Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[Dspatula]

Who will do this "forcing"?

Only the government can.

2ph EMU all-stop Wigan-Bolton-Victoria-Stalybridge
1ph EMU all-stop Wigan-(Golbourne)-Victoria-Stalybridge
2ph DMU all-stop Wigan/Headbolt Ln-Atherton-Victoria-Rochdale
1ph DMU semi-fast Southport-Wigan-Atherton-Oxford Rd-Airport

That would be a reasonable compromise IMO (i.e. Southport keeps service to Castlefield but gets a reduction to 1ph overall, smaller stations get a minimum half-hourly service).

Not enough capacity at Stalybridge for three turn backs and no paths the Airport either.
Two DMUs an hour to Headbolt lane is a waste of a limited resource.

2tph Southport - Atherton - Manchester is definitely my strong preference. However, this is all but impossible to offer with one to Oxford Road and one to Victoria, so it is very unlikely.

Makes sense for binning off the 769s needs the turn back at Brewery jn to be done just switch the current via Bolton services to terminating at Wigan North West.
eg. Southport - Atherton - Victoria 2ph
Wigan North Western- Stalybridge 1ph
Wigan North Western- Oxford Rd 1ph
All you need to do is find somewhere to put the Headbolt lane train and I'd say this is the most realistic option on the table.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Only the government can.

At this moment in time, has the Government given any intimation that they will proceed with the "forcing" that was previously mentioned?

 

[Ant158]

You could be very brutal about it by cutting Clitheroe/Blackburn past Bolton;
2 per
1 per hour Clitheroe- Bolton
1 per hour Blackburn- Bolton - 4 diagrams combined 15x

Cutting the direct link from Blackburn and beyond to Victoria and also Salford stations, aside from being really inconvenient for passengers wouldn’t be a great option.

Most Clitheroe commuters would likely just drive instead as it already a slow unreliable, overcrowded service, add in a scrum at Bolton and the unpredictable connections. This would also mean getting rid of direct links to Manchester from stations in the Tfgm boundary such as Bromley Cross. There are a lot of mixed flows on the line, being used for access to work, education and leisure.

 

[Manutd1999]

Not enough capacity at Stalybridge for three turn backs and no paths the Airport either.
Two DMUs an hour to Headbolt lane is a waste of a limited resource.

3x turnbacks off a single bay platform should be do-able? Services could interwork if needed, as they are all heading back to Wigan NW.

Extending to the Airport may be possible once the Oxford Rd and Airport platforms upgrades are complete. If not it could continue to stop at Oxford Rd.

I was planning 1ph to Headbolt Lane, with the other either terminating at Wigan or maybe going to Southport.

 

[amahy]

3x turnbacks off a single bay platform should be do-able? Services could interwork if needed, as they are all heading back to Wigan NW.

Indeed, 3 turn backs an hour should certainly be doable of one platform - Dalmuir has 4 turn backs an hour off its bay platform!

 

[Manutd1999]

Intensive use of the Stalybridge and Rochdale turnbacks makes a lot of sense. A clockface 4ph from each with inter-working as required would be a good solution IMO.

Stalybridge could be a terminus for the suburban EMU network - 2ph to Wigan via Bolton and 2ph to Liverpool/Wigan via Chat Moss.That would fit nicely alongside the 4ph fast TPE services via Victoria, with one stopper in each 15 min gap.

Rochdale could serve a similar role for the DMU network - 2ph to Wigan via Atherton and 2ph to Blackburn via Bolton.

 

[Class15]

Indeed, 3 turn backs an hour should certainly be doable of one platform - Dalmuir has 4 turn backs an hour off its bay platform!

Stratford platforms 1 and 2 manage 5+ tph each in the peak

 

[Gricer99]

The Headbolt Lane to Blackburn service is a very strange and convoluted route. I'm sure no-one travels the full length of the route and if you wanted to get to Blackburn from Headbolt Lane the quicker journeys offered on the Northern app art to Change, at Wigan and Bolton or even go via Merseyrail to Moorfields and Preston. There is no lte evening service either, so I'm sure not too many folk would be upset if the full route was abandoned and rwplaced with a half hourly shuttle between HL and Wigan Wallgate, timed to connect with the Southport services at Wallgate. The bay platform could be used for the shuttle.

