Yes indeed i think that is the case. Looking online i found one source which states that 96% of adult Andorra citizens have a passport. Not really surprising as the country is so small and they have no ID card and people must travel abroad a lot. Andorra also has an extremely large percentage of foreign residents and presumably all of those people have their foreign passport or foreign ID card. Andorra is one of the few countries in the world with more foreign citizens than their own citizens. Recent statistics show around 76% of people who live in Andorra are foreign citizens.
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Should we have a universal ID card?
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The French gov stating that the new ID card costs 5€ to make
Le véritable prix du passeport biométrique - Sénat
Back in 2010, a French passport required 14.36€ to make. I would assume it to be
And that's considering that the French passport is one of the simplest on the planet
But there will also be lots of costs to set up an ID card system. We currently issue passports in the UK and have an entire Passport Office set up to issue those so issuing more is very simple. The only cost would be providing passports free of charge. Where as setting up an ID card system would bring in lots of extra costs and complexity. France has already had both ID cards and passports for decades where as the UK has not. I also reckon we could significantly lower the costs of passports by doing it in house rather than contracting it out to passport printing companies.The French gov stating that the new ID card costs 5€ to make
Le véritable prix du passeport biométrique - Sénat
www.senat.fr
Back in 2010, a French passport required 14.36€ to make. I would assume it to be
And that's considering that the French passport is one of the simplest on the planet
The UK has had a card drivers license since the 2000s, BRPs are still printed (not for long, yes but still).
Modifying the design of the BRPs and continuing the process isn't going to cost that much in relative terms, especially when the alternative would just drop the production lines once evisas are set.
The standard for EU ID cards is already there, so very little actual research will be needed. With the added benefit of a possibility with UK ID cards working under EES.
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jon81uk
Member
What is different about China compared to the 15 EU countries that also mandate ID? Spain, Belgium, Germany and many others are part of western civilisation aren't they?
you can't legally take out a provisional license if you're not medically able to drive
This is true, but nothing to stop the government changing it and writing on the card "non functional" or similar. Passports can't be issued to everyone either but the point was driving licences are a lot cheaper.
ArranArchie
Member
I don't support the idea of being obligated to carry an ID at all times - what would be the benefit of such a thing? I feel it'd create new crimes when they don't need to exist.
I do like the idea of a universally available ID card, something like a passport card or no-entitlements driving licence like they do in some USA states. The closest thing we have to this right now are PASS hologram cards, like the CitizenCard, and Yoti as digital ID. I think we need something to replace the need for bank statements as proof of address, etc.
It would be good if they could do something about the countersignatory rules they have though. I really struggled to find somebody professional enough to sign my passport application, and if I needed one today I'd probably fail. As working class bloke I don't really rub shoulders with the kinds of people they want to sign these documents.
I do like the idea of a universally available ID card, something like a passport card or no-entitlements driving licence like they do in some USA states. The closest thing we have to this right now are PASS hologram cards, like the CitizenCard, and Yoti as digital ID. I think we need something to replace the need for bank statements as proof of address, etc.
It would be good if they could do something about the countersignatory rules they have though. I really struggled to find somebody professional enough to sign my passport application, and if I needed one today I'd probably fail. As working class bloke I don't really rub shoulders with the kinds of people they want to sign these documents.
FinsburyPark
Member
I want for us to Rejoin the EU. Its likely the EU will ask for ID cards to be a thing, and they will likely offer no opt outs this time.
Also if it carries the benefit of having the chip that works at E Passport gates in the EU (post EES), then this can be a benefit as some mainland EU countries require you to have ID on you at all times while outside. Saves the hassle and stress of having to take your passport and possibly loosing it. Also a credit card sized card is easier to carry.
I have an EU passport of a country that mandates ID cards, so I have no objections, but i do believe there should be genuine benefits. More carrot than stick or at least equal amounts of carrot and stick.
Also if it carries the benefit of having the chip that works at E Passport gates in the EU (post EES), then this can be a benefit as some mainland EU countries require you to have ID on you at all times while outside. Saves the hassle and stress of having to take your passport and possibly loosing it. Also a credit card sized card is easier to carry.
I have an EU passport of a country that mandates ID cards, so I have no objections, but i do believe there should be genuine benefits. More carrot than stick or at least equal amounts of carrot and stick.
The poster I was replying to was suggesting that we have full tracking and requirements to carry them.
