Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[pokemonsuper9]

The most DMU efficient option that isn't going to cause impossible levels of uproar is probably 2 Vic-Southport via Atherton and a shuttle to Headbolt from the bay, with 2 per hour via Bolton from NW as EMUs.

Agreed, although I wouldn't disapprove of that Headbolt service also coming down the Atherton line.

Could be timed quite well for the connection to/from Southport trains at Hindley (same platform), meaning no walking required.

If you were to run a shuttle on Headbolt services, either you need tight turnarounds at both ends (1 unit), or long turnarounds at both ends (2 units) since it's a 25 minute journey.
In theory with tight turnarounds and 2 units you could do 2tph (5m turnarounds), or maybe 1.5tph (45m frequency) with slightly longer turnarounds to better connect at Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since we are discussing the Wigan to Bolton line, would it be useful for Lostock to be a four-platform station, with two platforms on the Wigan line?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

What is the long term plan for the line, just the 2tph Wigan NW - Stalybridge EMU?

Or could more tph turn at Wigan, or something run onwards towards Preston also?

Maybe a new Wigan NW - Blackpool South service could be made, using 769s, and BEMUs in the future

 

[polskism]

Maybe a new Wigan NW - Blackpool South service could be made, using 769s, and BEMUs in the future

I think it would make more sense for Blackpool South and Ormskirk to be a single through route. I’m not sure why this isn’t already the case i'm sure it may have operated that way in the past.

 

[Elecman]

I think it would make more sense for Blackpool South and Ormskirk to be a single through route. I’m not sure why this isn’t already the case i'm sure it may have operated that way in the past.

It did and was hopeless for timekeeping on the short turn round times at Blackpool South

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did and was hopeless for timekeeping on the short turn round times at Blackpool South

It's a better interwork with Colne (as it is now) as that only needs 2 coaches, as does Ormskirk, but in summer Blackpool needs 4. The timings also work better. The 3 way interworking was woeful in punctuality terms.

 

[Kite159]

Or crazy idea is to extend the Blackpool South - Preston trains to run semi-fast to Blackburn, maybe calling at Bamber Bridge. Where they can use the bay platform at Blackburn, reducing demand on the 3 coach 195 from Blackpool North to York and giving an extra service with the stopper.

Assuming a 4 coach train can fit in that bay at Blackburn

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe a new Wigan NW - Blackpool South service could be made, using 769s, and BEMUs in the future

Is that proposed new service to be in addition to the existing Liverpool Lime Street-Wigan North Western-Blackpool North service?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Is that proposed new service to be in addition to the existing Liverpool Lime Street-Wigan North Western-Blackpool North service?

It's not currently proposed, that was just my idea, linking to Bolton and so on to Preston and Blackpool South.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not currently proposed, that was just my idea, linking to Bolton and so on to Preston and Blackpool South.

I had assumed that you wanted services from Liverpool Lime Street via Wigan North Western to access both Blackpool North and Blackpool South.

 

[Dspatula]

I don't know why they didn't consider bring back the Leeds-Southport wasn't great last time around I know but as an extension of the current timetable you'd get a minimum 49 minute turn round at Southport. It'd only cost one more diagram and you would have to find at least one 158 from somewhere which is easier said than done. The actual timing is for looks to be for 75mph so maybe you could get away with putting two 150s on it.

That would leave you with a 4 hour circuit from Southport the Oxford Road with a 20 minute turn round at Southport, and;
A 3 hour circuit from Wigan North Western to Stalybridge with a 15 minute turn round at Wigan.

If the three 323s were available everything else could have been covered with 4 cars with units out on the route today (2x 769 4x 150 2x 156 that I could see accounting for the usual 769 failure.)

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I had assumed that you wanted services from Liverpool Lime Street via Wigan North Western to access both Blackpool North and Blackpool South.

No, that would be 2 hours, Wigan NW to Blackpoll South would be good.

 

[nr758123]

Not enough capacity at Stalybridge for three turn backs and no paths the Airport either.

3x turnbacks off a single bay platform should be do-able? Services could interwork if needed, as they are all heading back to Wigan NW.

