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Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

DFlannery

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The sectional appendix has it as 72 metres long (i.e. 3 150 carriages), is there a bit of space that can be used to turnaround not in passenger service?
I’ve not seen the appendix, I’ll have to find it to read it but I’ve been on the rochdale service in the past which is a 4 car from Manchester to Blackburn and it typically does goes into the bay!

I know in the past back when we had the 142’s and 153s etc, they would always go into the bay, there’s videos online of the trains coming through the station etc!

Any questions, feel free to ask I’m new here and I work for northern at Blackburn depot so I’m more than happy to answer questions and stuff :)
 
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td97

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Northern haven been awaiting updates for the new turnback sidings at Salford Central. Due to infrastructure delays in Salford the planned EMUs via Hindley for the December 2026 timetable has been shifted to May 2027.
Salford Crescent Platform 3 will be ready for December 2026 TT but to due to other issues services won't serve the platform till May 2027 timetable.

From May 2027 the following is expected.. keeping the same pattern of 2tph each way.

323s will replace 15* & 769 fleets on the new Wigan North Western to Stalybridge via Bolton Services
15* & 769 fleets will remain on the Southport to Manchester Oxford Road via Bolton Services
The Leeds to Wigan Wallgate has been changed and will start/end at Salford Central
A new Manchester Victoria to Southport via Atherton will take over the old Leeds/Wallgate paths.
From the Dec 26 timetable thread ⬆️. It seems odd that 15x would be retained on Southport - Oxford given the 769s released from Stalybridge.
And do I dare ask if the Wigan - Stalybridge is planned as 6-car or 3-car, and how much value for money the taxpayer is going to see from the expensive platform extensions?
 

Starmill

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From the Dec 26 timetable thread ⬆️. It seems odd that 15x would be retained on Southport - Oxford given the 769s released from Stalybridge.
It's because 769s shouldn't be stabled at Southport overnight.

And do I dare ask if the Wigan - Stalybridge is planned as 6-car or 3-car, and how much value for money the taxpayer is going to see from the expensive platform extensions?
Why would any of them be planned for 6...
 

Farigiraf

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Given that both routes between Manchester and Wigan/Southport are commuter lines where the local stations are relatively busy (and therefore need a frequent service), I'm a fan of the planned timetable from 2027.

If you start off with a minimum requirement of 2tph at the intermediate stops on both the Atherton and Bolton/Westhoughton line, fitting in faster services to Southport isn't easy as the lines are max 2 tracks. The current timetable however is a lose-lose case, with both slow journey times to Southport and low frequencies at the local stops.
Now that Wigan-Bolton is wired, also considering that 769s are woefully unreliable, it's a good idea to concentrate the services past Wigan to the unelectrified Atherton line, with the locals covered by more reliable S-Bahn style trains.
The one outlier is the Southport - Manchester via Bolton train. Maintaining a link to Bolton makes sense, however won't the poor reliability and faster stopping pattern not synergise particularly well with the EMU locals?

The main loser is probably the Atherton line - the line passes through some fairly busy areas yet it serves them rather poorly. 2tph (main stations) is usable, 1tph (Moorside) isn't great, and there are a couple of places that are yet to receive a station (e.g. Pendlebury). There isn't really a feasible way of improving this for the forseeable future (even with electrification), as the line can't become the self-contained busy commuter route that it should be while Kirkby and Southport trains still need to get to Manchester somehow.
 
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amahy

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The main loser is probably the Atherton line - the line passes through some fairly busy areas yet it serves them rather poorly. 2tph (main stations) is usable, 1tph (Moorside) isn't great, and there are a couple of places that are yet to receive a station (e.g. Pendlebury). There isn't really a feasible way of improving this for the forseeable future (even with electrification), as the line can't become the self-contained busy commuter route that it should be while Kirkby and Southport trains still need to get to Manchester somehow.
I seem to recall that pre-Covid, there were 3tph along the Atherton line at peak times, skipping some stations between Wigan and Salford Crescent. Also, there is at least one peak time additional train that still runs, the 17:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan NW. Could a full 3tph peak time frequency return anytime soon?
 