I feel that this is going to be a common stumbling block in this discussion, as different posters are going to be inconsistent in whether they mean "The existence of a card to prove ID", "mandatory carrying of ID cards" or "ID card tracking".
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Exactly which problems in society do you think this would solve?
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
First 2 I agree with because if you have on you may as well have the other - third is one easily done via your mobile phone!
There is a difference between having an ID card to prove you are who you say you are when challenged, and having ID card to gain access to services etc. I’ve been stopped by the Police when driving a few times over the decades and in all the cases except the recent one I’ve had to take my (paper) licence and car docs to a Police station where someone glances at them and says thanks. The most recent time they simply checked on their phone that my name and car reg matched my home and that was it. All of these were routine things and caused no issues at all. None of that except the recent one required any level of IT and the recent one only required access to information already available (DVLA and such).
Where it becomes an IT thing - a backend database, a network requirement etc - coupled to e.g. access to a service then what happens when said database and/or network is unavailable? Where is the database - Palantir / US? Who has access to it (knowingly or secretly) and for what purposes? How secure is the data? Any of those would worry me and, after a lifetime in IT I would not trust any government, public or private body to actually keep it secure and in operation 24/7.
But they are coming bit by bit. Look at voting. You now need proof and I only have a paper driving licence and a passport, the latter costing a bunch and I am not walking around with it just to vote. Yes they offer free ID but I don’t want yet another thing so I do postal voting where I need no proof other than a signature and a letterbox.
Of course I can see the benefit and yes other countries have them. I’ve not studied how cards are used in other countries or what advantages they give to people. And maybe I am tarnished by simply never having to have one and am resistant to change. I stand ready to have my mind changed but I simply won’t trust our masters form actually producing a reliable, functional and secure system.
(In all my trips to China, HK and such the only time other than immigration I have needed to show ID was for access to trains in China)
Where it becomes an IT thing - a backend database, a network requirement etc - coupled to e.g. access to a service then what happens when said database and/or network is unavailable? Where is the database - Palantir / US? Who has access to it (knowingly or secretly) and for what purposes? How secure is the data? Any of those would worry me and, after a lifetime in IT I would not trust any government, public or private body to actually keep it secure and in operation 24/7.
But they are coming bit by bit. Look at voting. You now need proof and I only have a paper driving licence and a passport, the latter costing a bunch and I am not walking around with it just to vote. Yes they offer free ID but I don’t want yet another thing so I do postal voting where I need no proof other than a signature and a letterbox.
Of course I can see the benefit and yes other countries have them. I’ve not studied how cards are used in other countries or what advantages they give to people. And maybe I am tarnished by simply never having to have one and am resistant to change. I stand ready to have my mind changed but I simply won’t trust our masters form actually producing a reliable, functional and secure system.
(In all my trips to China, HK and such the only time other than immigration I have needed to show ID was for access to trains in China)
The UK has an ID card system - it's called BRPs.
As @signed says, eIDAS exists and is widespread. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Driving licences and passports convey different entitlements and are issued in different circumstances; they currently can be used as a proxy for identity but are not issuable to everyone and do not provide the same functionality that eIDAS issued documentation does.
On what basis do you "reckon" that? How much experience do you have with HMPO and the contracts awarded to Gemalto, Sopra Steria, Kainos and others to deliver that?
Agreed.
I imagine, if such a scheme existed, many people would carry their ID document around most of the time anyway for convenience.
I also agree.
We now have another form of ID, issued by local authorities to enable people without photo ID to vote.
Those concerned about cost might consider the cost of administrating all these different ID schemes, manufacturing redundant ID and the cost to public and private sector who have to conduct a variety of complex and extensive document verification & KYC (know your customer) checks.
(To be clear, this is solely my personal opinion)
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While Russia does not have a national ID card, it has a system of 'internal passports' (introduced in Tsarist times, mandatory from Soviet times), serving the same purposes (and more), as an ID card, with a seperate system of passports for international travel.
That is what they do in the USA. A friend of mine is very proud of his US driving licence with "Not a licence to drive" stamped across it
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Is it possible to hold an opinion that is not persona
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Call it a drivers license if you want. If it means I can hire a scooter/ebike then that's even better (why do you need a drivers license to hire an ebike in Bristol??)
dangie
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Wilts Wanderer
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I think everyone should be microchipped
I think everyone on this forum should be microchipped
I think everyone on this forum should be required to wear Morris dancer bells so people can hear them coming.I think everyone on this forum should be microchipped
Is it the same people doing the ebike and escooter hiring? Until there's legislation specifically designating escooters as something else, they're still classed as motor vehicles hence the requirement for the licence.
