Wales Bus Services

[TheGrandWazoo]

All your examples are sadly examples of austerity. All contribute to an area feeling neglected and you're right it's seen all across the country. Potholes being an obvious complaint. I think what struck me about visiting the smaller places in Wales was all the grand buildings everywhere but falling apart and abandoned and abandoned industry littered across the former mining areas. Sad how nothing seemed to replace what was lost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2026 ==


I just get the impression in some parts of the country, different operators 'compete' for the sake of it which seriously risks turning a reasonably used route into a marginal one, as there isn't that much demand in reality for it to be divided. So 1 route can make reasonable money, but a 2nd one undercutting it and deliberately running 5 or 10 minutes means both could fail, which is really disruptive. https://busandtrainuser.com/2026/01/13/go-bus-has-another-go-at-arriva/

This example in Kent is exactly what I'm talking about and instead of the 'competitor' offering something useful and new, seems to be lazily trying to run the incumbent off the road which in the long run leads to a much worse service in the area and even less people using it.

I think the issue with deregulation is nothing is planned out and in busy towns and cities, there needs to be at least some coordination between bus routes. So it's not about running less buses where they are needed, but ensuring a more even service runs across a wider area. That is a planning issue.

Just wondering if there's anyone here who lives in Wales who could compare the services that exist now to what existed before deregulation and see what changed, what's better, what's worse etc. Just in most places, it led to more fragmented services, more expensive, gaps in the network (especially cross-boundary) and a lack of accountability. But that's how it seems in cities at least. I think the loss of cross-subsidy was bad for buses too.

Bus services in Wales, as per the rest of the U.K., have been in decline since the mid 1950s.

Rather than looking for information that supports a pre-conceived dogmatic and skewed version of events, look at things in totality.

 

[markymark2000]

All your examples are sadly examples of austerity. All contribute to an area feeling neglected and you're right it's seen all across the country. Potholes being an obvious complaint. I think what struck me about visiting the smaller places in Wales was all the grand buildings everywhere but falling apart and abandoned and abandoned industry littered across the former mining areas. Sad how nothing seemed to replace what was lost.

Low patronage means people don't want to travel on those services, and why should taxpayers keep throwing money at services that people don't want to use? You'd create far less emissions and probably have much more fun if you went around burning £50 notes. A bus services that is poorly used essentially is just creating congestion.

You also raise a good point that most of Wales is falling apart. Why is that? Politics and the Welsh Government. Why then if you are seeing these areas fall apart, mostly as a result of failing government policies or poor funding in some way, why is bringing buses into government control going to make things any better? Most of the issues are caused by these numpties in the first place?

Just wondering if there's anyone here who lives in Wales who could compare the services that exist now to what existed before deregulation and see what changed, what's better, what's worse etc. Just in most places, it led to more fragmented services, more expensive, gaps in the network (especially cross-boundary) and a lack of accountability. But that's how it seems in cities at least. I think the loss of cross-subsidy was bad for buses too.

While I don't officially live in Wales, I have significant connections to Wales due to work and family. And for the past 20+ years, I have lived less than 10 miles from the border.

I can't speak about pre Dereg, what I will say is that all of the issues you are raising as issues with deregulation, have only become much more prevalent over the past 10 years because of idiocy within local authorities. Local authorities in Wales simply don't employ anyone with any transport background in their transport departments anymore, and so even basic things such as creating a timetable for a tender, they are somehow even incapable of sorting.

Spoiler: Example

As proven with Anglesey Council who pays for buses to extend to Coleg Llangefni even during College Holidays and do school day diversions on Saturdays. Or you can look at Powys Council with their changes in September they 'forgot' to put routes out to tender.

There is also a vast increase in how stuck up council staff have become at most Welsh authorities (perhaps not all staff, but certainly the ones who I've come across have been shocking). Even when they quite clearly have no clue what they are on about, they will do their upmost to cover up their own incompetence and wasteful spending.

Spoiler: Example

This much is evident with Flintshire Council paying Arriva silly sums of money to run the 11A just minutes ahead of their commercial 11 service, but pleading poverty, and on a number of instances over the past 5-10 years refusing to work with Cheshire West Council and been hell bent on cutting cross border journeys (There was a whole debacle with the DB1 in 2018/19 when Flintshire refused to work with Cheshire West and started tendering separate services so as not to work with Cheshire West. They also had the 9 to Chester Countess Hospital which was used by nurses who lived in Flintshire as well as used for people attending appointments as the Countess is the closest hospital for Shotton/Queensferry/Connahs Quay).
There was also the wonderful situation with the new 5 services, whereby despite funding duplicate school buses on the route for 2 years during Covid, claimed to not know that school kids were using the bus and so had to rewrite timetables to suit when they were made aware. (I'm no genius but either they knew it was used by school kids, hence the duplicate buses in Covid. Or they are admitting to wasting money for 2 years on duplicate school buses on a route that, as far as you believe, doesn't take school kids. You can't be both aware and not aware of the school kids who use the route. And sure any basic due diligence into the route would have uncovered that?).

Combine this with a lack of accountability. I can't count the number of times I and others (where details have been shared) have made a formal complaint about the councils transport teams actions and attitudes, and then the transport team become the ones investigating the complaint into their own incompetence! One email that I became privy to, someone even reported a member of staff in a Welsh council for being complicit in a fraud, and the investigating officer was the accused! If you dare to catch them out on something they say too, they simply ignore you and hope you go away because that is easier than it is to admit that they were wrong.

Throw all of this together. Inexperienced council staff, who can't even manage to do the basic parts of the job, who waste endless sums of taxpayers money on nonsense which no one asked for but simultaneously shelve transformative projects and scrap routes which people do actually use, who when complained about they carry out their own investigations on themselves.


Does that shed a good light on things for you as to why Wales has such a "fragmented bus network, which has so many cross boundary gaps in the network, with a lack of accountability"?

 

[aron2smith]

Low patronage means people don't want to travel on those services, and why should taxpayers keep throwing money at services that people don't want to use? You'd create far less emissions and probably have much more fun if you went around burning £50 notes. A bus services that is poorly used essentially is just creating congestion.

You also raise a good point that most of Wales is falling apart. Why is that? Politics and the Welsh Government. Why then if you are seeing these areas fall apart, mostly as a result of failing government policies or poor funding in some way, why is bringing buses into government control going to make things any better? Most of the issues are caused by these numpties in the first place?

Bit of a difference between the routes that carry handfuls of people (but not enough to be commercial like late evenings and Sundays or rural routes) and those that carry nothing, don't you think? There does need to be a certain level of bus services to have confidence to use them I think. Leaving things fully to the market clearly doesn't work if we want comprehensive services.

What I don't understand about transport, especially buses, is why they don't advertise themselves more? Should be front and centre when someone new moves to an area or stays on holiday. In a welcome pack, these are the bus services and timetables, there is the rail station, it runs to A and B at X frequency, local businesses do a lot better on this stuff. Even just finding a complete public transport map for all counties in Wales is nearly impossible! The lack of publicity is astounding and yet whoever runs the Sherpa service seems to have made a real success of it.

Also 1bws was a great initiative in the north of the country.

As for Welsh government, they clearly haven't demanded enough or had much will to get anything from us in London. Maybe this year will be a rude awakening for Welsh Labour. It surprises me how little investment Wales, even Cardiff gets, while industries and tourism seem underdeveloped compared to everywhere else.

Combine this with a lack of accountability. I can't count the number of times I and others (where details have been shared) have made a formal complaint about the councils transport teams actions and attitudes, and then the transport team become the ones investigating the complaint into their own incompetence! One email that I became privy to, someone even reported a member of staff in a Welsh council for being complicit in a fraud, and the investigating officer was the accused! If you dare to catch them out on something they say too, they simply ignore you and hope you go away because that is easier than it is to admit that they were wrong.

Throw all of this together. Inexperienced council staff, who can't even manage to do the basic parts of the job, who waste endless sums of taxpayers money on nonsense which no one asked for but simultaneously shelve transformative projects and scrap routes which people do actually use, who when complained about they carry out their own investigations on themselves.

Does that shed a good light on things for you as to why Wales has such a "fragmented bus network, which has so many cross boundary gaps in the network, with a lack of accountability"?

Also thanks for the context, seems shameful how Flintshire acted! That silo thinking is no good for anyone and us everyday people suffer. The rest is sheer incompetence (corruption too from the sounds of it), but seems all too likely with underfunded and overstretched councils. The experienced senior staff leave or had enough and that wealth of knowledge is lost forever. Seems to happen in the civil service too. Not saying publicly run buses will magically fix things, but the status quo is very unsatisfactory and we can't stand still. Something has to change.

Sounds like Welsh councils need to be held to better standards and work better with neighbouring councils while working with professionals to gain experience in what they want to do.

TFW has Vernon Everitt (helped create the Bee Network) working for them, who seems like a good person to have on board. https://www.gov.wales/new-transport-wales-chair-announced

Definitely sounds like long austerity broke how things worked for a long time.

 

[RT4038]

Combine this with a lack of accountability. I can't count the number of times I and others (where details have been shared) have made a formal complaint about the councils transport teams actions and attitudes, and then the transport team become the ones investigating the complaint into their own incompetence! One email that I became privy to, someone even reported a member of staff in a Welsh council for being complicit in a fraud, and the investigating officer was the accused! If you dare to catch them out on something they say too, they simply ignore you and hope you go away because that is easier than it is to admit that they were wrong.

