West Yorkshire bus franchising

[Whisky Papa]

Wasn't that was long after Rider when the national numbers came in circa 2003/4? First being First not only did it piecemeal but most internal systems weren't setup to take them, so fuel and in some places radios had to keep "local I.Ds" for a couple of years. I always thought it was just a kneejerk come vanity project because Stagecoach had done it but it was done just totally the wrong way!

I quit First Calderline in the spring of 2003 and there had been no mention of renumbering from the Metro-derived numbering system at that point. I guess it must have been a little while later I recall seeing the existing fleet with new five digit numbers, before the local routes went low-floor with a new fleet.

 

[Leyland Bus]

I quit First Calderline in the spring of 2003 and there had been no mention of renumbering from the Metro-derived numbering system at that point. I guess it must have been a little while later I recall seeing the existing fleet with new five digit numbers, before the local routes went low-floor with a new fleet.

It was done fleet by fleet, so quite slowly. I started with First Manchester in Jan '05 and they had 5 digits by then, you must have left just before. Infact, it led to some oddities. First PMT was IIRC the first fleet done. They had some ex GM Olympians which were renumbered. They were then sent back to Manchester, who gave them their original 4 digit numbers back and then had to give them their "original" 5 digit numbers back thus making them out of sequence with their siblings!! Totally mad!

I remember First Huddersfield Atlanteans getting 5 digit numbers but forget when they finally came off as 30999 ANA 557Y & 30998 A737 NNA went on loan to Leeds after they were withdrawn by Huddersfield...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was done fleet by fleet, so quitr slowly. I started with First Manchester in Jan '05 and they had 5 digits by then. Infact, it led to some oddities. First PMT was IIRC the first fleet done. They had some ex GM Olympians which were renumbered. They were then sent back to Manchester, who gave them their original numbers back and then had to give them their "original" 5 digit numbers back thus making them out of sequence with their siblings!! Totally mad!

I remember First Huddersfield Atlanteans getting 5 digit numbers but forget when they finally came off...

It was about 2002 to 2003 and yes, you're right that PMT and Manchester were the ones treated first. One oddity is that Solos were numbered in the midi series 4**** initially. However, as the role out continued, later adoptees such as West Yorkshire numbered them in the 5**** mini series.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah... who'd have thought that George Osborne, the Conservative architect of austerity, would enact a policy of reregulation and away from market forces. A Damascene conversion.... or something else?

The profit had been privatised, so it was time to nationalise the losses.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 19:59 ==

return it back to how it was

It was working so well before. That’s why there was widespread opposition to the franchising regime.

Oh, wait…

 

[SCH117X]

Franchising is here to stay for some time. York & North Yorkshire is to pilot franchising rural bus services which could spell a interesting time for one operator as the biggest gripe of rural parish councils is even if they do have a service to some reasonable extent is the lack of an evening service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The profit had been privatised, so it was time to nationalise the losses.

This was 2015 and wasn't the issue was that Stagecoach were making too much money?

My suspicion was it was a way of pushing the responsibility and the liability for it to local government - no BSOG, no ENCTS funding, all pushed to local taxpayers. Then something happened in 2016.... and George was gone.

Franchising is here to stay for some time. York & North Yorkshire is to pilot franchising rural bus services which could spell a interesting time for one operator as the biggest gripe of rural parish councils is even if they do have a service to some reasonable extent is the lack of an evening service.

Ah yes - if only there was an evening service then we'd use it...

 

[SCH117X]

Ah yes - if only there was an evening service then we'd use it...

Theres been a 2055 24 from Harrogate to Pateley Bridge, 2155 return, for some time now on Fridays and Saturdays so an equivalent could work on other rural routes

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Theres been a 2055 24 from Harrogate to Pateley Bridge, 2155 return, for some time now on Fridays and Saturdays so an equivalent could work on other rural routes

It really does depend when and where. They were introduced on the X93 and succeeded yet evening services on the 34 from Richmond to Darlington didn't. Nor did they up Swaledale and that too was only on a Friday and Saturday.

