Should we have a universal ID card?

[Yew]

How does it work in say, Belgium, where all people over 12 have ID cards? Have they fallen victim to this authoritarian conspiracy?

Let us take that policy of ID cards over the age of 12, and apply it to the current situation in the USA, I'm sure you can see how that might make it easier for problematic policies to be enforced, and unfortunately we are not immune to having some sort of extremist government.

I didn't say that ID cards cause a slip to authoritarianism, but it does make it easier for such a government to enforce very controversial policies. Similar to how the Nazis could use IBM punch card tabulating machines to more efficiently round up Jews during the holocaust.

 

[DarloRich]

So what happens if someone forgets to take it out with them, has it stolen or lost? Warning, fine, imprisonment? All sounds like a slippery slope to me.

then you get a presenter like you used to do with your driving license. It isn't difficult..........

The UK population simply doesn't have the trust or confidence in the government to operate such a system

I think that is a fair point but our medical records or our tax data or our police records seem to be held with a decent level of confidence

Let us take that policy of ID cards over the age of 12, and apply it to the current situation in the USA, I'm sure you can see how that might make it easier for problematic policies to be enforced, and unfortunately we are not immune to having some sort of extremist government.

How? How would having an ID card make it easier for problematic polices to be enforced? Expand, explain? In considering that I repeat: How does Belgium cope?

 

[Hadders]

Why?

If you make it compulsory to carry ID cards then what is the penalty if you’re found not to be in possession of yours?

We risk criminalising a whole load of people for simply forgetting an ID card, or not carrying it with them, for whatever reason.

People also have very short memories. Just think what could’ve happened if we’d had compulsory ID cards during covid lockdowns with ‘authorities’ demanding ID be shown to do the simplest of tasks. It was bad enough with covid passports, but if that was done with ID cards, we probably still be having to scan ID cards to do simple, everyday tasks.

 

[barringtoncem]

Going off topic don't most companies have staff id cards with your picture on which is also used to access areas of the building where you are permitted to do so as well facial recognition for clocking on and off

 

[DarloRich]

People also have very short memories. Just think what could’ve happened if we’d had compulsory ID cards during covid lockdowns with ‘authorities’ demanding ID be shown to do the simplest of tasks.

How is that different to being stopped by the police now and being asked to provide ID evidence?

If you make it compulsory to carry ID cards then what is the penalty if you’re found not to be in possession of yours?

You get a fine unless you provide evidence otherwise. As I say above you could get a "producer" like you used to with your driving license.

 

[Hadders]

Going off topic don't most companies have staff id cards with your picture on which is also used to access areas of the building where you are permitted to do so as well facial recognition for clocking on and off

They do. But that data is only accessible to your employer, not the government.

A few years back I was responsible for managing the access control system for a large company. You wouldn’t believe some of the requests I got for details of when someone had entered or exited a site. Many of the requests were refused because the system was for security purposes and the prevention of crime, not to monitor attendance, break times, number of cigarette breaks etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

How is that different to being stopped by the police now and being asked to provide ID evidence?

There is no legal requirement to carry ID. The police can ask for it but you cannot be prosecuted for not carrying it.

You must, of course, give your details if required to do so by the police. And it is a criminal offence not to do so.

 

[stadler]

Looking in to it i believe Mainland Europe and the Western World has nine countries without any form of national ID cards:

• Andorra

• Australia

• Canada

• Denmark

• Ireland

• New Zealand

• Russia

• United Kingdom

• United States Of America

ID cards are much more widespread that i thought.

It is estimated around 95% to 99% of adults in Russia have a passport. You need a passport in Russia to do anything. So for them ID cards are not required as everyone has a passport and people just use their passport for everything.

Andorra is in a very similar situation to the UK in that they have no alternative ID cards available other than driving licences.

Ireland and the USA both have a passport card which is kind of the equivalent to an ID card that most other countries have. The passport card in Ireland only allows you to travel to Schengen countries. The passport card in the USA only allows you to travel to Canada and a couple Caribbean countries. But only citizens of Ireland or the USA are eligible for one.