Throw all of this together. Inexperienced council staff, who can't even manage to do the basic parts of the job, who waste endless sums of taxpayers money on nonsense which no one asked for but simultaneously shelve transformative projects and scrap routes which people do actually use, who when complained about they carry out their own investigations on themselves.

else.

Also thanks for the context, seems shameful how Flintshire acted! That silo thinking is no good for anyone and us everyday people suffer. The rest is sheer incompetence (corruption too from the sounds of it), but seems all too likely with underfunded and overstretched councils. The experienced senior staff leave or had enough and that wealth of knowledge is lost forever. Seems to happen in the civil service too. Not saying publicly run buses will magically fix things, but the status quo is very unsatisfactory and we can't stand still. Something has to change.

This is making a huge assumption that the person(s) doing the criticising understand the reasons and circumstances behind the decisions that have been made (or not made), and of the effect of resource and of local politics? The Local Authority staff may well be operating under pressures completely unseen by outsiders, who are quite likely jumping to conclusions without the full understanding and knowledge and adding two and two to make forty-six. Whilst it may well be true that Local Authorities have a quantity of inexperienced staff - after all, there are not that many people around actually interested in buses, and even fewer who ride in them, and who wish to work amongst lots of other people not interested in, or who have any care, about buses (those that are may well not be temperamentally suitable for employment in those roles) - the bus companies are generally no better either. What staff there are with a wealth of knowledge are often overloaded with work and probably many not so far from retirement, or can be enticed elsewhere. Let's face it - annoying that it may be, but buses are generally a distressed purchase and (outside of the big conurbations) bus travel is a very low priority in the minds of the vast majority of Voters, Adminstrators and Politicians.

 

[aron2smith]

This is making a huge assumption that the person(s) doing the criticising understand the reasons and circumstances behind the decisions that have been made (or not made), and of the effect of resource and of local politics? The Local Authority staff may well be operating under pressures completely unseen by outsiders, who are quite likely jumping to conclusions without the full understanding and knowledge and adding two and two to make forty-six. Whilst it may well be true that Local Authorities have a quantity of inexperienced staff - after all, there are not that many people around actually interested in buses, and even fewer who ride in them, and who wish to work amongst lots of other people not interested in, or who have any care, about buses (those that are may well not be temperamentally suitable for employment in those roles) - the bus companies are generally no better either. What staff there are with a wealth of knowledge are often overloaded with work and probably many not so far from retirement, or can be enticed elsewhere. Let's face it - annoying that it may be, but buses are generally a distressed purchase and (outside of the big conurbations) bus travel is a very low priority in the minds of the vast majority of Voters, Adminstrators and Politicians.

They should care though, better public transport is an easy way of improving a council area and doing things and projects that make an area more pleasant to be in. Same with making somewhere nicer to walk through. Even in rural areas, traffic is enough of a problem, that it has to be restricted in places. People should add 2 and 2 together. Even if it's not specifically buses, they should always be aware of how people will travel, especially in new developments as more cars and more traffic and more roads are not a solution.

Trains and cycling rightly get attention, but buses are still the workhorse of transport. About time they got better recognition.

 

[markymark2000]

Leaving things fully to the market clearly doesn't work if we want comprehensive services.

And yet you continue to bash the market despite ENDLESS examples of where the issues are with local authorities and governments. How many more things are you going to come up with to blame the market for, when there has been umpteeen examples given to you to show that it's numpties in councils and governments who are causing most issues. Operators aren't faultless, but blaming them for things which are not their fault, make YOU part of the problem. That is exactly what politicians and councillors have been doing for years and all it does is worsen working relations, and make it harder for solutions to come about.

Also 1bws was a great initiative in the north of the country.

Agreed. But all of the authorities, including TFW, on the pages about 1Bws have at least 1 bit of information missing or out of date.

Definitely sounds like long austerity broke how things worked for a long time.

Austerity while perhaps an issue, is no excuse for the fact that when the authorities do get the money they need, they waste it on nonsense rather than investing it into things that people actually want or need. Throwing money at an incompetent organisation, doesn't suddenly make it competent. It just gives numpties more money to waste. Exactly as proven in Flintshire. More money didn't solve their problems, it made them worse as they are using it to compete with commercial services. Then they will plead poverty and blame private companies when the commercial routes cease due to the council funded routes taking the money and passengers from the commercial routes.

The Local Authority staff may well be operating under pressures completely unseen by outsiders, who are quite likely jumping to conclusions without the full understanding and knowledge and adding two and two to make forty-six.

I'd ask what internal pressures are there which would lead someone to run specific extensions or diversions to colleges and schools even on days that they are closed? Doesn't take Einstein to see that this is ridiculous, incompetence, and wasting taxpayers money (perhaps small numbers, but lots of small numbers add up. And if this is slipping through the net, lots of other things are)

Whilst it may well be true that Local Authorities have a quantity of inexperienced staff - after all, there are not that many people around actually interested in buses, and even fewer who ride in them, and who wish to work amongst lots of other people not interested in, or who have any care, about buses (those that are may well not be temperamentally suitable for employment in those roles) - the bus companies are generally no better either.

Irrespective of the role or organisation (local authority or private company), if you can't do the job you simply shouldn't be in the job (of course some people may be in training and things, and that isn't too bad, but they should be under a good enough trainer to show them the ropes). You wouldn't employ a waiter who kept dropping the plates. You wouldn't employ a bus driver that keeps crashing. You wouldn't employ a postperson who keeps delivering things to the wrong houses. So why are local authorities so insistent on employing staff who can't do the job and constantly prove that they can't do it? The only logical conclusion I've come to about it many council staff members are now employed merely to reduce long term unemployment in the local area, as the staff are so useless no one else would have them.

I agree bus operators can be no better and I've made no secret in saying that too on other threads. In some cases though if operators were dealt better cards, they would respond better. They are expected to take thousands of people each day who travel for free and in return the government pays them a pittance to accept. All the whole operators have no choice but to accept them. I can't imagine Tesco doing very well if the government gave everyone unlimited a £5 shopping gift cards but only paid tesco £1.50 odd each time these £5 vouchers were used. That's the same reality that the bus industry is facing on it's commercial routes.

 

[aron2smith]

And yet you continue to bash the market despite ENDLESS examples of where the issues are with local authorities and governments. How many more things are you going to come up with to blame the market for, when there has been umpteeen examples given to you to show that it's numpties in councils and governments who are causing most issues. Operators aren't faultless, but blaming them for things which are not their fault, make YOU part of the problem. That is exactly what politicians and councillors have been doing for years and all it does is worsen working relations, and make it harder for solutions to come about.

I will bash the market because it fails to deliver what I need from buses. Where I live substantial suburban areas had no bus service at all until a year ago and whole areas in the borough continue to lack any late evening service because of privatisation. Reliability is also a big problem. This is despite it being a commuter town on the fringes of London! The services were good until the council subsidies stopped, which exposes this model of running buses as flawed at a fundamental level. Everything that was promised that justified deregulation hasn't happened, why wouldn't I criticise it? 40 years of this experiment is enough.

If honest, I'm confused how you responded to what I said with this. And councils generally plan for their areas, how was divorcing transport from planning ever seen as a good idea?

As for Welsh authorities, I hope they learn from other places franchising buses. Maybe the 2 municipal companies in Wales could pass on their experience too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Right... back from holiday and ready to talk about Welsh buses and the like.

First of all, the historical aspect. As per usual, @aron2smith is coming up with the usual medley of hits in relation to deregulation, privatisation and austerity as being the issues behind the decline in Welsh bus services. They are only factors. Let's looks at things over the longer term - as with UK bus services in general, patronage peaked in the 1950s. Since then there have been a catalogue of reasons why bus patronage has fallen - the rise in living standards making the private car more desirable, the rise of fridges meaning two or three shopping trips a week weren't needed, the decline of the evening economy as cinemas closed as TV dominated the entertainment world, and so it goes on and on. Overlaid onto that, there was the decline in the Welsh coal industry in South Wales (which underpinned much of the bus patronage in the country) - in the Rhondda, 11 of the 13 pits closed between Nationalisation and the late 1970s as smaller pits were closed in favour of concentrating production at larger pits that were also invested in to produce more coal with less men. Moreover, it meant fewer workers journeys and as villages lost their pits, that had an impact on the overall financial performance of bus operations and cuts began to follow. Also, there was a lot of duplication between the various nationalised bus operations (Rhondda, Western Welsh, United Welsh, Red & White and South Wales Transport) and as the financial position deteriorated, this led to various bits of rationalisation before and after the formation of the National Bus Company. Of course, the National Bus Company was created with immediate financial pressures itself. It decided to exit from most of Pembrokeshire with the closure of St Davids depot (leaving it to the private sector and the council to fill the gaps) in 1971. The 1970s were a continual decline in service provision, especially in mid Wales, but that was nothing compared to the MAP schemes of the early 1980s which saw services massively cut back - National Welsh (the fusion of Rhondda, R&W and WW) was especially keen on such schemes and it was notable that they received very few new buses after 1980 as they simply didn't need them and/or couldn't afford them. Crosville also undertook MAP schemes, notably in Wrexham where the cuts enabled the Flint depot to ultimately close. Deregulation was a massive upheaval in the Welsh Valleys as National Welsh, the local council firms and new independents competed; for much of the country, the rewards were so scant that competition was limited. The exception was Wrexham where a ruinous strike by Crosville drivers saw independents come in and the depot closed. However, to suggest that decline was largely the product of deregulation and privatisation is simply naive, and frankly, not true.

