlikely to be similar to the new Thameslink stock, meanwhile King's Cross is hurting for additional capacity and full time transfer of said Loop trains to Moorgate would clear the suburban platforms for shorter intercity trains (looking at Hull Trains and Grand Central primarily).

The addition of six tracks between Finsbury Park and Alexandria Palace surely allows Hertford Loop trains to be fully segregated from the ECML until they reach Stevenage doesn't it?

Once the segregation occurs the service south of Stevenage (and into Stevenage and to LGC) effectively becomes a stop all stations metro style affair, and such services are apparently going to be increasingly operated by London Overground in the future.
Additionally Thameslink allows the service to Hertford to be increased drastically to a turn up and ride frequency, again something that is associated with LO.

It would also likely be a tacked on withered arm of the new superfranchise, it fits the profile of LO and I'm sure that similar passenger growth to that witnessed with the ELL could be achieved with 6tph to Letchworth Garden City. (would require the third and fourth platforms to actually be fitted out)

The Cl313s will need replacing eventually and the service profile seems to indicate that Cl378s are the most suitable current stock for the job, again something associated primarily with London Overground.
 

swt_passenger

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...and such services are apparently going to be increasingly operated by London Overground in the future.

Only because posters in so many rail forums keep suggesting it, but where's the up to date evidence? There's a lot of wishful thinking about this subject.

It isn't mentioned in TfL's input to the next HLOS, it doesn't appear to be mentioned in the latest franchise OJEU notices, unless there is much more detail yet to come. If it was under serious discussion why isn't it mentioned in the London and SE RUS at all?
 

HSTEd

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Only because posters in so many rail forums keep suggesting it, but where's the up to date evidence? There's a lot of wishful thinking about this subject.

It isn't mentioned in TfL's input to the next HLOS, it doesn't appear to be mentioned in the latest franchise OJEU notices, unless there is much more detail yet to come. If it was under serious discussion why isn't it mentioned in the London and SE RUS at all?

BEcause it has been trending that way since LO came into existance, Watford DC gone, ELL gone, NLL gone, WLL gone, the ELL extension/Inner South London line......
The majority of the stations on the Hertford Loop are either inside "Greater London" or still very much within its sphere of influence.
 

jon0844

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Why did they test a 378 into Moorgate if there isn't at least an outside chance that someone has seen these as a possible successor to the 313s? (Irrespective of who will operate them).

They fit, so they (or a successor from Bombardier) seem like a logical choice. With faster acceleration, I am sure they could even run a little quicker (or have more recovery time if they slip on the way).
 

swt_passenger

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BEcause it has been trending that way since LO came into existance, Watford DC gone, ELL gone, NLL gone, WLL gone, the ELL extension/Inner South London line

Trending that way? :roll:

The DC, NLL and WLL were a job lot formerly known as Silverlink Metro, and the ELL is an extended LU line that would probably work just as efficiently if the northern extension was left as an extension to the third rail network and SN ran it.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why did they test a 378 into Moorgate if there isn't at least an outside chance that someone has seen these as a possible successor to the 313s? (Irrespective of who will operate them).

A 378 (or a Desiro with the same interior layout) would be suitable stock for loads of Metro type routes - and as you say anyone could operate them.

Because a 378 is technically suitable for a particular line doesn't mean they are thinking of operating it under LO. At the end of the day a 378 is just a variant of an Electrostar - it isn't somehow guaranteed to be an LO unit.
 
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DXMachina

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I'm not sure the story about a 378 reaching Moorgate is reliable. Internet results for it just have 'if i recall correctly' or 'they were tested on the quiet' unattributed retellings.

Anyone willing to admit having driven one down the hole?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The GW consulation is here:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-36/great-western-franchise-replacement.pdf
Nothing at all in there suggests any changes to Crossrail are planned (eg towards Reading); and everything mentioned about IEP reflects previous proposals - except a bidder can propose increasing the length of some IEP units.

Well spotted!
I agree the DfT positions on IEP and Crossrail-only-to-Maidenhead look fixed.
Door slightly ajar on Thames Valley branch line electrification.
Increments funded by promoter for first 3 years (the only "Open Access"-related reference).
Vague statements about some future franchise remapping (evidently nothing short-term planned, except maybe withdrawal east of Portsmouth).
The language about franchise length is subtle - scope for a U-turn back to 7 years if the Treasury disagrees?
Nothing on electrification beyond/around Cardiff.
Looks to be heading for Local Authority management of local services (eg Bristol, Devon).
 
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