Canada and the USA both issue ID cards through their driver licence and motor vehicle agencies in most of their states and provinces. These are basically in the format of driving licences but say "identification card" rather than "driving licence" on them. I think any resident can apply for these.

Denmark has ID cards issued through each of their municipalities. This is not a national ID card as each municipality is responsible and has their own design and format. Also i do not believe Faroe Islands or Greenland have any so only Mainland Denmark municipalities issue them. They are not valid for international travel. Any resident can apply for one.

Australia has "Proof Of Age" cards which are available through the government of each state and territory. They can be used as ID cards. These are normally issued by their driver licence and motor vehicle agencies like Canada and the USA does.

New Zealand has a "Kiwi Access Card" which is issued by a private company. Any resident can apply for one. I think it is kind of similar to our "Citizen Card" in the UK in that it is issued by a private company and not really an official ID card and not everyone will recognise or accept it.

So really only four countries in Mainland Europe and the Western World exist without any official ID cards:

• Andorra

• New Zealand

• Russia

• United Kingdom

Albania, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Kosovo, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, all appear to have national ID cards. However i think even all of these let you chose between a passport or an ID card. Even in the countries with mandatory ID you can still chose to have a passport instead of an ID card.

I do not think that any country actually exists in Mainland Europe or the Western World where you have to have an ID card and a passport is not an accepted alternative to having an ID card.

 

[styles]

I think that is a fair point but our medical records or our tax data or our police records seem to be held with a decent level of confidence

Are they?

Staff at Princess Kate's hospital have been accused of accessing her health records without authority. An NHS contracted lab in London was hacked just a few weeks ago with patient data stolen and exposed online. In March or April, forget which, a patient appointment booking system was shown to have a serious flaw which had been present for 6 years which may have been used to obtain patient data (no evidence to suggest it actually was exploited).

100k personal income tax users have had their accounts broken into through phishing attacks in the past few months (yes, the provider is responsible for preventing phishing attacks as well as the user). They then failed to inform Parliament of this (including the £50m loss it incurred) for over a year until they were summoned to a Parliamentary committee and even then they didn't notify the committee in advance, but actually in the committee meeting itself.

7 Met Police officers were disciplined (ranging from final written warnings to dismissals) for accessing records on the Sarah Everard case.

When I moved GP practices recently they actually lost some of my medical records. Both paper and digital copies. Like physically lost them.

Regardless of my moral views on mandatory ID cards, I have no confidence in UK establishments holding my data securely.

 

[martin butler]

How is that different to being stopped by the police now and being asked to provide ID evidence?

You get a fine unless you provide evidence otherwise. As I say above you could get a "producer" like you used to with your driving license.

I would say, you get a producer, say 72 hours, that has a list of acceptable forms of ID, the police could record a likeness of you, on site, and this can be checked against the likeness of the ID card on the database, no need for heavy handedness, or fines, If you don't, then clearly thats another matter, same as is done already, Lts say for example that inteligence has flagged you for using someone elses id, you get stopped, claim you have it back home, the police give you a 72 hour producer, and take your picture, this can then be downloaded to the police database, which can then compare the name given, against the ID database, it compares likenesses, and flags it as not a likeness, but finds your real identity,
and your wanted for several crimes,

 

[stadler]

Going off topic don't most companies have staff id cards with your picture on which is also used to access areas of the building where you are permitted to do so as well facial recognition for clocking on and off

I think that is only very large major companies which is a very small minority. It is not a common thing. I have never come across it anywhere that i have worked. I think it is mostly just for people who work for big corporations in large office buildings and large factories.

 

[DarloRich]

Are they?

Staff at Princess Kate's hospital have been accused of accessing her health records without authority. An NHS contracted lab in London was hacked just a few weeks ago with patient data stolen and exposed online. In March or April, forget which, a patient appointment booking system was shown to have a serious flaw which had been present for 6 years which may have been used to obtain patient data (no evidence to suggest it actually was exploited).