Another aspect that has muddied the waters was the local government reorganisation of 1994. Previously, there were 8 local authorities responsible for the provision of bus (and many other) services. That was suddenly removed with the creation of unitary authorities. The irony was that Powys remained intact (but became a unitary) whilst the smallest country (Gwent) was split into 6 components. That led to a fragmentation of bus service support as certain counties had differing views and priorities. And that's something we can get onto in more detail... how important are bus services to local authorities, but we digress. Yet another factor has been the resurgence of local rail services in South Wales e.g. Maesteg line reopened 1992, Vale of Glamorgan line 2005, Ebbw Vale line 2008 - the latter decimated the local bus services down the valley. I also confidently predict that the introduction of SW Metro will turbocharge that decline as more bus passengers are abstracted. Of course, @Dwarfer1979 has mentioned the feeder services that were introduced for certain lines; I think it was Caerau to Maesteg, and one at Ystrad Mynach but despite full integration including ticketing, they never saw any major take up. So that's the history as was - I could write a lot more (and I think it's broadly accurate). Note: the idea of bus rail integration is eminently laudable but it is really dependant on geography. In somewhere like Bangor, it's difficult whilst in Swansea, the location of that station makes it really difficult route services past the station with little space to have any form of interchange. And as @markymark2000 has also mentioned, a number of the diversions that were made have now been abandoned as the numbers using them were derisory.

Then we have the more recent history and current day. Well, where do we start?

It is fair to say that Arriva's record (which was distinctly underwhelming anyway) declined markedly after their purchase by Deutsche Bahn as money was salted away to bolster their own issues in Europe; a clear illustration why cross subsidy doesn't work. It's ok having a cash cow but if you don't feed the cow, the yield will drop!! First were actually ok for much of the 2000s (despite their own travails though the FtR concept in Swansea was always fatally flawed) and Stagecoach were pretty decent. However, in the post Covid world, the approach of the Welsh Government was not the same as their English counterparts and so services were simply reduced or axed outright. That's the backdrop to these proposals and it seems that we're seeing the usual failings from TfW in not addressing the key challenges in getting bus patronage increasing.

Now I know that @markymark2000 gets very frustrated with local authorities and data issues. That's understandable. I'm disappointed when I see the position in Flintshire but I could say the same with many other local authorities. And yes, things have got worse since austerity. However, there were always massive variations between the LAs - Gwynedd were pretty decent whilst Flintshire and Wrecsam have always been flaky. Moreover, there is a massive pressure on ALL LAs with limited funds and a massive increase in Social Care and SEND requirements. Remember that these are statutory requirements that LAs must provide and extend to road maintenance, education, planning and so on. The provision of bus services is not a statutory requirement and so it's little wonder that it doesn't get prioritised. As @RT4038 is alluding to, it's not that LAs are anti-bus. They simply have neither the money nor motivation to do it. So what's happened is that roles have been amalgamated - the previously dedicated Public Transport Officer is now also responsible for SEND Transport, and they've also perhaps lost their person who was doing the bus stop timetable updates too. It's not a case of laziness or fecklessness - it's simply that resources are so stretched and that knowledge and skills have been lost along the way. I don't have the figures for Wales but SEND transport costs have more than doubled between 2018 and now.

So perhaps in that case, TfW would be a good solution to provide a unified approach to information provision and the like? Sadly, TfW has often shown itself to be lacking in the knowledge and skills to execute their existing limited plans. I had no issue with the TrawsCymry-fication of certain bus routes and the amalgamation of services except to say that the whole TC strategy has been lost as politicians began meddling (remember the Cardiff Airport service?) and it drifted towards a compromised branding exercise than something more strategic.

 

[Mwanesh]

I will bash the market because it fails to deliver what I need from buses. Where I live substantial suburban areas had no bus service at all until a year ago and whole areas in the borough continue to lack any late evening service because of privatisation. Reliability is also a big problem. This is despite it being a commuter town on the fringes of London! The services were good until the council subsidies stopped, which exposes this model of running buses as flawed at a fundamental level. Everything that was promised that justified deregulation hasn't happened, why wouldn't I criticise it? 40 years of this experiment is enough.

If honest, I'm confused how you responded to what I said with this. And councils generally plan for their areas, how was divorcing transport from planning ever seen as a good idea?

As for Welsh authorities, I hope they learn from other places franchising buses. Maybe the 2 municipal companies in Wales could pass on their experience too.

I would not trust Transport for Wales to do a better job on the buses.Wales apart from the South and coastal north there are rural areas served by small operators.I can see most just giving up.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm disappointed when I see the position in Flintshire but I could say the same with many other local authorities.

I fully agree that Flintshire is not the only issue authority here. It's just one that I have more experience with and can provide more examples.

The provision of bus services is not a statutory requirement and so it's little wonder that it doesn't get prioritised. As @RT4038 is alluding to, it's not that LAs are anti-bus. They simply have neither the money nor motivation to do it. So what's happened is that roles have been amalgamated - the previously dedicated Public Transport Officer is now also responsible for SEND Transport, and they've also perhaps lost their person who was doing the bus stop timetable updates too. It's not a case of laziness or fecklessness - it's simply that resources are so stretched and that knowledge and skills have been lost along the way.

If you really struggling for money so much that you are struggling to keep yourself going day to day with essentials, then someone gives you £1k to help you ease your problems. Do you then spend that money on getting food, or do you spend it buying a jetski? Because that is the equivalent of what is going on here but on a bigger scale. Council on their backside supposedly struggling for funds, then when they get given money to help try and ease some of the issues (such as the huge amounts of extra funds given by Welsh Government in the Bus Network Support Grant which led to a good few areas expanding bus services, such as Monmouth, Blaenau Gwent and Wrexham), they often spend it on nonsense which not a single person has ever asked for, nor wants rather than putting the money into what is actually needed, then go back to whinging and whining that they have no money. In Flintshires case, how can you justify wasting taxpayers money on a brand new 2 bus route to run 5-10 minutes ahead of a commercial service for the entire route, while also making cuts to other services because you are apparently struggling for money? It's textbook incompetence. And why not call a spade a spade?

incompetence

1. lack of ability to do something successfully or as it should be done: 2…

dictionary.cambridge.org

incompetence
lack of the ability, skill, or knowledge that is needed to do a job or perform an action correctly or to a satisfactory standard

Similarly many of the other issues that I have raised, such as transport teams doing their own investigations on themselves, refusing to fix issues when flagged, refusal to take low hanging fruit because kicking cans down a road is easier. Trying to avoid public contact because they know that they can't do the job properly and don't want to risk the public knowing that (To such extents that it takes multiple complaints, emails to council chiefs and council leaders before you finally get replies from most council transport teams). Has anyone given the circus monkeys a call? I'm starting to think that we'd all have much better services if they took over local councils. And even if not better, they can't be any worse!

And yes, things have got worse since austerity. However, there were always massive variations between the LAs - Gwynedd were pretty decent whilst Flintshire and Wrecsam have always been flaky.....

Even Gwynedd, since the the TFW led review. Many of the routes were forced to be timed for connections to TrawsCymru and ignored local demand and actual usage, as such, not only has service provision been poorer but it's also costing taxpayers dearly with additional school transport costs (as the kids used to be conveyed a lot more on the core bus network). You can also see the mess around Bangor like the G10 where they have timetabled it to serve absolutely everyone and everywhere, but ending up with a timetable that no one understands. Renumbering routes to 'G' routes so that they can show off what they are running rather than just using normal route numbers, needlessly making bus route numbers political. They also have an extremely messy network around Llŷn that they refuse to fix even with some of the low hanging fruit.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If you really struggling for money so much that you are struggling to keep yourself going day to day with essentials, then someone gives you £1k to help you ease your problems. Do you then spend that money on getting food, or do you spend it buying a jetski? Because that is the equivalent of what is going on here but on a bigger scale. Council on their backside supposedly struggling for funds, then when they get given money to help try and ease some of the issues (such as the huge amounts of extra funds given by Welsh Government in the Bus Network Support Grant which led to a good few areas expanding bus services, such as Monmouth, Blaenau Gwent and Wrexham), they often spend it on nonsense which not a single person has ever asked for, nor wants rather than putting the money into what is actually needed, then go back to whinging and whining that they have no money. In Flintshires case, how can you justify wasting taxpayers money on a brand new 2 bus route to run 5-10 minutes ahead of a commercial service for the entire route, while also making cuts to other services because you are apparently struggling for money? It's textbook incompetence. And why not call a spade a spade?

Similarly many of the other issues that I have raised, such as transport teams doing their own investigations on themselves, refusing to fix issues when flagged, refusal to take low hanging fruit because kicking cans down a road is easier. Trying to avoid public contact because they know that they can't do the job properly and don't want to risk the public knowing that (To such extents that it takes multiple complaints, emails to council chiefs and council leaders before you finally get replies from most council transport teams). Has anyone given the circus monkeys a call? I'm starting to think that we'd all have much better services if they took over local councils. And even if not better, they can't be any worse!

Ok - there's two or three issues here and I'll try to navigate as best I can.

