1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Chiltern 165]

The biggest passenger issue they fixed during that work was replacing the many collapsed seat cushions - sadly at the moment that's back to being really common on ones I've ridden lately.

Almost every priority seat has collapsed cushions (atleast previously).

By the time the 92 stock is complete, they may as well skip the 96 stock refurb as they will be end of life!

Because TfL LOVES retiring trains when they should

 

[Russel]

Because TfL LOVES retiring trains when they should

Yeah fair point!

 

[mrmartin]

Its amazing - but not unique to LUL - that what used to be regarded as ‘routine’ - ranging from overhaul and repaint to a seat retrim is now regarded as a ‘project’ rather than a routine exercise. Interesting that on buses, where the operation is of course contracted, TfL require a ‘refurb’ (panels, repaint, retrim etc) of buses typically at 7 years and can do so because there is no ‘direct’ cost to them (though clearly it gets built into contract prices). Hence the buses - generally - are cleaner and smarter than tubes. But on LUL everything is seemingly reliant on a ‘bid’ for money to carry out what in many cases should be routine works (I’m not including accessibility mods in this).

Agreed. Also TfL requires even minicabs can't be 10 years old!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 01:22 ==

CLIP budget is currently £500 million. Piccadilly line stock was £1.5 billion in 2018 money, assuming same number of trains on the central line it would be £1.4 billion, or £1.9 billion in today’s money according to the inflation rate. The reality is the cost could be higher depending on the terms of the options TfL has.

This doesn’t include the cost of altering infrastructure for the trains, such as change in swept path. For the Piccadilly line this has made the total cost of the programme £3.4 billion.

Doesn't seem like a good deal to me? £500m for maybe 15 years (if you are lucky) vs £2bn for a new fleet which should last triple that, plus you don't have the very high risk of huge cancellations in the project going wrong that we've seen. (Though in fairness given the huge amount of issues all recent tfl fleets have had, maybe not quite as clear cut as it should be). And you do have to spend the money eventually anyway!

And surely it's possible to order trains that don't require loads of infrastructure changes with enough collaboration?

 

[RUK]

CLIP budget is currently £500 million. Piccadilly line stock was £1.5 billion in 2018 money, assuming same number of trains on the central line it would be £1.4 billion, or £1.9 billion in today’s money according to the inflation rate. The reality is the cost could be higher depending on the terms of the options TfL has.

This doesn’t include the cost of altering infrastructure for the trains, such as change in swept path. For the Piccadilly line this has made the total cost of the programme £3.4 billion.

Bear in mind that the Central line trains will be longer, probably 11-car to make them at least the length of the 1992 Stock, as opposed to the 9-car 2024 Stock on the Piccadilly line, which will presumably make the Central line trains more expensive on a per-train basis - I don’t know whether or not you accounted for that in your calculation.

 

[sh24]

Any costs will have increased by much more than inflation - inputs like steel, aluminium, copper, electronics are typically 50 to 200% more expensive than 2020.

 

[Benjwri]

Bear in mind that the Central line trains will be longer, probably 11-car to make them at least the length of the 1992 Stock, as opposed to the 9-car 2024 Stock on the Piccadilly line, which will presumably make the Central line trains more expensive on a per-train basis - I don’t know whether or not you accounted for that in your calculation.

No I did not account for this, good point.

 

[Recessio]

Agreed. Also TfL requires even minicabs can't be 10 years old!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 01:22 ==


Doesn't seem like a good deal to me? £500m for maybe 15 years (if you are lucky) vs £2bn for a new fleet which should last triple that, plus you don't have the very high risk of huge cancellations in the project going wrong that we've seen. (Though in fairness given the huge amount of issues all recent tfl fleets have had, maybe not quite as clear cut as it should be). And you do have to spend the money eventually anyway!

And surely it's possible to order trains that don't require loads of infrastructure changes with enough collaboration?

But also that's £0.5bn now versus £2.0bn now - in the short-term world of politics and funding cycles, that's a future TfL's problem 15 years down the line

 

[Benjwri]

But also that's £0.5bn now versus £2.0bn now - in the short-term world of politics and funding cycles, that's a future TfL's problem 15 years down the line

I would argue TfL isn’t that bad about planning ahead these days, and it’s more £0.5bn ‘now’ is a lot easier to raise with local government financing rules, and is actually spread over a far longer period than the cost of a new fleet.

 

[WH241]

I just hope the rolling stock has a decent service life once fully refurbished. I seem to recall the D stock had a fairly short service life after refurbishment.

 

[bramling]

I just hope the rolling stock has a decent service life once fully refurbished. I seem to recall the D stock had a fairly short service life after refurbishment.

IIRC the D stock refurbishment was somewhat downscaled compared to earlier plans for this reason. Compared to something like the 73 stock it ended up being a largely cosmetic refurb.

 

[announcements]

The D stock seemed fairly substantive to me when you consider the new flooring, grab poles, CIS, seating, exterior work and windows being added to car ends.

 

[Dstock7080]

The D stock seemed fairly substantive to me when you consider the new flooring, grab poles, CIS, seating, exterior work and windows being added to car ends.

D Stock refurbishment was planned to be much more substantive. Compared with the trial refurbished unit 7008, the draught screens were not altered, the ventilation ducting remained unchanged and the lighting remained in the same position. The driver’s desk was also not updated as planned.

 

[Nym]

D Stock refurbishment was planned to be much more substantive. Compared with the trial refurbished unit 7008, the draught screens were not altered, the ventilation ducting remained unchanged and the lighting remained in the same position. The driver’s desk was also not updated as planned.

There were also plans to completely re-wire the D78 stock as per the 1973TS with the LUL/RSE/024 Part.6 cables to replace the old RME spec cables, this was also shelved.