 

[Brubulus]

The Headbolt Lane to Blackburn service is a very strange and convoluted route. I'm sure no-one travels the full length of the route and if you wanted to get to Blackburn from Headbolt Lane the quicker journeys offered on the Northern app art to Change, at Wigan and Bolton or even go via Merseyrail to Moorfields and Preston. There is no lte evening service either, so I'm sure not too many folk would be upset if the full route was abandoned and rwplaced with a half hourly shuttle between HL and Wigan Wallgate, timed to connect with the Southport services at Wallgate. The bay platform could be used for the shuttle.

This also paves the way to just run 777s on the route, which is the obvious long term solution.

 

[Starmill]

An evening and weekend service from Headbolt Lane is very unlikely, because of the operational cost of more drivers and conductors and the signaller at Rainford. Making it into a shuttle on that basis would be the best solution by far, although it is very unlikely.

 

[Dspatula]

3x turnbacks off a single bay platform should be do-able? Services could interwork if needed, as they are all heading back to Wigan NW.

Extending to the Airport may be possible once the Oxford Rd and Airport platforms upgrades are complete. If not it could continue to stop at Oxford Rd.

I was planning 1ph to Headbolt Lane, with the other either terminating at Wigan or maybe going to Southport.

Yeah I don't know where I was getting that idea from, my own timetable has 10 minute turn arounds at Stalybridge so there must be capacity for 4tph between the fasts.
The Rochdale however definitely can't accommodate more than 2 stoppers without a complete re-wright of the timetable.

Cutting the direct link from Blackburn and beyond to Victoria and also Salford stations, aside from being really inconvenient for passengers wouldn’t be a great option.

Most Clitheroe commuters would likely just drive instead as it already a slow unreliable, overcrowded service, add in a scrum at Bolton and the unpredictable connections. This would also mean getting rid of direct links to Manchester from stations in the Tfgm boundary such as Bromley Cross. There are a lot of mixed flows on the line, being used for access to work, education and leisure.

I did say it wasn't possible politically, but half the passengers switch at Bolton anyway, two carriage DMUs are taking up space on a line that could be using 3, 4 and 6 carriage EMUs and the single track feds significate delays on to the rest of the network.

At this moment in time, has the Government given any intimation that they will proceed with the "forcing" that was previously mentioned?

Given this a purely hypothetical scenario limited to this internet forum why would they be?

 

[Halish Railway]

I did say it wasn't possible politically, but half the passengers switch at Bolton anyway, two carriage DMUs are taking up space on a line that could be using 3, 4 and 6 carriage EMUs and the single track feds significate delays on to the rest of the network.

With Northern’s new trains coming in the next few years, I’d imagine that the Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale services will most likely switch to being operated by 4 car bi-mode trains, or Class 195s at least, which are a an adequate use of rail capacity. Pathing them will be helped by being able to use the wires south of Bolton and running at 100mph.

 

[biggerisbetter]

2ph EMU all-stop Wigan-Bolton-Victoria-Stalybridge
1ph EMU all-stop Wigan-(Golbourne)-Victoria-Stalybridge
2ph DMU all-stop Wigan/Headbolt Ln-Atherton-Victoria-Rochdale
1ph DMU semi-fast Southport-Wigan-Atherton-Oxford Rd-Airport

That would be a reasonable compromise IMO (i.e. Southport keeps service to Castlefield but gets a reduction to 1ph overall, smaller stations get a minimum half-hourly service).

Is there capacity for the via Goldborne service to be extended to Preston (even if only some of these - as the 0739 for example comes ECS from Preston Crofton Street)? Would provide a few usual benefits:

- Direct connection from Preston and Leyland to Victoria
- Direct connection to Manchester for Euxton
- Improved frequencies between Wigan and Preston
- Improved frequencies and capacity between Preston and Manchester (similar journey times between these stations and Victoria as the current Northern services to Oxford Road)

Given the journey between Wigan and Preston is 19 minutes stopping at both Leyland and Euxton, it would only require one additional unit / crew and I imagine 4-car 331s or if they were introduced to Northern 350/2s would provide sufficient capacity. Appreciate this would obviously only work if there are paths on the WCML and if this is considered an effective use of these paths.