First of all, funding. Part of the problem with much of the funding is hypothecation (aka ring fencing). So to use your analogy, if you receive the money, it may be from the Government Jetski Procurement Fund and that money cannot be used on anything else. This is the problem with many of the DRT schemes that we see. It seems ridiculous (and it is) that we see schemes being introduced that are expensive and don't provide value for money whilst traditional bus services are cut. In Wales, we've seen it with Fflecsi and, more locally to me, great swathes of rural services were removed in favour of Westlink. Those strings are attached and we've seen it with other funding streams too. What happens then is that money is suddenly provided by government but it's a) hypothecated and b) must be spent in a defined period. What that does is drive some really poor behaviours and a "get it spent" mentality rather than taking a more considered approach to get the best value for money. So when the clock is ticking, you see the easy win is to simply introduce an evening service or a rather scattergun approach in looking at gaps on a map rather than a more scientific and strategic approach. It's a failing of the manner of funding as I saw c.2000 with Rural Bus Challenge funding.

That brings us onto the skills set and approach of the local authorities and the individuals concerned.

There's inconsistency between local authorities in their approach and commitment. On this forum, we are public transport advocates. We see things differently to 99% of the populace. So when it comes to the prioritisation of public transport within a local authority, there can be either a lack of focus to do things - as I said, it ISN'T a statutory responsibility (some may say it should be but we are where we are). They MUST deliver education, planning, etc etc and so the focus is on the things that they must do in terms of local government legislation. Some councils have some commitment to local bus services but in others, it's just #94 on the list of things to do and the council will focus on what they think are more pressing issues. I don't think you fully appreciate quite how hollowed out many councils are these days.

In most councils, the transport teams are focussed on schools and SEND transport and it's tough enough for them to handle that workload. Even if they wanted to, they don't have the people to do roadside publicity let alone many of the other issues that irk you. Moreover, they don't have the skilled people in terms of both numbers and skill set. Skills that have been lost as people have left/retired and haven't been backfilled. So when you email them with a complaint/suggestion/otherwise... it's just another thing on their list of things to do and they will prioritise the things that are both statutory duties and are most sensitive, and that's because that is what they have been instructed to do either directly or by default.

Reform have discovered the reality of local government. They were going to have this DOGE style slashing of waste and woke etc, and Kent is one of their flagship councils where they had the slogans about cutting taxes and cutting waste. In 2023/24, 71.6% of its spending went on statutory adult and children’s social care. Only 1.2% on Kent's head office costs. Guess what - they've discovered that there's no big savings without cutting statutory provision, and that could face legal challenges, so a 4% council tax increase is on its way.

As @Dwarfer1979 indicated, the key is consistent additional funding with the freedoms (within reason) of how to deploy it.

ps the talk of cross subsidy is a nonsense. Didn't work in the 1970s and it's noticeable how the tube in London is looking ever more careworn as funds are diverted away from it.

 

[markymark2000]

First of all, funding. Part of the problem with much of the funding is hypothecation (aka ring fencing). So to use your analogy, if you receive the money, it may be from the Government Jetski Procurement Fund and that money cannot be used on anything else.... Those strings are attached and we've seen it with other funding streams too. What happens then is that money is suddenly provided by government but it's a) hypothecated and b) must be spent in a defined period. What that does is drive some really poor behaviours and a "get it spent" mentality rather than taking a more considered approach to get the best value for money. So when the clock is ticking, you see the easy win is to simply introduce an evening service or a rather scattergun approach in looking at gaps on a map rather than a more scientific and strategic approach....

(Partial quote so I am replying to the relevant bits)
I don't believe that the Bus Network Grant that it had to be spent on new services, as I am sure that services have been enhanced with the funding in other areas, rather than new services. I am also 100% certain that the funding didn't have to be spent on competing with commercial services.

You mention 'get it spent' mentality and how that can lead to easy wins. I agree with you there, however the highly intelligent people in Flintshire Council went past about 114 of them before they got to the 11A service. Bearing in mind, most routes in Flintshire only have a service between schools Monday-Friday, with a similarly poor Saturday service outside of the commercial flows to Chester. And there are only 5 routes in the whole of Flintshire on a Sunday (Of which, the 11 is only every 2 hours and F1 is designed around the industrial estate, and the 16 only serves Saltney. Only the 4S and 10 provide any meaningful service in the county). I think that gives a good idea into where the funds could have been better spent. Evening and Sunday frequency enhancements to the 11 would have been transformational for Flintshire. Especially Holywell and Flint. Instead the money is being wasted on extra buses that no one asked for Monday-Friday.

At what point does 'get it spent' mentality cross a line into mismanagement of public funds by knowingly and wilfully wasting it? Then again, no point in anyone reporting such things as I know the last time that someone reported such things to a Welsh authority, the person who the complaint was about, was also the investigating officer for that complaint. Work that one out? And why, if there was nothing to cover up, would someone independent not do the investigating?

don't think you fully appreciate quite how hollowed out many councils are these days.

So when you email them with a complaint/suggestion/otherwise... it's just another thing on their list of things to do

If they didn't make such a hash of things in the first place, people wouldn't need to report their errors and nor would the council have to spend time justifying their errors. Nor would increasing numbers of people be submitting FOI requests to try and uncover details on why numpty decisions are being made. Council staffs incompetence is causing them more work. Just do better at the job in the first place, and if you can't do it properly, pack your bags and find another job (though as I say, the calibre of many council staff these days, I can't see any private firms employing them for long).
I know that a good number of emails from council staff (not necessarily replies to me, but also emails that I've been shown) have taken them longer to write trying to justify their nonsense previous decisions, than it would have taken them to just fix the problem. In some instances, I could have had the problem fixed within less than 60 seconds.

ps the talk of cross subsidy is a nonsense. Didn't work in the 1970s and it's noticeable how the tube in London is looking ever more careworn as funds are diverted away from it.

I think this part of your reply may have been better directed to someone else as I haven't mentioned cross subsidy.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't believe that the Bus Network Grant that it had to be spent on new services, as I am sure that services have been enhanced with the funding in other areas, rather than new services. I am also 100% certain that the funding didn't have to be spent on competing with commercial services.

You mention 'get it spent' mentality and how that can lead to easy wins. I agree with you there, however the highly intelligent people in Flintshire Council went past about 114 of them before they got to the 11A service. Bearing in mind, most routes in Flintshire only have a service between schools Monday-Friday, with a similarly poor Saturday service outside of the commercial flows to Chester. And there are only 5 routes in the whole of Flintshire on a Sunday (Of which, the 11 is only every 2 hours and F1 is designed around the industrial estate, and the 16 only serves Saltney. Only the 4S and 10 provide any meaningful service in the county). I think that gives a good idea into where the funds could have been better spent. Evening and Sunday frequency enhancements to the 11 would have been transformational for Flintshire. Especially Holywell and Flint. Instead the money is being wasted on extra buses that no one asked for Monday-Friday.

At what point does 'get it spent' mentality cross a line into mismanagement of public funds by knowingly and wilfully wasting it? Then again, no point in anyone reporting such things as I know the last time that someone reported such things to a Welsh authority, the person who the complaint was about, was also the investigating officer for that complaint. Work that one out? And why, if there was nothing to cover up, would someone independent not do the investigating?

I'm not so au fait with the Welsh Government but the original English BSIP funding was to be directed to new facilities (i.e. new services or enhancements to current services) and not to prop up existing routes. It did mean the curious position of existing services being withdrawn whilst existing services were under threat. The original BSIP scheme also had awards for capital investment that couldn't then be spent on other areas. These are central government issues not local authorities. That still doesn't get away from the other issues of hypothecation where DRT funding has to spent on DRT schemes. And yes, funding didn't have to be spent on "competing services" but likewise, there was no rule that said funding had to be spent on brand new services either. Local authorities could easily decide to spend money on enhancing existing corridors where they felt that it might be more effective. Why Flintshire spent the money in the way they have, I don't know.

The "get it spent" mentality does drive some poor behaviours as I said. The options are to spend it (and do it now) or lose it anyway. It's expediency. However, I'm unclear what you think there should be an investigation about? If it's that the money could be spent better on X or Y rather than Z... that's an opinion. I mean... are you asking a council to employ an outside agency to evaluate where they should spend their money? They won't because where does that end?

If it's actual malpractice or fraud then that is a different matter and they won't be investigating that internally.

If they didn't make such a hash of things in the first place, people wouldn't need to report their errors and nor would the council have to spend time justifying their errors. Nor would increasing numbers of people be submitting FOI requests to try and uncover details on why numpty decisions are being made. Council staffs incompetence is causing them more work. Just do better at the job in the first place, and if you can't do it properly, pack your bags and find another job (though as I say, the calibre of many council staff these days, I can't see any private firms employing them for long).
I know that a good number of emails from council staff (not necessarily replies to me, but also emails that I've been shown) have taken them longer to write trying to justify their nonsense previous decisions, than it would have taken them to just fix the problem. In some instances, I could have had the problem fixed within less than 60 seconds.

These "hashs" are not wanton or deliberate, and often not because people are feckless or stupid. It's because they don't have the people to do the jobs; this may come as a shock but when LAs set budgets, there's an acceptance that this will happen. They know that certain things just won't be done and this comes from the top. When you're doing 3 people's jobs because people haven't been backfilled, or you've had a load of work tacked onto your role which you've not been trained in, that is what happens.

