AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

[Spartacus]

Might the differential in passenger numbers be that there were 85 reserved seats on departure from Glasgow, but there may have been walk-ups both there and at Carlisle?

No, there were 86 counted on a headcheck for evacuation.

 

[Taylor-j01]

I was driving over Shap when this got announced.

I drive it 3 times a week, and let me tell you this morning's wind and rain on Sshap was wild.

At Penrith and Kendal the wind was moderate but coming over the top the rain was very, very heavy and the wind sock it's been a few months since I've seen it like that, but coupled with the rain it was very hard to keep the brand-new sprinter in the lane; that's how severe the wind was.

I think it took a lot of people by surprise as within 20 minutes it was back to normal; it's not like I'm used to driving through storms up there 3 times a week for 5 years it must have been the wind direction too, but I think the winds up Shap and rain early this morning have been worse than predicted.

Cumbria has had a lot of rain. The fields where I live flooded this morning, which I was surprised at, as it takes a lot to flood these fields by my house.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I share everyone's relief to learn that there were no injuries, and I think it's interesting that this is the second major incident involving a Pendolino coming off the rails in Cumbria. Thankfully I don't see this unit being scrapped, but I still thought it was an interesting coincidence, especially when just last night I chose to read up on the Grayrigg derailment. Regardless, how long can we expect 390 117 to be out of action before it gets fixed up?

The Ambulance Service did mention some minor injuries in their report, maybe 8 or so.
But they were all treated on site, and nobody needed transfer to hospital.

 

[themiller]

It looks like only the leading bogie was derailed. From Cumbria Crack:

 

[Horizon22]

And yet we can't have any more of them because they don't meet modern crashworthiness standards...
I think it has more than proved itself to be a very solid design!!!

That just means newer trains would potentially handle such an incident even better.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

That just means newer trains would potentially handle such an incident even better.

The outcome in a case like this would probably be little different. More modern units like the 80x also have lightweight noses which are designed to break under heavy impact, with the main structure behind it being the protective bit - same as a Pendolino.

 

[Efini92]

It looks like only the leading bogie was derailed. From Cumbria Crack:

Both bogies are off on that picture.

 

[Strathclyder]

That set, of course, was thrown down a hill and onto its side, there should be no reason to write off 117.

Quite. It'll be off for a while for repairs (hopefully not for as long as 395008 has been!) and how Avanti manage capacity-wise in the meantime remains to be seen, but it ain't a write-off at all.

 

[Liam L]

Quite. It'll be off for a while for repairs (hopefully not for as long as 395008 has been!) and how Avanti manage capacity-wise in the meantime remains to be seen, but it ain't a write-off at all.

A theard has been opened up which will give a explanation, apparently the damaged cars are on the docks waiting shipment to Japan for repairs.

 

[BrianW]

This area is very vulnerable to high rainfall totals due to the topography and prevailing wind. Playing any rainfall radar for this area overnight shows plenty of bouts of rainfall moving west to east, gaining intensity as it hits the high ground, then further east has either disappeared or is much weaker. Given Shap is high up, the intensity here will be much higher than at sea level or the leeward side of high ground. According to the live flood map, in the last 24 hours Wet Sleddale, the nearest gauge to Shap, received 51.9mm of rainfall, however Scalebeck to the east only received 11mm in the same period. Over the Lake District it was even higher, with several gauges seeing over 60mm and Honister apparently seeing 138mm! (the latter one is surrounded by several peaks over 600m above sea level)

Echoes of Carmont?

Two images of the extent. Note that the landslip shown in image 2 is in the background of image 1.

Looking Carmont-like.
Warnings? Monitoring devices? 24/7 observation or 'weekend working'?

Yes seen a lot of those post Carmont, aren’t they supposed to send warnings when movements occur ? so it’ll be interesting to find out if anything was received.