 

[Some guy]

Is there capacity for the via Goldborne service to be extended to Preston (even if only some of these - as the 0739 for example comes ECS from Preston Crofton Street)? Would provide a few usual benefits:

- Direct connection from Preston and Leyland to Victoria
- Direct connection to Manchester for Euxton
- Improved frequencies between Wigan and Preston
- Improved frequencies and capacity between Preston and Manchester (similar journey times between these stations and Victoria as the current Northern services to Oxford Road)

Given the journey between Wigan and Preston is 19 minutes stopping at both Leyland and Euxton, it would only require one additional unit / crew and I imagine 4-car 331s or if they were introduced to Northern 350/2s would provide sufficient capacity. Appreciate this would obviously only work if there are paths on the WCML and if this is considered an effective use of these paths.

Absolutely that train should start from Preston but possibly they have attempted it but due to pathing and freight they won’t be able to fit it in.

I say the same for the first Windermere service it goes ECS to Lancaster with crew on it when that service could easy start at Preston

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely that train should start from Preston but possibly they have attempted it but due to pathing and freight they won’t be able to fit it in.

I say the same for the first Windermere service it goes ECS to Lancaster with crew on it when that service could easy start at Preston

The train at present is unlikely to have a conductor so it would add time for one to get to Preston and work it to Wigan, which is likely to be the main reason it hasn't been done.

 

[Dspatula]

With Northern’s new trains coming in the next few years, I’d imagine that the Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale services will most likely switch to being operated by 4 car bi-mode trains, or Class 195s at least, which are a an adequate use of rail capacity. Pathing them will be helped by being able to use the wires south of Bolton and running at 100mph.

And that's the heart of the issue the new fleet won't be here for years the current one is already collapsing you just have to look at the endemic short-formings through Bolton and elsewhere, how long before that becomes constant cancellations due to lack of units?
Tough choice could be made to put EMUs in place by next December if the will was there. Surely a split service that can be maintained than a through one that can't? I suppose it depends on what sort of mid term pain people want.

 

[td97]

The May 2026 timetable is uploaded, and the Wigan service is to remain unchanged. It is an embarrassment that this £100m investment remains unused in both electrification and civils (platform extensions) sense.
The service provided by DMUs and the pitiful handful of 769s which make it off the depot (Monday to Saturday only) is to continue.

 

[Starmill]

The May 2026 timetable is uploaded, and the Wigan service is to remain unchanged. It is an embarrassment that this £100m investment remains unused in both electrification and civils (platform extensions) sense.
The service provided by DMUs and the pitiful handful of 769s which make it off the depot (Monday to Saturday only) is to continue.

I wouldn't be expecting a lot to change for December either.

 

[geoffk]

I wouldn't be expecting a lot to change for December either.

Isn't the plan to run half-hourly Wigan NW - Bolton - Man Vic - Stalybridge? I assume this requires a significant recast of services across Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wouldn't be expecting a lot to change for December either.

What do the powers-that-be have to say with regards to the utilisation of such an improved rail asset?

 

[Starmill]

Isn't the plan to run half-hourly Wigan NW - Bolton - Man Vic - Stalybridge? I assume this requires a significant recast of services across Manchester.

This is waiting for the two new turnback sidings near Salford Central and one near Brewery Jn, so it will probably be May 2027.

 

[td97]

In no uncertain terms, the original project goal in 2021 was

upgrade to enable longer electric trains with more capacity by 2025, building a greener rail network

Statements like the above aren't published in Government press releases without substance - there will have been a detailed timetable study for this scheme.

Green light given for Wigan to Bolton electrification

Major upgrade, including electrification and longer electric trains, to railway line between Wigan and Bolton announced.

www.gov.uk

The project was completed broadly on time within the stated timeframe of 2024/2025. It's worth noting the Manchester Recovery Taskforce was initiated in Jan 2020.

Allowing the infrastructure to languish for a further 2 years after completion is wholly unacceptable when a significant taxpayer investment has been made, worsened still by the rolling stock unreliability with the existing service and DMU shortage on other Northern routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The May 2026 timetable is uploaded, and the Wigan service is to remain unchanged. It is an embarrassment that this £100m investment remains unused in both electrification and civils (platform extensions) sense.
The service provided by DMUs and the pitiful handful of 769s which make it off the depot (Monday to Saturday only) is to continue.

769s are using it. I went on one on Christmas Eve and we didn't pan down until Ince.

OK, they're unreliable junk, but it's probably getting as much use as the Ordsall white elephant. What happened to Northern getting all the spare ones so that, even if they can only get a low number in service each day, they can at least work all the diagrams for them?

 

[Starmill]

In no uncertain terms, the original project goal in 2021 was

Statements like the above aren't published in Government press releases without substance - there will have been a detailed timetable study for this scheme.