I'm assuming you've not worked in such an environment? It's the McKinsey doctrine.

I think this part of your reply may have been better directed to someone else as I haven't mentioned cross subsidy.

It was directed at the member for Cheshunt North but I was doing a consolidated post encompassing points that had been made across a number of posts.

 

[RT4038]

They should care though, better public transport is an easy way of improving a council area and doing things and projects that make an area more pleasant to be in. Same with making somewhere nicer to walk through. Even in rural areas, traffic is enough of a problem, that it has to be restricted in places. People should add 2 and 2 together. Even if it's not specifically buses, they should always be aware of how people will travel, especially in new developments as more cars and more traffic and more roads are not a solution.

Trains and cycling rightly get attention, but buses are still the workhorse of transport. About time they got better recognition.

Unfortunately, you saying 'they should care' is not a magic wand to make people care. Most people are not on board with your theory that better public transport is an easy way of improving a council area - it may well be 'a way', but most people are definitely not on board with themselves being forced out of their cars onto unpleasant and inconvenient public transport (as they see it), inter alia - unpleasant in the distance to access it at either end of the journey, the waiting times, the quality of staff and the other passengers that they may be forced to ride with; and inconvenient in the fixed times, the number of potential changes for relatively short journeys and the lengthy overall journey times as a result, compared with private car travel.

When I refer to people who don't care about buses, I am not just referring to some of the Local Authority staff in Public Transport departments, or staff in bus companies; this ranges from senior LA management, through Highway Engineers and planners, Town planners, to business people (private car travellers generally have more spending money at their disposal than bus passengers: how many transformative town centre revival plans have buses at the centre of transport needs? - none in my county of residence, all are moving buses further away into dingy side streets etc) , housing developers (bus facilities to be a minimum and in dingy corners) through to the bulk of the voters (don't want bus stops outside or near my property, don't want buses coming down my road). Only a very small proportion of these people actually use buses, and virtually none of them, to a man/woman, wish to swap the ambience and convenience of the private car for bus / public transport travel. They are not anti-bus particularly but they are certainly very anti-force-me-into-riding-on-them, and anti-inconveniencing-me-by-prioritising-them . If you don't actually use buses, you will not have any feeling for the issues that your decisions (work or personal) cause for bus users / operators.
They add 2 and 2 together and see a more difficult and unpleasant life if they are going to have to use public transport for their lives, so no thank you. A few lone voices extolling the virtues of buses, in a Local Authority and/or amongst the general public, are just dismissed as being eccentric enthusiasts.

And yet you continue to bash the market despite ENDLESS examples of where the issues are with local authorities and governments. How many more things are you going to come up with to blame the market for, when there has been umpteeen examples given to you to show that it's numpties in councils and governments who are causing most issues. Operators aren't faultless, but blaming them for things which are not their fault, make YOU part of the problem. That is exactly what politicians and councillors have been doing for years and all it does is worsen working relations, and make it harder for solutions to come about.

Well, judging by their current peformance, it is not going to be the bus companies (aka 'the market') that is going to be any kind of solution - charging the highest fares for the minimum amount of service, delivered in the most careless fashion for the ease of the staff/management and the largest financial return to the owners/shareholders. In most areas there is no market - even the so-called commercial routes are being propped up by subsidies in one way or another. How much effort do you see the bus companies putting in to attracting customers or even retaining existing? Unreliable services (missed trips or part of trips, drivers going wrong route, breakdowns) unpunctuality (schedules too tight, no supervision, late departures from depot), no printed timetables, inaccurate apps and journey planners, timetable changes without thought to existing business etc etc. Bus Company management is focused on how to obtain the maximum income from sources other than maximising passenger numbers - i.e. subsidy in one way or another, so they don't actually have to care for passengers. The staff the bus companies do employ, particularly in administrative, supervisory and management roles, generally do not use the product, do not pay the fares and do not have very much feeling for their customers at all. There is little knowledge and understanding of the wider context of bus transport.

Austerity while perhaps an issue, is no excuse for the fact that when the authorities do get the money they need, they waste it on nonsense rather than investing it into things that people actually want or need. Throwing money at an incompetent organisation, doesn't suddenly make it competent. It just gives numpties more money to waste. Exactly as proven in Flintshire. More money didn't solve their problems, it made them worse as they are using it to compete with commercial services. Then they will plead poverty and blame private companies when the commercial routes cease due to the council funded routes taking the money and passengers from the commercial routes.

Quite why you would think that you are the arbiter of what is right or wrong as far as bus service provision is concerned I just don't know? Presumably it is only your opinion, judged as you see it from the outside. I don't know Flintshire particularly - I took a look at the Service 11 & 11A timetable you so bitterly complain about. I presume that Flintshire wanted 3 buses per hour over part of the route, presumably for capacity reasons or to restore previous frequency or some such, but the bus company did not want (for whatever reason) to have a 20/40 minute frequency over the rest. Presumably Flintshire couldn't or didn't want to afford a 20 min frequency over the whole route. The Bus Company must have been fully consulted over the resultant timetable, so all your hyperbole about competing with commercial services is hot air. Looks like the additional journeys are exactly in between the commercial timetable leaving from Chester (i.e. 15 minutes apart on a 30 minute frequency), but on the return is 9 minutes in front, because anything else would have cost another bus. It looks like Arriva could have moved their commercial journeys slightly later if they had wanted to, but have chosen not to, maybe for good reason? I don't know all of the circumstances so will refrain from calling either the LA or Arriva's staff numpty.

Combine this with a lack of accountability. I can't count the number of times I and others (where details have been shared) have made a formal complaint about the councils transport teams actions and attitudes, and then the transport team become the ones investigating the complaint into their own incompetence! One email that I became privy to, someone even reported a member of staff in a Welsh council for being complicit in a fraud, and the investigating officer was the accused! If you dare to catch them out on something they say too, they simply ignore you and hope you go away because that is easier than it is to admit that they were wrong.

Throw all of this together. Inexperienced council staff, who can't even manage to do the basic parts of the job, who waste endless sums of taxpayers money on nonsense which no one asked for but simultaneously shelve transformative projects and scrap routes which people do actually use, who when complained about they carry out their own investigations on themselves.

What are you actually complaining about? Are you a resident of the the area of that Local Authority? I expect Local Authorities get plenty of numptys who only know part of a story complaining about any and every aspect of their work - staff make mistakes, inexperienced ones more than experienced ones (presumably you don't make any?), people are always complaining that one area (activity or geographical or both) should get a higher priority than another, wanting a detailed explanation as to why particular decisions were made, and then not liking the explanation because it doesn't fit in with their views. Someone always thinks they know better than the people doing the job. I should imagine that complaints about detailed aspects of bus routes and timetables, on the basis that 'it would be better for the public transport offer as a whole' (as opposed to the 'I can't get to the hospital in Bangor [or wherever] from my house in the local area without changing buses' type) will be treated like any other pressure group wanting their views to take precedence over local pressures [i.e. someone from Milton Keynes complaining that the staff are incompetent for filling in potholes in Amlwch before those in Holyhead].
If there were independent inquiries into any complaint about every decision taken by a Local Authority, their work would seize up altogether, quite apart from no-one wanting to work for them as competing pressure groups mount witch hunts. If a resident doesn't like something they can raise it with their Councillor.

I think that gives a good idea into where the funds could have been better spent. Evening and Sunday frequency enhancements to the 11 would have been transformational for Flintshire. Especially Holywell and Flint. Instead the money is being wasted on extra buses that no one asked for Monday-Friday.

This is only your opinion. This doesn't make it the right thing to do. In my locality, some evening services have been enhanced and this has been anything but transformational. Buses running about with nil or one person on them. There are still plenty of routes without evening services - would you go ahead with evening buses on those too? I daresay most of the bus travelling public would prefer more buses at the times they do travel?

Perhaps you should be applying for one of these jobs at a Local Authority that you think is not up to scratch - you may find out some reality......

 

[aron2smith]

Unfortunately, you saying 'they should care' is not a magic wand to make people care. Most people are not on board with your theory that better public transport is an easy way of improving a council area - it may well be 'a way', but most people are definitely not on board with themselves being forced out of their cars onto unpleasant and inconvenient public transport (as they see it), inter alia - unpleasant in the distance to access it at either end of the journey, the waiting times, the quality of staff and the other passengers that they may be forced to ride with; and inconvenient in the fixed times, the number of potential changes for relatively short journeys and the lengthy overall journey times as a result, compared with private car travel.

When I refer to people who don't care about buses, I am not just referring to some of the Local Authority staff in Public Transport departments, or staff in bus companies; this ranges from senior LA management, through Highway Engineers and planners, Town planners, to business people (private car travellers generally have more spending money at their disposal than bus passengers: how many transformative town centre revival plans have buses at the centre of transport needs? - none in my county of residence, all are moving buses further away into dingy side streets etc) , housing developers (bus facilities to be a minimum and in dingy corners) through to the bulk of the voters (don't want bus stops outside or near my property, don't want buses coming down my road). Only a very small proportion of these people actually use buses, and virtually none of them, to a man/woman, wish to swap the ambience and convenience of the private car for bus / public transport travel. They are not anti-bus particularly but they are certainly very anti-force-me-into-riding-on-them, and anti-inconveniencing-me-by-prioritising-them . If you don't actually use buses, you will not have any feeling for the issues that your decisions (work or personal) cause for bus users / operators.
They add 2 and 2 together and see a more difficult and unpleasant life if they are going to have to use public transport for their lives, so no thank you. A few lone voices extolling the virtues of buses, in a Local Authority and/or amongst the general public, are just dismissed as being eccentric enthusiasts.