Starmill

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To support 6 coaches when they run fast between Bolton & Salford?
And having the Blackpool trains stopping at those stations instead of three stations between Bolton and Leyland? Or just having no service at those three stations... ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I seem to recall that pre-Covid, there were 3tph along the Atherton line at peak times, skipping some stations between Wigan and Salford Crescent. Also, there is at least one peak time additional train that still runs, the 17:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan NW. Could a full 3tph peak time frequency return anytime soon?
The Arriva Northern contract called for four all day. They implemented three all day, replacing the previous 2 off peak and 3-4 peak with skip stopping.
 

Kite159

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And having the Blackpool trains stopping at those stations instead of three stations between Bolton and Leyland? Or just having no service at those three stations... ?
Those 3 stations are only hourly served at the moment (mostly by the Stalybridge - Southport services) with the other Southport service running nonstop between Salford & Bolton, so I've got no clue what you are on about with having no service at those stations.

Extending Hindley, Ince and Westhoughton could allow for some peak time extra services to Wigan North Western which don't call at those smaller stations. Although it won't be the first time station platforms have been lengthened and are little used, just look in Wales at some of the stations towards Rhymmney which were extended to allow 6 coach 150s to call.
 

Starmill

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Those 3 stations are only hourly served at the moment (mostly by the Stalybridge - Southport services) with the other Southport service running nonstop between Salford & Bolton, so I've got no clue what you are on about with having no service at those stations
Sorry, I thought it was obvious as per the previous discussion. A six car diagram would need to be scheduled independently so you'd end up with calls on different halves of the hour all jumbled up through the day. It'd also mean if a six stepped up then stops would end up being cancelled. I think we can rule that idea out.

More concerning it appears that the idea of more 323s isn't going anywhere so there wouldn't actually be enough units anyway.
 

Kite159

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A crazy idea for those 3 stations between Bolton & Salford is an hourly stopper between Bolton & Stalybridge using a single 323, giving Ashton back it's 2tph and allowing both Southport services to be sped up. Making use of the bay platform at Bolton.
 

Gricer99

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It all seems to make the recent electrification between WNW and Bolton even less value for money.
 

daodao

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A crazy idea for those 3 stations between Bolton & Salford is an hourly stopper between Bolton & Stalybridge using a single 323, giving Ashton back it's 2tph and allowing both Southport services to be sped up. Making use of the bay platform at Bolton.
The simplest solution would be to run:
  • A half hourly electric all stations stopping service from Wigan NW to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria
  • A half hourly diesel service from Southport to Victoria (or preferably Rochdale), calling east of Wigan Wallgate at Hindley and then all stations via Atherton
  • A half hourly service by Merseyrail from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, run by battery electric class 777 trains, terminating in the bay platform at Wigan and connecting there with the train service from Southport to Manchester
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The simplest solution would be to run:

  • A half hourly service by Merseyrail from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, run by battery electric class 777 trains, terminating in the bay platform at Wigan and connecting there with the train service from Southport to Manchester
Why has this particular aspiration been often a point of discussion over the past years on internet forums (with other Merseyrail type units and the necessary 3rd rail extension) but never proceeded with by the operational company?
 

Starmill

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The simplest solution would be to run:
  • A half hourly electric all stations stopping service from Wigan NW to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria
  • A half hourly diesel service from Southport to Victoria (or preferably Rochdale), calling east of Wigan Wallgate at Hindley and then all stations via Atherton
  • A half hourly service by Merseyrail from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, run by battery electric class 777 trains, terminating in the bay platform at Wigan and connecting there with the train service from Southport to Manchester
That's a sensible outcome but not what kite was talking about, which was ways to deploy six cars.
 