Green light given for Wigan to Bolton electrification

Major upgrade, including electrification and longer electric trains, to railway line between Wigan and Bolton announced.

www.gov.uk

The project was completed broadly on time within the stated timeframe of 2024/2025. It's worth noting the Manchester Recovery Taskforce was initiated in Jan 2020.

Allowing the infrastructure to languish for a further 2 years after completion is wholly unacceptable when a significant taxpayer investment has been made, worsened still by the rolling stock unreliability with the existing service and DMU shortage on other Northern routes.

Indeed but apart from some tinkering there won't be any scope to run more trains without the turnbacks being in place. A three car 323 or any combination of 331 vehicles could work the Sunday services, but that would require some of them to actually run first. Currently there are none.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

769s are using it. I went on one on Christmas Eve and we didn't pan down until Ince.

OK, they're unreliable junk, but it's probably getting as much use as the Ordsall white elephant. What happened to Northern getting all the spare ones so that, even if they can only get a low number in service each day, they can at least work all the diagrams for them?

Two Transport for Wales ones showed up, that was it. I think at least one of them has gone back to store now.

 

[cle]

Could be a short term home for 350s? Over-specced as they are for it…

Agree with the sentiment, there can’t always be another stupid kick-the-can dependency (we need the turn backs) - as it’s not true.

 

[Starmill]

Could be a short term home for 350s? Over-specced as they are for it…

Agree with the sentiment, there can’t always be another stupid kick-the-can dependency (we need the turn backs) - as it’s not true.

I agree to be honest. However the Taskforce has a pretty iron grip on the changes, as their brief is to prevent any backsliding to the May 2018 issues, not to deliver the best possible returns on existing investments.

I'd argue the business case for the Wigan - Bolton electrification was quite flawed as it was clear it would bring hardly any benefit alone. For example there was no scope to include platform extension at Farnworth and Moses Gate or modernisation of the dump that is Kearsley station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

II'd argue the business case for the Wigan - Bolton electrification was quite flawed as it was clear it would bring hardly any benefit alone.

Depends if you think stopping burning dead dinosaurs is in and of itself a benefit. I do. It won't do that now of course, but in ten years' time when Northern's fleet is mostly bimode/trimode it will - wires all the way to Wigan mean you could do Southport and back on batteries.

Yes, you can run DMUs via Atherton all the way, and there is a reasonable case to do that in the interim so EMUs can run to Wigan via Bolton, but hopefully by the time the new units are close to being available Metrolink proposals for that will have advanced further; diesel urban metro services in England's arguable second city belong in the 1990s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just thinking of the good old days when "Newton Heath's finest" (aka Class 142 Pacers) were always provided well into their dotage on a wide assortment of lines.

 

[cle]

I wish the business case had more growth attached to it (doubling service) - to actually metro up the commuter rail in Manchester more - but who knows what’ll come.

It’s part of the broader NW wiring - remember how it was! So it’s a good thing, but I do agree that maybe other regional schemes could have been done ahead of it - Didcot-Oxford seems most acute but broader; EWR, Bristol, Ely-P’boro (or Norwich) - let alone bigger ones.

 

[Starmill]

Depends if you think stopping burning dead dinosaurs is in and of itself a benefit. I do. It won't do that now of course, but in ten years' time when Northern's fleet is mostly bimode/trimode it will - wires all the way to Wigan mean you could do Southport and back on batteries.

Yes, you can run DMUs via Atherton all the way, and there is a reasonable case to do that in the interim so EMUs can run to Wigan via Bolton, but hopefully by the time the new units are close to being available Metrolink proposals for that will have advanced further; diesel urban metro services in England's arguable second city belong in the 1990s.

Don't get me wrong, it still brings benefits. I was just saying that they're smaller than planned, not that they're zero. The 769s do work, albeit not always. And when they work they do use less fuel and emit less atmospheric carbon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

I wish the business case had more growth attached to it (doubling service) - to actually metro up the commuter rail in Manchester more - but who knows what’ll come.

Indeed. Double 323s on half-hourly Wigan North Western - Stalybridge would be a dream. A replacement station at Clifton and a new station at Droylsden could then be served half-hourly all day, offering massive capacity and convenient journey times even with the large number of stops. Long term as you say it would then go up to quarter-hourly. Clearly the demand for this sort of thing is there but we're well into wishful thinking territory sadly.