100k personal income tax users have had their accounts broken into through phishing attacks in the past few months (yes, the provider is responsible for preventing phishing attacks as well as the user). They then failed to inform Parliament of this (including the £50m loss it incurred) for over a year until they were summoned to a Parliamentary committee and even then they didn't notify the committee in advance, but actually in the committee meeting itself.

7 Met Police officers were disciplined (ranging from final written warnings to dismissals) for accessing records on the Sarah Everard case.

When I moved GP practices recently they actually lost some of my medical records. Both paper and digital copies. Like physically lost them.

Regardless of my moral views on mandatory ID cards, I have no confidence in UK establishments holding my data securely.

The human is always the weakest link in the system. You cant stop someone indulging in a bit of data smuggling for reward, doing something stupid or having "password" as a password to a secure system sadly!

I think it is mostly just for people who work for big corporations in large office buildings and large factories.

Almost everywhere i go these days has some form of sign in system which produces a visitors ID card. I don't think facial recognition is used often mind!

 

[brad465]

Perhaps it could be non-mandatory for UK residents but mandatory for any immigrant coming into the UK. One of the big advantages of ID cards is they can be used to track immigration status: if someone overstays their visa term, the card/record would instantly flag it and Border Force could find them immediately. You could also have employers be required to ask for ID cards for migrant workers, and if they are found to be employing anyone without an ID card that must have one, they are fined a sizeable portion of their running costs, and for serious/repeat offences shut down with the executive(s) jailed.

This would be the best compromise I can think of where ID cards have beneficial use while also convincing the population who want tougher immigration policy that something is being done about it. I still think though a full national ID card scheme would be beneficial if it streamlines all other forms of ID into one, plus settles the whole voter ID debate.

 

[bahnause]

We need to distinguish between the ID itself and the protection of personal data. In my view, this is the great advantage of a state-controlled ID. As we are no longer living in the 19th century, the only option is an electronic ID anyway. This means that access can already be regulated at a technical level. The user keeps the e-ID in an electronic wallet and thus gains control over their own data. They decide to whom they want to present the e-ID. The verifier does not visually check the security features, but compares the issuer's signature with that in the basic and trust registers to establish trust in the data. The issuer has no knowledge of where the e-ID is used. No more ‘private’ databases that store data uncontrolled for years. For a simple age check, a simple ‘YES’ or ‘NO’ is sufficient as an answer from the database, neither name nor address is relevant for the enquirer (e.g. the booze shop around the corner). There is also the option of signing electronic documents.

In my view, the risk of misuse of today's de facto uncontrolled systems such as company ID cards, membership cards, passport copies and so on is many times higher than with a system in which access to data records is already restricted as required.

 

[66701GBRF]

You must, of course, give your details if required to do so by the police. And it is a criminal offence not to do so.

Not always.

 

[sor]

Are they?

Staff at Princess Kate's hospital have been accused of accessing her health records without authority. An NHS contracted lab in London was hacked just a few weeks ago with patient data stolen and exposed online. In March or April, forget which, a patient appointment booking system was shown to have a serious flaw which had been present for 6 years which may have been used to obtain patient data (no evidence to suggest it actually was exploited).

Those are private businesses though. I would assume Kate follows royal practice in that she wasn't using the local NHS oncology service.

A better example might be that some staff at Ipswich hospital received disciplinary action for trying to look at Ed Sheeran's medical records, but that shows the system seems to have adequate controls.

Patient booking systems are a fragmented mess run by random middlemen. It would probably be better if the NHS ran it themselves and had proper GCHQ/infosec oversight.

100k personal income tax users have had their accounts broken into through phishing attacks in the past few months (yes, the provider is responsible for preventing phishing attacks as well as the user). They then failed to inform Parliament of this (including the £50m loss it incurred) for over a year until they were summoned to a Parliamentary committee and even then they didn't notify the committee in advance, but actually in the committee meeting itself.

That would probably be an advantage to having a proper ID card system as it could provide a form of two factor authentication. It would certainly reduce that kind of fraud.

When I moved GP practices recently they actually lost some of my medical records. Both paper and digital copies. Like physically lost them.

That again has more to do with the regional/fragmented nature of the NHS than anything else.