I was driving over Shap when this got announced. I drive it 3 times a week and let me tell you this mornings wind and rain on shap was wild. At Penrith and Kendal the wind was moderate but coming over the top the rain was very very heavy and the wind sock its been a few months since ive seen it like that but coupled with the rain it was very hard to keep the brand new sprinter in the lane thats how severe the wind was. I think it took alot of people by surprise as within 20 minutes it was back to normal; its not like im used to driving through storms up there 3 times a week for 5 years it must of been the wind direction too but I think the winds up shap and rain early this morning have been worse than predicted.
Cumbria has had alot of rain with the fields were I live flooded this morning which I was surprised at it takes alot to flood these fields by my house.

Looks like warnings of a kind? Management oversight?
Lessons will be learned.
It could cartainly have been worse.
I've just been reading David Hare's play 'The Permanent Way' recalling accidents/ disasters at Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Hatfield, Potters Bar.

 

[nolypops83]

Yes seen a lot of those post Carmont, aren’t they supposed to send warnings when movements occur ? so it’ll be interesting to find out if anything was received.

I thought that too. They are supposed to send alerts, we have them on the ECML

Remote monitoring equipment​

We first began trialling ground inclinometers or tilt meters to measure earth movement in Scotland in 2022 before rolling out this tech to the rest of the railway.

The wireless tilt metres are drilled into slopes and are typically spaced two-and-a-half metres apart. They use sensors to detect soil and rock movement. They send an alert via the mobile network to our control room when there’s more than a five-degree tilt.

This helps prepare our train controllers of potential danger, so we can slow trains down before they reach the problem area.
The system also shares a photograph of the area to allow geotechnical engineers to assess it remotely.
The system is powered by solar panels with battery back-up available – making it more sustainable.
We’re constantly trialling new technology so we can better manage the impact of severe weather and keep you and freight moving safely.

Using technology to prevent landslips - Network Rail

Find out about the innovative tech we're using to monitor and prevent landslips. Giving you smoother and more reliable journeys.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

I may not be an expert but I would be EXTREMELY surprised if 117 was a write off.

You would have to wonder why a unit would be written off when one coach derailed but remained upright, not deformed in any way apart from nose cone damage.

That's like saying the 450 that derailed at 90mph at Weybridge a couple of years ago should have been written off, likewise the Azuma involved in the collision at Neville Hill a few years ago. Or the 395 that overan the buffer stops last year.

 

[chiltern trev]

Looking at the landslip picture, there does not seem to be a 'ditch' or drain or gully or mud catch pit between the ballast and embankment.

Should there be or is it all full of ballast?

 

[318266]

I thought that too. They are supposed to send alerts, we have them on the ECML

Using technology to prevent landslips - Network Rail

Find out about the innovative tech we're using to monitor and prevent landslips. Giving you smoother and more reliable journeys.

www.networkrail.co.uk

If the landslip happened very shortly before the derailment (or even a fairly short period), I doubt it would be actioned early enough to stop a 80mph (or so) train from hitting it.

 

[Straus]

Is there sufficient data coverage round there to send any alert signals?

 

[chrisjo]

Is there sufficient data coverage round there to send any alert signals?

Yes, it's fine all the way along the M6

 

[Iskra]

Apologies if it has been discussed already (it’s a lengthy thread to read), but; how does one go about using cranes to re-rail the Pendo when there are overhead wires in the way? Do they take the wires down first, or try and work around them?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apologies if it has been discussed already (it’s a lengthy thread to read), but; how does one go about using cranes to re-rail the Pendo when there are overhead wires in the way? Do they take the wires down first, or try and work around them?

I suspect they will use jacks to avoid that. Although not guaranteed.

 

[Snow1964]

Judging by the line of little white spheres in image 2 it looks like that earthwork was already being actively monitored.

Actively or maybe passively intermittently.

An active monitor possibly should have been able to transmit a warning message. Passive ones get periodically checked to see if still in line.