I get it but those same people can't then complain about the traffic, about parking apparently being too small for their deliberately oversized panzer. Or that there is apparently some war against them because a government or council or mayor dares think about increasing fuel duty or pay per mile/ congestion charge or regulating air pollution or to fine people parking on the pavement! Society needs to work for everyone, not just those driving. So if someone driving can only use one lane now as the other is given to a bus, tram or bikes, or has to drive around a one way system in a town centre, it's tough. We give over so much space to motorists and it's never enough, so we have to reach a limit with that soon.

I think in cities and most towns, even suburban areas, driving is not that convenient to do and that's how it should be. But it also means funding and providing proper and comprehensive alternatives for when people need them, as people never know when they will need public transport. Cars can be great but they are not a jack of all trades.

Also I didn't think people were snobby about bus travel anymore. Never known anyone to judge someone negatively in Britain for using a bus ever.

Well, judging by their current peformance, it is not going to be the bus companies (aka 'the market') that is going to be any kind of solution - charging the highest fares for the minimum amount of service, delivered in the most careless fashion for the ease of the staff/management and the largest financial return to the owners/shareholders. In most areas there is no market - even the so-called commercial routes are being propped up by subsidies in one way or another. How much effort do you see the bus companies putting in to attracting customers or even retaining existing? Unreliable services (missed trips or part of trips, drivers going wrong route, breakdowns) unpunctuality (schedules too tight, no supervision, late departures from depot), no printed timetables, inaccurate apps and journey planners, timetable changes without thought to existing business etc etc. Bus Company management is focused on how to obtain the maximum income from sources other than maximising passenger numbers - i.e. subsidy in one way or another, so they don't actually have to care for passengers. The staff the bus companies do employ, particularly in administrative, supervisory and management roles, generally do not use the product, do not pay the fares and do not have very much feeling for their customers at all. There is little knowledge and understanding of the wider context of bus transport.

I know you are responding to someone else now but strongly agree with all of this, definitely feels like this in Hertfordshire, especially anywhere Arriva runs. The only time things change is when the county council uses BSIP money to change things, there is no real competition and ironically in all the places recognised as having good bus networks, there is virtually a benevolent monopoly, instead of one that is managing decline. I guess this is the motivation for franchising all of Wales at once over the next 4 years, I hope they manage to find more experienced people so it's a success. Transport for Wales may appear incompetent but apart from short overcrowded trains every now and then, it seems like a better, more reliable service than when it was Arriva Trains Wales. I didn't realise it until more recently, but I took a picture of a Pacer in Cardiff Central, this was only in 2019! The new trains are much better and gradual investment seems to be getting more and more apparent.

As I said before, the status quo is deeply unsatisfactory and this is the case across much of England and Wales, so trying is better than not trying in my book.

 

[Man of Kent]

I get it but those same people can't then complain about the traffic, about parking apparently being too small for their deliberately oversized panzer. Or that there is apparently some war against them because a government or council or mayor dares think about increasing fuel duty or pay per mile/ congestion charge or regulating air pollution or to fine people parking on the pavement! Society needs to work for everyone, not just those driving. So if someone driving can only use one lane now as the other is given to a bus, tram or bikes, or has to drive around a one way system in a town centre, it's tough. We give over so much space to motorists and it's never enough, so we have to reach a limit with that soon.

I think in cities and most towns, even suburban areas, driving is not that convenient to do and that's how it should be. But it also means funding and providing proper and comprehensive alternatives for when people need them, as people never know when they will need public transport. Cars can be great but they are not a jack of all trades.

Also I didn't think people were snobby about bus travel anymore. Never known anyone to judge someone negatively in Britain for using a bus ever.

I know you are responding to someone else now but strongly agree with all of this, definitely feels like this in Hertfordshire, especially anywhere Arriva runs. The only time things change is when the county council uses BSIP money to change things, there is no real competition and ironically in all the places recognised as having good bus networks, there is virtually a benevolent monopoly, instead of one that is managing decline. I guess this is the motivation for franchising all of Wales at once over the next 4 years, I hope they manage to find more experienced people so it's a success. Transport for Wales may appear incompetent but apart from short overcrowded trains every now and then, it seems like a better, more reliable service than when it was Arriva Trains Wales. I didn't realise it until more recently, but I took a picture of a Pacer in Cardiff Central, this was only in 2019! The new trains are much better and gradual investment seems to be getting more and more apparent.

As I said before, the status quo is deeply unsatisfactory and this is the case across much of England and Wales, so trying is better than not trying in my book.

As the net subsidy for Transport for Wales' train operations has gone from around £120m pa at the end of the Arriva era, to not far off £400m in the last financial year, it blooming well ought to be a better service (Source: Office for Road and Rail statistics in Table 7226 https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/stati...operator-finances-since-2015-16-by-franchise/).

At the same time, the Welsh Government has broadly cut funding (provided to councils) for bus services, because it cannot cut the budget for rail. Operators and authorities have responded accordingly....

 

[aron2smith]

As the net subsidy for Transport for Wales' train operations has gone from around £120m pa at the end of the Arriva era, to not far off £400m in the last financial year, it blooming well ought to be a better service (Source: Office for Road and Rail statistics in Table 7226 https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/stati...operator-finances-since-2015-16-by-franchise/).

At the same time, the Welsh Government has broadly cut funding (provided to councils) for bus services, because it cannot cut the budget for rail. Operators and authorities have responded accordingly....

Raises the question why Wales got so little for trains back then and why it doesn't get more now? So it can run what needs to run. Clearly needs more funding all around.

 

[Dai Corner]

Raises the question why Wales got so little for trains back then and why it doesn't get more now? So it can run what needs to run. Clearly needs more funding all around.

'Decided to spend' would be more accurate than 'got'. Transport, education, health, environment, local Government etc are devolved function and the Welsh Government decides how much to spend on each out of the revenue it receives as a block grant from the UK Government and it's own taxes.

 

[slowroad]

'Decided to spend' would be more accurate than 'got'. Transport, education, health, environment, local Government etc are devolved function and the Welsh Government decides how much to spend on each out of the revenue it receives as a block grant from the UK Government and it's own taxes.

It will be into see what happens to overall passenger numbers on public transport in the metro area as services ramp up - what is that extra £ delivering?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I get it but those same people can't then complain about the traffic, about parking apparently being too small for their deliberately oversized panzer. Or that there is apparently some war against them because a government or council or mayor dares think about increasing fuel duty or pay per mile/ congestion charge or regulating air pollution or to fine people parking on the pavement! Society needs to work for everyone, not just those driving. So if someone driving can only use one lane now as the other is given to a bus, tram or bikes, or has to drive around a one way system in a town centre, it's tough. We give over so much space to motorists and it's never enough, so we have to reach a limit with that soon.

I think in cities and most towns, even suburban areas, driving is not that convenient to do and that's how it should be. But it also means funding and providing proper and comprehensive alternatives for when people need them, as people never know when they will need public transport. Cars can be great but they are not a jack of all trades.

I'm really confused. You appear to be "politically aware" and yet don't understand the politics of the private motor car? People who have cars really don't like being told that they can't use them. Did you miss the Uxbridge byelection? Have you missed the uproar about Low Traffic Neighbourhoods? There are obviously things that can and should be done but successful politicians know that you can't be too strong with the sticks and indeed, they will talk up populist issues like a war on the motorist. That's how politics works!

Let's go back to South Wales. There was a clear aim to improve connectivity in South Wales after the closure of the coal industry. There were rail reopenings, utilising lines that had been retained for coal traffic. However, there was also a need to improve road connectivity to attract new industries and employers into the valleys. Hence why the A470, A467 and most recently, the A465 have been extensively - great for goods vehicles but also cars.

Now in fairness, there are things that are being done in Wales e.g. a Paris style surcharge on SUV parking permits in Cardiff. However, there is a limit on what you can actually do and how quickly.

Also I didn't think people were snobby about bus travel anymore. Never known anyone to judge someone negatively in Britain for using a bus ever.

That you don't have friends with contrary views perhaps speaks more about you. I have a diverse range of friends from obvious public transport advocates through to people who frankly wouldn't be seen dead on a bus. In fact, I had a friend who lived in Harrow who once said she'd get the tube but never the bus as you get a better class of nutter!

I know you are responding to someone else now but strongly agree with all of this, definitely feels like this in Hertfordshire, especially anywhere Arriva runs. The only time things change is when the county council uses BSIP money to change things, there is no real competition and ironically in all the places recognised as having good bus networks, there is virtually a benevolent monopoly, instead of one that is managing decline. I guess this is the motivation for franchising all of Wales at once over the next 4 years, I hope they manage to find more experienced people so it's a success. Transport for Wales may appear incompetent but apart from short overcrowded trains every now and then, it seems like a better, more reliable service than when it was Arriva Trains Wales. I didn't realise it until more recently, but I took a picture of a Pacer in Cardiff Central, this was only in 2019! The new trains are much better and gradual investment seems to be getting more and more apparent.

As I said before, the status quo is deeply unsatisfactory and this is the case across much of England and Wales, so trying is better than not trying in my book.