 

[Ballyheigue]

It really does depend when and where. They were introduced on the X93 and succeeded yet evening services on the 34 from Richmond to Darlington didn't. Nor did they up Swaledale and that too was only on a Friday and Saturday.

Well no surprise there, a night out in Darlington, or a night out in Harrogate, Scarborough or Whitby, I know which of the four will be the most appealing lol. Swaledale services I am surprised at however given Richmond ain't too bad for it's pubs.

 

[Deerfold]

It was working so well before. That’s why there was widespread opposition to the franchising regime.

Oh, wait…

I can't see public opinion changing by 2028, no matter what improvements or worsening we see. If things have got worse (which would surprise me) then it might affect the 2032 election.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The Weaver Network won't have been fully rolled out by May 2028 anyway. Areas like Calderdale will still be under the current system until Autumn of that year under current time frames. So the public won't have a proper opinion on the full network at the time of the election. By 2032, the public will have had 4 years to experience the network and any changes brought about by it to shape a positive or negative opinion towards the network which could influence their vote in 2032.

 

[Andyh82]

I can't see public opinion changing by 2028, no matter what improvements or worsening we see. If things have got worse (which would surprise me) then it might affect the 2032 election.

I don’t think things will get worse but people are expecting things to get better that isn’t under the mayor’s control

People say the buses are ‘always late’ blaming the operator for not arriving on time - will franchising reduce the traffic delays?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I don’t think things will get worse but people are expecting things to get better that isn’t under the mayor’s control

People say the buses are ‘always late’ blaming the operator for not arriving on time - will franchising reduce the traffic delays?

I think this is a very important point. The public are expecting (and have been told) that buses will get better thanks to franchising. If they don't, the public will see it as a failure. Buses getting worse and buses not seeing any sort of improvements will both be branded as a failing of Weaver Network by the general public. 2028 is too soon with the network not being fully rolled out across West Yorkshire but by 2032, the public will be expecting to see improvements to buses.

 

[mattb7tl]

I think this is a very important point. The public are expecting (and have been told) that buses will get better thanks to franchising. If they don't, the public will see it as a failure. Buses getting worse and buses not seeing any sort of improvements will both be branded as a failing of Weaver Network by the general public. 2028 is too soon with the network not being fully rolled out across West Yorkshire but by 2032, the public will be expecting to see improvements to buses.

The public are more reasonable than you think they are not magically expecting buses to run on time. Manchester subreddit is an example of how the general public react to franchising not many have any negative comments to say and when you do find a negative comment it tends to be from an enthusiast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/comments/1j9oavp/what_are_your_feelings_about_beenetwork_so_far/

 

[YorkRailFan]

The public are more reasonable than you think they are not magically expecting buses to run on time. Manchester subreddit is an example of how the general public react to franchising not many have any negative comments to say and when you do find a negative comment it tends to be from an enthusiast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/comments/1j9oavp/what_are_your_feelings_about_beenetwork_so_far/

It doesn't have to be buses running on time. It can be improvements to the vehicles themselves, improvements to frequency, etc. Any improvement that Brabin has said will come about as a result of franchising.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s the same with rail nationalisation, when anyone such as a news programme asks anyone in the street the main thing they will say is ‘they are never on time’ and they blame the operator for 100% of delays

 

[SCH117X]

A simple improvement will be sensible timetabling rather than either ignoring congestion or overly padding out the timetable

 

[YorkRailFan]

A simple improvement will be sensible timetabling rather than either ignoring congestion or overly padding out the timetable

Well getting rid of First's AI timetables would be a big improvement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don’t think things will get worse but people are expecting things to get better that isn’t under the mayor’s control

People say the buses are ‘always late’ blaming the operator for not arriving on time - will franchising reduce the traffic delays?

It depends what people mean when they say everyone expects things to get better.

No, the buses won't magically always run on time. Although plenty of the most common delay issues are within the operator's control, of course not all of them are.