 

[AndyPJG]

I thought that too. They are supposed to send alerts, we have them on the ECML

Using technology to prevent landslips - Network Rail

Find out about the innovative tech we're using to monitor and prevent landslips. Giving you smoother and more reliable journeys.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Thing is, this looks like more of a wash-out rather than a earth slip. Most of the cutting hasn;t moved, just a lot of earth washed down onto the track. (Drainage issue methinks)

 

[StoneRoad]

Looking at the landslip picture, there does not seem to be a 'ditch' or drain or gully or mud catch pit between the ballast and embankment.

Should there be or is it all full of ballast?

I think what cess / gully there is has been filled with mud & debris ...

 

[cf111]

The 390s really are built like tanks. I'm glad everyone walked away from this.

 

[Annetts key]

I suspect they will use jacks to avoid that. Although not guaranteed.

I'm far from an expert, but of the (small number of) derailments that I have attended or watched (while doing my own duties nearby), if the train/car/coach/unit/waggon/loco) is upright and doesn’t have to be moved very far, yes, they will use jacks. Then slew it sideways back to the four foot. Then lower it back onto the rails. Or onto skates.

 

[Tramfan]

I suspect they will use jacks to avoid that. Although not guaranteed.

Yeah, there'll likely be specialist re-railing equipment that will jack the front end up and then effectively edge it sideways back towards the rail.

 

[Annetts key]

Actively or maybe passively intermittently.

An active monitor possibly should have been able to transmit a warning message. Passive ones get periodically checked to see if still in line.

Landslip system

The following is from memory, so I may have not got it fully accurate. But it's something like this:

The movement sensors communicate with a main sensor. That in turn is suppose to communicate (via the mobile phone network) with a computer in a control room. But it's a Network Rail maintenance control, not operations control.

The system is installed by and maintained by the company that provided it (or whoever they sub-contract the work to).

The staff who monitor this system (they also monitor other systems) will evaluate the data. Then if it requires immediate attention, contact operations control.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

Looking at the landslip picture, there does not seem to be a 'ditch' or drain or gully or mud catch pit between the ballast and embankment.

Should there be or is it all full of ballast?

There may or may not be a ditch or drainage channel. But these are normally only provided if there is likely to be water that needs to be drained. Otherwise, most cuttings just level out for the cess, then there is the ballast shoulder. And the cess in cuttings may not be very wide anyway (one metre or less).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

Okay, I've refreshed my memory. Here's some more details of the equipment and system that Network Rail uses to detect landslips or other movements of earthworks:

Earthworks Monitoring Devices

They are a form of monitoring technology comprised of sensors and cameras which are intended to detect movements of earthworks.

They transmit earthwork movement data to a remote condition monitoring system. When this detects that safety thresholds are breached, alerts or alarms are generated.

At the Control Centre, the Intelligent Infrastructure Technician will be able to remotely monitor sites using an application which collates data and provide alerts and alarms when movement is identified on the tilt sensors/monitors.

Earthworks Monitoring Devices are physical tilt sensors/monitors and supplementary equipment. These
comprise of the following technology components across each site:
Each 5-chain site (110-yard site) will comprise the following equipment unless specified:
- On average, Tilt Sensors x 40
- DCU 450 Logger including GRPS Modem and Battery x 1
- Solar Panel x 1
- Steel Galvanised Mounting Pole x 1
- Still image cam

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yeah, there'll likely be specialist re-railing equipment that will jack the front end up and then effectively edge it sideways back towards the rail.

This assumes that the rails are still to gauge.

 

[dk1]

Deleted

 

[DaveyJones]

5R22 looks to be in Platform 3 at Penrith

 

[sonic2009]

5R22 looks to be in Platform 3 at Penrith

Is this the 57 + 390117?

 

[trainmania100]

A few pictures of the front of the train but does anyone seen any of the actual landslip and the conditions of the embankment? I'm no expert but considering the whole nose of the train came off it must be quite a bit earth movement, contrary to the photos where the embankment isn't actually that much higher than the train