My views on Arriva are well known.

However, what are you expecting Arriva or any other operator to do? Operators are running at low margins in any case. Why would they look to provide evening services (for instance) and run at a loss, or to introduce new services and have a large revenue risk? Instead, what BSIP is aiming to do (as did Kickstart in the past) is to enable pump priming of services so the operator doesn't have commercial exposure and then enables services to get established so that they are sustainable. BSIP funding has been wisely used by some local authorities to improve existing services and also in capital expenditure to support bus priority, making services quicker and more resilient.

Simply tossing loads more buses onto routes where you have 2 or 3 passengers on a journey is not sustainable. It isn't in London which is why the financial position there is becoming more acute - from 2023/4 to 2024/5, passenger numbers are down whilst the deficit has increased from £938m to £1075m and that's despite lots of "efficiencies" to routes.

Raises the question why Wales got so little for trains back then and why it doesn't get more now? So it can run what needs to run. Clearly needs more funding all around.

Er no - the real question is why Wales bus funding is being adversely affected as more money is ploughed into rail as @Man of Kent said.

I confidently predict that we will see further cuts to Welsh bus services when the SW Metro fully commences, mirroring the decline in other services when rail enhancements have taken place e.g. the Aberdare line, the Ebbw Vale line etc

 

[aron2smith]

I'm really confused. You appear to be "politically aware" and yet don't understand the politics of the private motor car? People who have cars really don't like being told that they can't use them. Did you miss the Uxbridge byelection? Have you missed the uproar about Low Traffic Neighbourhoods? There are obviously things that can and should be done but successful politicians know that you can't be too strong with the sticks and indeed, they will talk up populist issues like a war on the motorist. That's how politics works!

It's because as I have gained life experiences, I only see more and more negatives with low occupancy cars clogging urban and suburban areas. It just seems to bring out the worst in people, especially as cars have got larger and larger, making it harder for people to get passed each other. We are told everyone should be responsible for their own actions and yet somehow tolerate all sorts of crap from drivers, when a little more patience would solve the issues. This country really isn't built for the car. It took seeing how little traffic existed in the pandemic for me to realise how nice a lack of private motor traffic really was and how differently that road and parking space could be used. Whatever is put in modern cars, it seems deliberately hostile to anyone not in them!

Let's go back to South Wales. There was a clear aim to improve connectivity in South Wales after the closure of the coal industry. There were rail reopenings, utilising lines that had been retained for coal traffic. However, there was also a need to improve road connectivity to attract new industries and employers into the valleys. Hence why the A470, A467 and most recently, the A465 have been extensively - great for goods vehicles but also cars.

Now in fairness, there are things that are being done in Wales e.g. a Paris style surcharge on SUV parking permits in Cardiff. However, there is a limit on what you can actually do and how quickly.

I agree there needs to be a balance to these things. I have nothing against strategic new roads being built, just think there needs to be an alternative form of transport in as many places as possible and to join it up.

That you don't have friends with contrary views perhaps speaks more about you. I have a diverse range of friends from obvious public transport advocates through to people who frankly wouldn't be seen dead on a bus. In fact, I had a friend who lived in Harrow who once said she'd get the tube but never the bus as you get a better class of nutter!

I think that says more about your friend than me. I've ridden every day and night London bus route and only on a handful of occasions saw anything dodgy or felt unsafe on the 1000s of times using buses or waiting at stops. Funny you say Harrow, one of the safest parts of London! Even the so called 'no go' areas are generally fine in reality 99% of the time. If anything it's the inconsiderate phone use that is the worst part of using buses now.

Er no - the real question is why Wales bus funding is being adversely affected as more money is ploughed into rail as @Man of Kent said.

I confidently predict that we will see further cuts to Welsh bus services when the SW Metro fully commences, mirroring the decline in other services when rail enhancements have taken place e.g. the Aberdare line, the Ebbw Vale line etc

As long as the trains are accessible, I don't see what's wrong with the bus network being reshaped or even cut if there's a perfectly good rail service going the same way. Most towns in the valleys are really compact and small (unlikely to ever sprawl), so walking locally and using the train for longer journeys works. Ideally in areas with less population, buses would act as on road branch lines feeding the railway. The problem with many towns across the country is they go on for miles sprawling away from the railway, hence the need for buses, this seems much less likely in the Welsh Valleys.

If buses are changed when South Wales Metro is finished, that is to be expected. Not everywhere needs buses and trains paralleling each other, especially if no obvious place exists away from the railway.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's because as I have gained life experiences, I only see more and more negatives with low occupancy cars clogging urban and suburban areas. It just seems to bring out the worst in people, especially as cars have got larger and larger, making it harder for people to get passed each other. We are told everyone should be responsible for their own actions and yet somehow tolerate all sorts of crap from drivers, when a little more patience would solve the issues. This country really isn't built for the car. It took seeing how little traffic existed in the pandemic for me to realise how nice a lack of private motor traffic really was and how differently that road and parking space could be used. Whatever is put in modern cars, it seems deliberately hostile to anyone not in them!

All of that is your opinion and that is fine.

However, the fact is that is not an opinion that is universally held; in fact, it's not held by the majority of people. That is why successful politicians (and successful relates to being elected - after all, there's no point in having the moral high ground is you don't have any power) are loathe to be too anti-car. It's a massive vote loser - did you not see the Uxbridge byelection? The Manchester clean air zone? The Manchester congestion charge? Politically expedient decisions - I could go on. Don't you understand the politics at play here?

People will cheerfully say that they want better public transport, and other incredibly laudable things. Until it disadvantages them - it's why politicians will be very careful with the 40 million voters who have a driving license.

I think that says more about your friend than me. I've ridden every day and night London bus route and only on a handful of occasions saw anything dodgy or felt unsafe on the 1000s of times using buses or waiting at stops. Funny you say Harrow, one of the safest parts of London! Even the so called 'no go' areas are generally fine in reality 99% of the time. If anything it's the inconsiderate phone use that is the worst part of using buses now.

That wasn't the point. You said you've never heard anyone being derogatory about bus travel. Let me assure you - there are. That was a light hearted and slightly tongue in cheek comment but even so, that person would not travel by bus. I know others too. On the flip side, I naturally know people who are absolutely fine, even preferring it when it is the best option.

Phone use is one thing but you've never been on a bus when someone is vaping, or even lighting up a bifter?

However, if you honestly think that people aren't snobby about bus travel, let me assure that your group of friends are atypical.

As long as the trains are accessible, I don't see what's wrong with the bus network being reshaped or even cut if there's a perfectly good rail service going the same way. Most towns in the valleys are really compact and small (unlikely to ever sprawl), so walking locally and using the train for longer journeys works. Ideally in areas with less population, buses would act as on road branch lines feeding the railway. The problem with many towns across the country is they go on for miles sprawling away from the railway, hence the need for buses, this seems much less likely in the Welsh Valleys.

Yes but this is part of the problem in not understanding the statistics. When Andy Burnham showed how bus patronage had declined in Greater Manchester as part of the justification for Bee Network, he funnily enough failed to mention or draw any parallel with the increase in the Metrolink and abstraction of traffic that resulted in reductions to the bus network. Same goes with some of the South Wales rail reopenings so yes, you can talk about how patronage has reduced but you have to understand the figures in context rather than plucking stats out of the air.

As regards feeder services, as was noted with the Caerau and Ystrad Mynach ones, they simply didn't work. Moreover, look at the impact on local services on something like the Ebbw Vale line. Great for longer distance travel but not for local services. Fewer bus passengers and now fewer buses. That is important as unlike small towns in England, the valleys particular mean that you have long ribbons of development along the main roads so you have quite significant amounts of development some distance from a station.

Also, whilst we're on about locations of Welsh railway stations... well, some are really well located. Caerphilly is one really obvious example, in the town centre and has the adjoining bus station. And this is the rub - where you can realistically have interchange, then it should be enabled. However, you should never be so dogmatic to make it the "be all and end all". In somewhere like Pontypridd, the space isn't available and the train station is in such a peripheral location to the town centre, it makes more sense to have services in the bus station.

 

[KHCT]

I will bash the market because it fails to deliver what I need from buses.

You think the government is the solution? There is virtually no industry that hasn't been negatively affected by the dead hand of government.

Raises the question why Wales got so little for trains back then and why it doesn't get more now? So it can run what needs to run. Clearly needs more funding all around.

Public spending per head in Wales is 20% higher than England thanks for the Barnett formula, paid for by English taxpayers. How much more money do you think we should gift to Wales? The Welsh government also has the ability to raise income tax further but has chosen not to do so; that's on them.

If anything it's the inconsiderate phone use that is the worst part of using buses now.

Really? See this article for many people's reality of using urban buses.

Knife threats and racial abuse all in a day's work, say bus drivers

The BBC has spoken to passengers, transport staff and bus drivers about a growing national trend of antisocial behaviour on public transport.

www.bbc.com

 

[aron2smith]

Really? See this article for many people's reality of using urban buses.