Perhaps it could be non-mandatory for UK residents but mandatory for any immigrant coming into the UK. One of the big advantages of ID cards is they can be used to track immigration status: if someone overstays their visa term, the card/record would instantly flag it and Border Force could find them immediately. You could also have employers be required to ask for ID cards for migrant workers, and if they are found to be employing anyone without an ID card that must have one, they are fined a sizeable portion of their running costs, and for serious/repeat offences shut down with the executive(s) jailed.

This would be the best compromise I can think of where ID cards have beneficial use while also convincing the population who want tougher immigration policy that something is being done about it. I still think though a full national ID card scheme would be beneficial if it streamlines all other forms of ID into one, plus settles the whole voter ID debate.

I believe that was the point of the biometric residence permit (the close cousin to blair's ID card scheme), which was issued to any non-EU immigrant, though I gather they've stopped issuing them now.

Though as Brexit showed, there are other ways in which we are deficient eg there is no requirement to register your residency with the local police or other authorities in the way many European countries do. We persist in misusing other data for that, such as the electoral regrister (which won't contain anyone who isn't eligible to vote anyway)

 

[styles]

The human is always the weakest link in the system. You cant stop someone indulging in a bit of data smuggling for reward, doing something stupid or having "password" as a password to a secure system sadly!

Indeed, but it is part of an information security management system to consider and put effective controls in place for human risk factors, not just technological.

Also our MPs re effectively the face of public bodies even in the apolitical sphere, so until trust in politics and government is restored, I can't imagine many of those against mandatory ID cards being persuaded.

I'm sure a majority of the population would support them now though if asked. Particularly with concerns around crime and immigration.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, but it is part of an information security management system to consider and put effective controls in place for human risk factors, not just technological.

I'm sure a majority of the population would support them now though if asked. Particularly with concerns around crime and immigration

agreed x 2!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

You must, of course, give your details if required to do so by the police. And it is a criminal offence not to do so.

but how would that be any different to carrying an ID card? I don't get the argument. Sorry. It makes no sense.

 

[styles]

but how would that be any different to carrying an ID card? I don't get the argument. Sorry. It makes no sense.

Actually on this point there is potentially an argument against ID cards. The police routinely ask people for their personal details when they have no power to demand it. Only have to watch those annoying 'auditors' to realise how common it is for police to default to identifying people even when they have no reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed. They rely on people not knowing that they don't have to identify themselves to a police officer merely because they were asked to. If mandatory ID carrying is introduced and they search somebody then they're going to be able to identify them even when they had no power to demand the information.

That said, it depends whether people would support a change in the legislation to allow police to demand producing ID regardless of the circumstances. I suspect a lot of stop and search opponents would oppose such a change, but there would be plenty of people who say nothing to hide nothing to fear.

 

[spyinthesky]

I think that the basic idea of having a universal ID is ok but there are so many flaws in such a card which shouldn’t be mandatory to carry, however if requested to gain certain access or services then it would be just the same as a student providing ID at a bar or club.
The more basic the card is the easier it is to forge and the more security features it has becomes a very expensive to administer.
The criminals will always find a way around it.
Having held numerous ID cards with varying amounts of security features, the one most trusted had no security features at all.

 

[DarloRich]

They rely on people not knowing that they don't have to identify themselves to a police officer merely because they were asked to. If mandatory ID carrying is introduced and they search somebody then they're going to be able to identify them even when they had no power to demand the information.

Correct - it is, however, often easier just to comply, be polite and go about your business. I get that for people who haven't had dealings with the police this seems like a big thing but it really isn't worth the bother. You see people get so uppity about this kind of thing and it just makes the situation worse.

but there would be plenty of people who say nothing to hide nothing to fear.

Exactly! I have been stopped by the police many, many, many times for all manner of trivial things most often just wanting to go to a football match! Just be polite and get things over with. Presenting ID helps achieve that aim and I don't understand how doing that by means of an ID card differs from doing that by means of my driving licence.

Step away form the conspiracy and look at reality

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

If mandatory ID carrying is introduced and they search somebody then they're going to be able to identify them even when they had no power to demand the information.