Platform 2 at Stalybridge is barely used. Would that be capable of being used for turnbacks from the line from Victoria or is it only accessible from the Guide Bridge line?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Platform 2 at Stalybridge is barely used. Would that be capable of being used for turnbacks from the line from Victoria or is it only accessible from the Guide Bridge line?

Stalybridge is an awful long way away from Manchester Victoria to be used for turnbacks. Those at Brewery Sidings and near to Salford Central are far nearer, when being considered for turnbacks.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Platform 2 at Stalybridge is barely used. Would that be capable of being used for turnbacks from the line from Victoria or is it only accessible from the Guide Bridge line?

Unlike 5, 2 looks to be accessible from both lines (the ECS to/from Newton Heath for the once a week service uses it).

 

[Howardh]

Since we are discussing the Wigan to Bolton line, would it be useful for Lostock to be a four-platform station, with two platforms on the Wigan line?

Yes, does seem daft to head from Heaton to Bolton then double back when en route to Wigan! One other minus about Lostock is the lack of bus routes calling or nearby. If the station is ever upgraded then I suggest the 573/4 maybe even 575/6 could extend their route and call, would add 5 to 10 mins to the route but I'm sure the timetabellers would cope!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since we are discussing the Wigan to Bolton line, would it be useful for Lostock to be a four-platform station, with two platforms on the Wigan line?

Agree. If you were only going to have them on one I'd go with Wigan as that's the more "local" of the two so stopping is less of a penalty, but both would be better.

It's one of those cheapo 1990s prefab lashups with the red wooden fencing, isn't it? Probably couldn't afford to put them on both.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Yes, does seem daft to head from Heaton to Bolton then double back when en route to Wigan! One other minus about Lostock is the lack of bus routes calling or nearby. If the station is ever upgraded then I suggest the 573/4 maybe even 575/6 could extend their route and call, would add 5 to 10 mins to the route but I'm sure the timetabellers would cope!

The bridge over the station has a weight and width restriction so buses cannot get close enough.

The closest to the station is where the 520 runs through the village.

 

[Howardh]

The bridge over the station has a weight and width restriction so buses cannot get close enough.

The closest to the station is where the 520 runs through the village.

Yes, I'm aware if that! Buses don't have to go over the bridge, they could use the northern link and go back the same way. Use the lights on Beaumont Rd.

 

[amahy]

It's a better interwork with Colne (as it is now) as that only needs 2 coaches, as does Ormskirk, but in summer Blackpool needs 4. The timings also work better. The 3 way interworking was woeful in punctuality terms.

Do 4 car trains work to Blackpool South? I've never seen one myself, only 2 cars, but I would agree that 4 cars are definitely needed - Blackpool South services are always rammed in the Summer, seeing them depart Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do 4 car trains work to Blackpool South? I've never seen one myself, only 2 cars, but I would agree that 4 cars are definitely needed - Blackpool South services are always rammed in the Summer, seeing them depart Preston.

Yes, in summer and illuminations season 4 cars are sometimes used (I have certainly been on a 4 car set on this route), but there aren't enough units spare to make all three legs of the "triangle" 4 car, and neither Ormskirk nor Colne needs it. Thus splitting into an interworked Ormskirk and Colne and a standalone Blackpool made some sense.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Yes, I'm aware if that! Buses don't have to go over the bridge, they could use the northern link and go back the same way. Use the lights on Beaumont Rd.

No need to be snippy, you might not have known.

Running the 573/574 that way would require an extra bus as they are just about timed for one bus continually cycling on themselves, unless they are retired to fit with something that has long layover.

The 575 or 576 could as long as all journeys are single decked due to low trees on Lostock Junction Lane, but that might come at the cost of irking many passengers just for a small number using Lostock station, especially as the main rail flow will be towards Bolton or Manchester anyway (so a greater choice by staying on to the end). But I can see the residents of Lostock Junction Lane complaining about the sudden intrusion of many buses past their big houses!

 

[Howardh]

No need to be snippy, you might not have known.

Running the 573/574 that way would require an extra bus as they are just about timed for one bus continually cycling on themselves, unless they are retired to fit with something that has long layover.