pr1

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A half hourly service by Merseyrail from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, run by battery electric class 777 trains, terminating in the bay platform at Wigan and connecting there with the train service from Southport to Manchester
It's quite crazy that Merseyrail have so many "almost not quite" services (Ormskirk rather than, say, Burscough; Headbolt Lane rather than Wigan). Using the Wallgate bay for Merseyrail services makes sense, utilising Rainford for Skelmersdale, it all seems long long overdue.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It's quite crazy that Merseyrail have so many "almost not quite" services (Ormskirk rather than, say, Burscough; Headbolt Lane rather than Wigan). Using the Wallgate bay for Merseyrail services makes sense, utilising Rainford for Skelmersdale, it all seems long long overdue.
What reasons have been suggested by the operating companies for not fulfilling those particular aspirations?
 

Manutd1999

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simplest solution would be to run:
  • A half hourly electric all stations stopping service from Wigan NW to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria
  • A half hourly diesel service from Southport to Victoria (or preferably Rochdale), calling east of Wigan Wallgate at Hindley and then all stations via Atherton
By far the best solution IMO.

The key to "selling it" to Southport may be to time the Atherton trains well, with a short, same platform connection at Salford Crescent onto the Blackpool-Airport services. That would keep an easy connection to Castlefield, albeit requiring a change.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Why has this particular aspiration been often a point of discussion over the past years on internet forums (with other Merseyrail type units and the necessary 3rd rail extension) but never proceeded with by the operational company?

What reasons have been suggested by the operating companies for not fulfilling those particular aspirations?

As far as Wigan-Kirkby is concerned it's simply down to passenger demand. The only stations which are used very much are Pemberton and Orrell. The outward demand is overwhelmingly eastbound and most of that for points beyond Wigan, particularly Manchester and Salford. The actual location of the stations relative to the local population means that purely local journeys to/from Wigan are much more conveniently made by bus. There is also some inward traffic to Orrell consisting of students attending Winstanley College with many travelling from Atherton/Hag Fold/Daisy Hill.

What is missed by those advocating turning over the route to Merseyrail is the likelihood of the above passengers being lost to rail if every such journey required a change of train in Wigan. Of course many, many rail journeys across the country require a change of train each and every day but in this case the risk of putting passngers off is very real. And the loss of through journeys for the above mentioned students would almost certainly lead to TfGM having to provide through bus services instead.

In short the route is no money-spinner and a careful watch needs to be kept on the likely effects on revenue of any changes to the current service provision. Seeking to reduce operating costs is all very well (many electrification schemes have been driven by this) but if the resulting service provides a worse service to passengers then it becomes another instance of knowing the cost of something without understanding its true value.
 

stevieinselby

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It's quite crazy that Merseyrail have so many "almost not quite" services (Ormskirk rather than, say, Burscough; Headbolt Lane rather than Wigan). Using the Wallgate bay for Merseyrail services makes sense, utilising Rainford for Skelmersdale, it all seems long long overdue.
If you extend the Ormskirk service to Burscough then you're making journeys between Ormskirk and Preston harder. At 34,000 journeys, Ormskirk to Preston is a significantly bigger flow than current total ridership from Burscough Junction ... and while I'm sure that Burscough Junction would see ridership increase if it joined Merseyrail, it's questionable whether it would see enough of a gain that it would outweigh the loss of a direct service from Ormskirk to Preston.

On the Kirkby line, there's little merit in extending the service to Rainford or Upholland because they are not well placed to serve any meaningful population unless you extend a branch into Skelmersdale itself – and by the time you get to Orrell, demand is much stronger looking east to Manchester than west to Liverpool, so making passengers change at Wigan would disrupt people's established travel patterns and be a degradation of the service for many people.
 

pokemonsuper9

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– and by the time you get to Orrell, demand is much stronger looking east to Manchester than west to Liverpool, so making passengers change at Wigan would disrupt people's established travel patterns and be a degradation of the service for many people.
However, if you run 2tph (ideally with good connections), and a later service than current, I think it would quickly establish as superior.

Currently it's 1tph, with the last from Wigan towards Headbolt Lane is 19:14, and there's no Sunday service.
 

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