I don't get the issue? How does identifying yourself to a police officer create such angst?

 

[Harpo]

there would be plenty of people who say nothing to hide nothing to fear.

Exactly. I fully support mandatory carrying of ID too. I’d be very relaxed if lack of ID were an arrestable offence.

Beyond the basic ID arguments, a UK citizen card could have many further uses. For example, free-to-visit museums could restore entry charges for non-holders, the NHS could cease to be free-to-use for non holders, etc.. I’m sure there are many other areas where taxpayer expenditure can be kept ‘in-house’.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m absolutely against a requirement to carry mandatory ID when I’m outside. If I wanted to live in a surveillance state I’d move to China. The basis of Western civilisation is supposed to be based on freedom and privacy, and universal civil rights. If I walk into town and witness a crime, I don’t want to be worried about being picked up as a suspect by the police on the sole basis that I’ve forgotten to bring my ID. Just look at what’s been happening to Hispanic-appearance people in the US recently - undoubtedly an overstretched and politically pressured UK police would be prone to make ‘assumptions’ and end up committing gross errors in a society where ID card = proof, no ID = suspicious.

 

[stadler]

Why should you have to identify yourself if you have done nothing wrong. It should be innocent until proven guilty and not guilty until proven innocent. Many people like privacy. Many people do not want to give their details to police or the government. It does not mean that they have something to hide but just means that they like their privacy. Do you really want to live in a country where police just demand ID for no reason. You can go live in North Korea or some third world dictatorship if you want that. The police should never be able to just demand ID from you.

 

[Harpo]

Do you really want to live in a country where police just demand ID for no reason.

A somewhat hysterical conflation. I’d expect there to be safeguards and conditions to be met.

 

[lachlan]

Introducing a form of easy to carry, free or cheap to obtain, widely recognised ID so non-drivers can don't have to get a passport and carry this around could be done without requiring everyone to carry it at all times.

It ideally needs to be free, or we need to get rid of voter ID.

 

[The exile]

So really only four countries in Mainland Europe and the Western World exist without any official ID cards:

• Andorra

• New Zealand

• Russia

• United Kingdom

And if those, presumably Andorra has pretty universal ID coverage de facto if not de jure since you’d need something to be able to leave the Principality (although the chances of actually requiring it on a short hop over to France or Spain are of course pretty minimal).

 

[signed]

I can see a National ID Card be implemented with the rise of digital signature (with eIDAS and other). Especially if that becomes the mainstream way to sign official documents in Europe.

 

[stadler]

Introducing a form of easy to carry, free or cheap to obtain, widely recognised ID so non-drivers can don't have to get a passport and carry this around could be done without requiring everyone to carry it at all times.

It ideally needs to be free, or we need to get rid of voter ID.

That could simply be done by making passports free of charge. That would be the simplest and cheapest and least controversial way to do it. Creating another free ID card will cost too much. If we made passports free of charge than any UK citizen would have easy access to an official recognised ID document. For anyone who is a permanent resident but not a UK citizen we could look in to reimbursing the cost of their passport once every ten years.

 

[signed]

That could simply be done by making passports free of charge. That would be the simplest and cheapest and least controversial way to do it. Creating another free ID card will cost too much. If we made passports free of charge than any UK citizen would have easy access to an official recognised ID document. For anyone who is a permanent resident but not a UK citizen we could look in to reimbursing the cost of their passport once every ten years.

A passport is a lot more expensive to make than a plastic card, even if that plastic card is RFID. Plus it's incredibly bulky to carry compared to a ID1 (Credit Card) ID card

 

[bahnause]

I’m absolutely against a requirement to carry mandatory ID when I’m outside. If I wanted to live in a surveillance state I’d move to China. The basis of Western civilisation is supposed to be based on freedom and privacy, and universal civil rights.

Why China? Is Spain, Greece, the Netherlands or Austria not a part of the western civilisation? If there is a case for the police to ID you and the law allows for it (as a suspect or a witness), it really doesn't matter if you are carrying your ID card or not. Being able to produce proper ID will just save time. The ID is not the problem here...