The 575 or 576 could as long as all journeys are single decked due to low trees on Lostock Junction Lane, but that might come at the cost of irking many passengers just for a small number using Lostock station, especially as the main rail flow will be towards Bolton or Manchester anyway (so a greater choice by staying on to the end). But I can see the residents of Lostock Junction Lane complaining about the sudden intrusion of many buses past their big houses!

Sorry to sound snappy, wasn't my intention!

Not sure why we need a 573 circular, maybe the 573 and 574 could be separate services terminating at Lostock, should LOT ever be expanded?

 

[Dspatula]

Platform 2 at Stalybridge is barely used. Would that be capable of being used for turnbacks from the line from Victoria or is it only accessible from the Guide Bridge line?

It is accessible but you have to cross the the Up Ashton and Down Huddersfield to reach it, plus it's only 120 metres long.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Sorry to sound snappy, wasn't my intention!

Not sure why we need a 573 circular, maybe the 573 and 574 could be separate services terminating at Lostock, should LOT ever be expanded?

Isn't the 573 and 574 an amalgamation of several individual services as an efficiency (and thus cost) saving? Just look at what the 583 in Leigh is now, that's ended up being a similar all-around-everywhere route for the same reason.

Even if they were split, they'd probably still end up interworking due to the time taken to do a circuit, even if they turned back at Lostock and interworked at Bolton. It just might involve a third route, or a bit taken out (Sutton Estate maybe?).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Isn't the 573 and 574 an amalgamation of several individual services as an efficiency (and thus cost) saving? Just look at what the 583 in Leigh is now, that's ended up being a similar all-around-everywhere route for the same reason.

The 573 and 574 were created in January 2022 to replace the 570 (the Southern part of the route), the old 574 (the Northern part of the route), and part of the 577 (the Ladybridge section, with the rest of the route un-replaced).

The 583 replaced the 682 (Hag Fold) and 683 (Shakerley/Tyldsley) in October 2020, and then the 595 (Westleigh) in October 2022.

 

[Howardh]

Isn't the 573 and 574 an amalgamation of several individual services as an efficiency (and thus cost) saving? Just look at what the 583 in Leigh is now, that's ended up being a similar all-around-everywhere route for the same reason.

Even if they were split, they'd probably still end up interworking due to the time taken to do a circuit, even if they turned back at Lostock and interworked at Bolton. It just might involve a third route, or a bit taken out (Sutton Estate maybe?).

In fairness mayor Burnham has added more buses over more routes and running later, so cost and efficiency savings of the past probably don't apply now!

 

[DFlannery]

Or crazy idea is to extend the Blackpool South - Preston trains to run semi-fast to Blackburn, maybe calling at Bamber Bridge. Where they can use the bay platform at Blackburn, reducing demand on the 3 coach 195 from Blackpool North to York and giving an extra service with the stopper.

Assuming a 4 coach train can fit in that bay at Blackburn

Northern employee at Blackburn LMD here - i believe you can get a 4 car into the bay on P3! Would be 150/156 X2.

There has been 2 occasions where a 3 195 has been stabled on platform 3 in the past, Due to the driver not being signed at Blackburn depot which meant control had to tell him to leave it in the bay!

I remember that night, I had to clean that train and oh boy it was a mess!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

i believe you can get a 4 car into the bay on P3!

The sectional appendix has it as 72 metres long (i.e. 3 150 carriages), is there a bit of space that can be used to turnaround not in passenger service?

 

[Elecman]

Agree. If you were only going to have them on one I'd go with Wigan as that's the more "local" of the two so stopping is less of a penalty, but both would be better.

It's one of those cheapo 1990s prefab lashups with the red wooden fencing, isn't it? Probably couldn't afford to put them on both.

The signalling overlaps to the junction didn’t permit a platform on the Wigan line ( to Bolton) as it would have stitched up the junction every time a train called.

Yes it was one of the wooden sectional platforms built on 3 metre spacing with the wooden fencing stained Red not painted. (Actually very useful as the original lighting scheme developed wouldn’t fit as not designed with the 3 metre spacing taken into account. The station was lashed up over the weekend before opening with an awful lot of 2D compact fluorescent fittings screwed to the fence)