But, as we've seen in Manchester, things do improve. There's more coordination of bus services, there's better integrated ticketing, there's improved evening and Sunday services, there's a spruce up of the vehicles themselves, and there are actual consequences for operators if they don't operate what they say they will operate.

Reversing First's hidden PVR cuts AI timetables will be a good start.

Both First West Yorkshire and Arriva Yorkshire have been absolutely abysmal for years and years and years. First West Yorkshire in particular have been awful, especially in Bradford: the latest cuts to services in Shipley and Bingley earlier this year just followed fifteen years of bacon-slicing of services. Maybe Bradford isn't brilliant bus territory but over in Keighley, which is part of the Bradford City Council area and is as rough and as deprived as anywhere, Transdev manage to profitably run a decent network with generally well-presented buses.

Franchising in West Yorkshire will be a significant improvement. First and Arriva are so bad that it can't not be an improvement, the floor is so low.

 

[Steve440]

No, the buses won't magically always run on time. Although plenty of the most common delay issues are within the operator's control, of course not all of them are.

One of the problems at Huddersfield is drivers parked up at the back wall of the bus station until departure time and only then moving on to the stand. This quite often results in the service running about five or more minutes late once all the passengers have boarded. maybe the drivers are not paid until departure time so perhaps this could be looked at and improved.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don’t think things will get worse but people are expecting things to get better that isn’t under the mayor’s control

People say the buses are ‘always late’ blaming the operator for not arriving on time - will franchising reduce the traffic delays?

Tbh WYCA's tram plans could help solve traffic issues in the busiest areas, by encouraging modal shift.
In other areas, further segregated busways (not necessarily guided) is probably the easiest way, and it should be much easier to get services to actually use the new/pre-existing infrastructure.

 

[John HG1]

One of the ways to improve reliability and make the bus seem a more attractive option is by introducing more bus lanes, bus gates, priority junctions and limited private vehicle access. This could be done already by the authorities that want to take control and Make Things Better. So why don't they? Is it because there are no votes in restricting the private motorist? Such changes could be made far more quickly and an awful lot cheaper than a tram which would only benefit a limited number of communities.

 

[Steve440]

One of the ways to improve reliability and make the bus seem a more attractive option is by introducing more bus lanes, bus gates, priority junctions and limited private vehicle access. This could be done already by the authorities that want to take control and Make Things Better. So why don't they? Is it because there are no votes in restricting the private motorist? Such changes could be made far more quickly and an awful lot cheaper than a tram which would only benefit a limited number of communities.

This is one of the arguments in favour of franchising. Authorities restricting private vehicle access only improve things for private operators whereas under franchising it would be the authorities themselves who reaped any rewards from faster running times due to less traffic.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is one of the arguments in favour of franchising. Authorities restricting private vehicle access only improve things for private operators whereas under franchising it would be the authorities themselves who reaped any rewards from faster running times due to less traffic.

I don't know if you've misinterpreted the line from @John HG1.

I think he's referring to restricting access to the private motorist (i.e. everyone other than public transport whether that public transport is franchised or otherwise).

You don't need franchising to improve bus priority and to restrict access to the private car and it's no shock to see the places with the healthiest bus operations are ones who have implemented bus priority coupled with limiting private car use.

 

[AlastairFraser]

One of the ways to improve reliability and make the bus seem a more attractive option is by introducing more bus lanes, bus gates, priority junctions and limited private vehicle access. This could be done already by the authorities that want to take control and Make Things Better. So why don't they? Is it because there are no votes in restricting the private motorist? Such changes could be made far more quickly and an awful lot cheaper than a tram which would only benefit a limited number of communities.

The issue in some parts of West Yorks is that segregated busways/bus lanes have already been tried, but they have not always been used effectively because the private operator considers them ineffective (partly due to intermittent use, or insufficient length overall), or deteriorating traffic/congestion issues elsewhere reduce the utility of the improvements.