It wasn't in too bad of a condition on the single core cables when it was converted to the RAT, but all of the screened cables were completely life expired so perhaps a partial re-wire could have been in order.

 

[announcements]

D Stock refurbishment was planned to be much more substantive. Compared with the trial refurbished unit 7008, the draught screens were not altered, the ventilation ducting remained unchanged and the lighting remained in the same position. The driver’s desk was also not updated as planned.

And even the D stock trains in service today have kept the same lighting and vent grilles; I saw nothing wrong with them to need changing.

 

[Russel]

Finally managed to catch a refurbished 92 stock today, internally, they look fairly good, from a distance.

The new moquette is smart, but it seems the budget didn't stretch to new seat bases to go under it, they seem to have reupholstered the collapsed bases that were already there.

 

[WH241]

Finally managed to catch a refurbished 92 stock today, internally, they look fairly good, from a distance.

The new moquette is smart, but it seems the budget didn't stretch to new seat bases to go under it, they seem to have reupholstered the collapsed bases that were already there.

Do you happen to know how many trains have been done? I only mainly use the Central Line at weekends and have yet to see a refurbished train.

 

[Dstock7080]

Do you happen to know how many trains have been done? I only mainly use the Central Line at weekends and have yet to see a refurbished train.

Five have been released for service.

 

[RUK]

Do you happen to know how many trains have been done? I only mainly use the Central Line at weekends and have yet to see a refurbished train.

5 out of 85 is 5.88 %.

 

[notverydeep]

Number 6 should be in the next few weeks (I think it’s already moved from Acton to Ruislip for outstanding maintenance) and number 7 isn’t to far behind…

 

[Russel]

Number 6 should be in the next few weeks (I think it’s already moved from Acton to Ruislip for outstanding maintenance) and number 7 isn’t to far behind…

While it's good to see a bit of movement, 7 trains out of 85 in 5+ years isn't something to be boasting about.

 

[announcements]

Hear, hear! Remember back in the 1990s when only 3x 1972MkIs were refurbed before they ceased the job knowing the 1995s were on the way? Surely it isn't too late to cease CLIP?

 

[bramling]

Hear, hear! Remember back in the 1990s when only 3x 1972MkIs were refurbed before they ceased the job knowing the 1995s were on the way? Surely it isn't too late to cease CLIP?

The problem is that if CLIP was to be ceased then we again run into the issue as to whether the 92 stock can actually fulfil the lifespan expected of it, not helped by no one knowing that that expected lifespan might be. Remember that at one point not so long ago availability dipped so far that over half the fleet was unavailable.

Ditching CLIP would be a risky strategy especially with no firm plan for replacement, and of course replacement is complicated by whether it would be prudent to combine this with replacing the 1990s signalling.

Even if a replacement plan was finalised and put in place today then it would be several years before the first new trains are able to enter service, which brings us back to the question of how long the 92 stock would be able to hold up. Having said that, they seem to have managed to scrape through the 2020s somewhat against the odds so far, albeit hardly providing the best possible service.

 

[announcements]

I wonder if the curves at and around Bank play a part? It can't be good for the wear and tear.

 

[GFE]

Unfortunately TFL doesn't have the financial stability, Commercial/business strength or leadership continuity for Asset management to work as it in truly envisaged.
There are no up-to-date asset plans or key measures of current state, don't even seem to be a proactive member of COMET (association of transport operators to share experience/ good practice)

 

[bramling]

I wonder if the curves at and around Bank play a part? It can't be good for the wear and tear.

I’d say it’s more down to ATO and the generally intensive way the trains are worked and utilised. The DC traction package just doesn’t seem sufficiently robust to be able to handle the demands made of it. Furthermore, AIUI the root cause of the perennial traction motor flashover issue never seems to have been fully pinned down despite having been going on for many years.

What it all comes down to is that the stock just isn’t robust enough to cope with its duty cycle, and never really has been.

 

[GFE]

Yes the 92 stock was probably the first of a new generation with so many electronic systems, regen braking, ATO, outsourced design etc.
The life cycle of such systems is unsurprisingly complex and a learning experience.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Hear, hear! Remember back in the 1990s when only 3x 1972MkIs were refurbed before they ceased the job knowing the 1995s were on the way? Surely it isn't too late to cease CLIP?

CLIP is a high profile project in TfL. Equivalent to HS2 or Crossrail. Even the mayor Sadiq Khan is involved. It's too big to cease.

Central Line chaos laid bare as Sadiq Khan apologises for severe delays

London Underground's busiest line has been operating at times with barely half of the 78 trains required to run peak service

www.standard.co.uk

Full details of the cause of the chaos on the Central line can be revealed as Mayor Sadiq Khan on Friday apologised to passengers for weeks of delays and overcrowding.

 

[Benjwri]

The realistic answer is that TfL does not have enough money to fund a replacement fleet alongside the Bakerloo right now. CLIP is still the best option for overall resilience, if you accept that a new Central line fleet is not feasible in the remaining lifespan of the 92 Stock without CLIP.

 

[Wolfie]

The realistic answer is that TfL does not have enough money to fund a replacement fleet alongside the Bakerloo right now. CLIP is still the best option for overall resilience, if you accept that a new Central line fleet is not feasible in the remaining lifespan of the 92 Stock without CLIP.

Sounds about right.

 

[Recessio]

Hear, hear! Remember back in the 1990s when only 3x 1972MkIs were refurbed before they ceased the job knowing the 1995s were on the way? Surely it isn't too late to cease CLIP?

So having spent all the money and all the time that some of the trains are now underway, now you think would be the time to cancel it - when, as others have said, there isn't a realistic option to replace the 92s and they won't survive without any work being done? It seems daft to me to chuck away all the time and money, the programme might as well be seen through now.