Knife threats and racial abuse all in a day's work, say bus drivers

The BBC has spoken to passengers, transport staff and bus drivers about a growing national trend of antisocial behaviour on public transport.

www.bbc.com

I did see people abuse the driver and try to attack and assault them but it was 2 times in 1000s of journeys. In 1 of the incidents a passenger smashed the windscreen with a traffic cone in front of us, but it happened ONCE. Not nice for the staff of course but the media don't make it clear how extremely rare these sort of incidents are. Come on, that is my experience. And yes school leaving time can be the worst time to ride a bus, but ironically the kids seemed worse in the more middle class areas! A small number of times the driver threatened to go out of service because of the kids behaviour! Also far far more common are the people who blag a free ride. Night buses, some people were drinking alcohol on board, but never saw any smoking or violence (a fight nearly broke out once, but it de-escalated on its own)

The safety issues of the staff is why they are unionised.

And can't speak for Birmingham, but Coventry never had any issues using the bus there. To me that article is referring to a really local problem, that is not the norm for most people.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2026 ==

You think the government is the solution? There is virtually no industry that hasn't been negatively affected by the dead hand of government.

Certain things are natural monopolies including public transport. Competition makes no sense for them and so should be publicly run, ideally at a regional level. If anything is a dead hand, it's HM Treasury!

 

[Jellyfish261]

If they are planning 100 new routes in wales what one would you like them to be

Interesting question. I can only really speak for the pockets of Wales I'm familiar with, but as a start for the Capital City I'd like to see considered...

A focus of resources into turn up and go frequencies on key routes, particularly those not served well by rail corridors. Half hourly/hourly/two-hourly services in large conurbations of the city are going to do little to encourage use when an UBER can be there in less than 10.

The success of the 17/18 being regularly full now at peaks with a 5 minute frequency shows the potential.

Equally for a capital city with a great night life and enormous taxi problem, night buses - at least on the 17/18, 25A, 27, 30 and possibly even something up to Caerphilly, Taff Valley and Barry/Penarth to fill the gaps after the train service. At the very least on a Friday/Saturday night.

6/8 Bay services - opportunity to tie together into a more regular clockwise/anticlockwise 'loop' service and possibly amend the route once the bay/central trains arrive.

X30 - divert via Pontprennau ASDA to use J30 to connect onto the M4 (or 57/58 variant as below) - new North East Cardiff to Newport service, albeit with penalty on the X30.

32 - Better services between the City and St Fagans - or at the very least - a 1730 return to coincide with the museum closure (yes there is the 320 but you really have to do the research and exit via a little known back gate - not something unfamiliar visitors will be attracted to, nor expecting having been dropped off at the front car park).

57/58 - Provide an express variant between St Ederyn's, Pontprennau ASDA then direct to town along the A48 and Newport Road.

61 - Buses take a long time looping around Fairwater, mostly covering ground they've left not 5 minutes prior on the inbound. If all looped via Gorse Place and back to the Fairwater, could the PVR be reduced and/or services/reliability be increased.

The X45 or similar would be welcome back, even if just in the peaks. The current 44/45 is tortuous once it's into the estates.

A new service or variant to serve Ely Mill once the road is opened.

Perhaps a bit too much of a step, but building upon NAT's cross city C1 brand - cross city routes covering gaps in the network or where interchange a pain, i.e:

C1 - Existing route (perhaps more direct via Castle as Station already well served)

C2 - Culver - Ely (A48) - Waungron Park (A48) - Cardiff Met Llandaf (A48) - Heath Hospital - Rumney - St Mellons.

C3 - Bay - City - Pontcanna - Llandaf (Palace Ave) - Gabalfa - Whitchurch (basically picking up poorly served direct Rail - Bay corridors).

^thankfully, I've not got to worry about implementing any of those - so can happily continue to make pie in the sky suggestions (see c2 & c3 perhaps) from my keyboard and armchair (!)

 

[markymark2000]

If it's actual malpractice or fraud then that is a different matter and they won't be investigating that internally.

It shouldn't be investigated internally, I agree. Reality doesn't always match. Multiple complaints that I've been privy to have been a case of staff marking their own homework etc.

These "hashs" are not wanton or deliberate, and often not because people are feckless or stupid. It's because they don't have the people to do the jobs; this may come as a shock but when LAs set budgets, there's an acceptance that this will happen.

staff make mistakes

You can often tell whether something is a mistake or incompetence by the way that they react and respond when you make them aware of an issue. A genuine mistake someone will tend to rectify and apologise and do better in the future. Incompetence continues doing the same thing over and over, tries to bury their heads in the sand for as long as they can, and then when they eventually do have to face the music, spends far too long justifying their own actions (often far longer than it would take to fix). Growing numbers of local authority staff are falling into the latter.

Well, judging by their current peformance, it is not going to be the bus companies (aka 'the market') that is going to be any kind of solution

I largely agree. The current way in which operators are acting is not sustainable long term. How much of that though is due to actions taken though by local authorities or governments? You can't keep hitting commercial businesses revenues and directly or indirectly keep increasing their costs with policies, and also expect the business to continue thriving and expanding their offering. I'd also agree that bus operators don't help themselves a good chunk of the time (Examples provided by TheGrandWazoo), however seeing the current work being produced (or lack thereof) by local authority and other transport authority staff, it only proves that giving these people more work and more control of things will be absolutely disastrous to Wales.

Perhaps you should be applying for one of these jobs at a Local Authority that you think is not up to scratch - you may find out some reality......

I already know the reality, and that's why I wouldn't touch a local authority job with a barge pole.

Separately, I find it rather interesting to see that the way in which you have written your reply, is very similar to that of typical local authority staff these days and the way that they speak to members of the public. Perhaps coincidence but still rather interesting

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Certain things are natural monopolies including public transport. Competition makes no sense for them and so should be publicly run, ideally at a regional level. If anything is a dead hand, it's HM Treasury!

Public transport isn't a natural monopoly though government interference making it difficult to start new operations due to government interventions (you have to buy more, and more expensive, equipment just to start and for a new start up a significant number of your initial passengers won't pay and it will take months to get the government to pay for it) has reduced the amount of competition as there aren't the numbers of new entrants that you used to see. Vehicles are more expensive (accessibility & emissions regs make things more expensive and you may not be able to buy the cheapest due to local emission restrictions, you will need some arrangements or systems to be able to set-up and manage data for legal requirements like BODs and a significant proportion of your initial passengers will not be paying you anything (it is concessionary passengers who will move first to try a new service whilst fare payers will be slower as they may need to wait for season tickets to expire or need you to run for long enough that they can trust you will stay so they move jobs) & the fare cap is currently distorting the market and a new operator will struggle to access that. When I entered the industry you could pick up a half a dozen cheap but reliable old Merc minibuses and old simple ticket machines and be up and running for less than £10k and be taking cash from day one but now that £10k will just about get you two old but increasingly unreliable buses, your ticket machines will probably cost as much as the buses and you need enough money to run for 6 months with almost no income as you wait for the council procedures to work out your concessionary fares reimbursement to start paying you.

Also you shouldn't be seeing public transport as the product and so a standalone and distinct segment, people use public transport to access other things other services and so all of our passengers have a choice - and a lot of them. They have a choice of how to travel (car, walk, bike as well as all modes of shared & public transport), when to travel & where to travel (as why they travel is variable) and it is the latter two which are important to remember in this discussion. I have worked for a Local Authority Passenger Transport Department (& as it happens one in South Wales) and worked with dozens across the country as part of my roles in several bus operators and the one clear lesson is that government at all levels doesn't understand the idea of choice at its heart and only the best will listen to the idea they may be missing something and actually make any action to accommodate this. To a local authority if someone has a link to a retail area and an area of employment they have all they need, and they tend to favour ones inside their own council area rather than crossing borders, and if they aren't the right ones for people they just switch to other modes to make the journey they want - those passengers are then lost to public transport and more traffic slows the buses making them less attractive. A private and commercial operator has an incentive to take people where they want to go which may involve offering multiple options (they may not be offering the precise one you want all the time but they are offering the ones the most people want) to capture more people and not to just tick political boxes

 

[TheSel]

Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask, but does anyone know what's happening to the present service 2 - Mold ~ Ruthin via Maeshafn, Graianrhyd & Llanarmon-yn-Ial?

When I last used it - just before Christmas - I overheard a conversation indicating M&H Coaches had lost the contract from the end of January. Today I've looked on 'BusTimes', and the timetable only runs until this coming Saturday 24 January. I tried Flintshire Council's website, which is pretty useless, and merely links to the various operators' sites. So I went to the 'Traveline Cymru' website, entered a random date next week, and got the message "We’re sorry, no journeys were found for your selection."

 

[Dai Corner]

Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask, but does anyone know what's happening to the present service 2 - Mold ~ Ruthin via Maeshafn, Graianrhyd & Llanarmon-yn-Ial?

When I last used it - just before Christmas - I overheard a conversation indicating M&H Coaches had lost the contract from the end of January. Today I've looked on 'BusTimes', and the timetable only runs until this coming Saturday 24 January. I tried Flintshire Council's website, which is pretty useless, and merely links to the various operators' sites. So I went to the 'Traveline Cymru' website, entered a random date next week, and got the message "We’re sorry, no journeys were found for your selection."

Looks as though GM Buses have got the contract from next week.

Searching on this page brings it up

Pardon Our Interruption

Registration number	Operator name	Service number	Start point	Finish point
PG2071745/1 Variation	GM BUSES LIMITED	2	Mold Bus Station	Ruthin , Market Street

 

[TheSel]

Looks as though GM Buses have got the contract from next week.

Searching on this page brings it up

Pardon Our Interruption

Brilliant! Very Many Thanks.