E-scooters are category Q vehicles.
You could give every licence holder category Q quite easily, unless you are really concerned about disqualified drivers riding trial scheme e-scooters.
Of course the only sensible decision right now is for e-scooters to be classified the same as e-bikes, which are not licensable. It's frankly ridiculous to keep these 'trial' schemes going for so many years.
Santander hire bicycles do not require a driving licence.
E-scooters trial scooters require a driving licence with category Q, which all UK provisional and full licences include.
It does technically mean that people banned from driving can't ride trial scheme e-scooters but I'd hardly spend time worrying about that.
So they've probably decided to make their life easier and just demand a driving licence from everyone. Rather than having two different classes of user, one that has a licence and can hire a scooter and one that can't. Whereas Santander are just doing ebikes so don't have that problem.
As well as our tags??I think everyone on this forum should be microchipped
Cloud Strife
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Having an ID card makes life so much easier on so many levels. For example, I have my Polish ID card on my phone, and I can do almost everything with it with the exception of crossing national borders. It's not obligatory to carry ID on a daily basis, but citizens even have the ability to verify someone else's identity using our mObywatel app. I bumped into some poor bloke a couple of years ago, and with mObywatel, I could show him everything - my identity, my driving licence, my car insurance.
What's useful and handy is that these things are also available to the police. If you're stopped for speeding, we have no such thing as a "producer", you just give your personal number (like an NHS number) and the police can pull up everything - your photo, name, address, everything.
Likewise, if I want to open a bank account, deal with some company administration stuff or even just pick up a letter, the ID card (or mobile ID) is more than sufficient. Things like utility bills are unheard of here, and both my British and Polish passports stay firmly locked in a drawer at home because they're simply not needed.
Even when I went to apply for my Polish passport, all I had to do was show my physical ID card and give them one photo. The rest was all done electronically, no need for paper forms, and I had to sign my name on a tablet after confirming the data they held on me. I actually saw a mock-up of the passport information page, so I could verify that my name was correct and so on. Compare this to the nonsense of sending birth certificates and so on!
The critical thing is that it's not mandatory to *carry* the ID.
On the contrary! Andorra isn't part of Schengen, and there are full border controls between Andorra and the neighbouring countries. In practice, France focuses more on identity controls while Spain focuses more on customs controls, but it's not abnormal for both countries to ask for ID there. It's actually quite a problematic situation, because anyone visiting Andorra with a Schengen visa needs a double or multiple-entry Schengen visa. There's also a problem at the moment caused by the fact that Andorran residence permits are not valid for entry into Schengen, so someone in Andorra who isn't legally able to travel to Schengen countries is effectively stuck there. In practice, what happens is that if you need a visa for Schengen, then you have to get a long term visa for Spain/France and then get new ones on the basis of requiring it to leave Andorra.
Andorra generally only does random identity checks in comparison, and they don't require visas from anyone. This situation has caught out quite a few people, as for instance, Brits need to get stamped out of Spain/France and then stamped back in if they visit Andorra.
But going back to the ID issue: so many things in the UK are needlessly complicated because of the lack of ID cards. Things like renting a flat: here, again, it's standard to just show your ID card. No need for anything else, the ID card (and the ID card number) is more than enough to verify everything about you. Things like providing utility bills are just absolutely unheard of, you just need to know how the ID looks and it's more than enough.
What's useful and handy is that these things are also available to the police. If you're stopped for speeding, we have no such thing as a "producer", you just give your personal number (like an NHS number) and the police can pull up everything - your photo, name, address, everything.
Likewise, if I want to open a bank account, deal with some company administration stuff or even just pick up a letter, the ID card (or mobile ID) is more than sufficient. Things like utility bills are unheard of here, and both my British and Polish passports stay firmly locked in a drawer at home because they're simply not needed.
Even when I went to apply for my Polish passport, all I had to do was show my physical ID card and give them one photo. The rest was all done electronically, no need for paper forms, and I had to sign my name on a tablet after confirming the data they held on me. I actually saw a mock-up of the passport information page, so I could verify that my name was correct and so on. Compare this to the nonsense of sending birth certificates and so on!
The critical thing is that it's not mandatory to *carry* the ID.
On the contrary! Andorra isn't part of Schengen, and there are full border controls between Andorra and the neighbouring countries. In practice, France focuses more on identity controls while Spain focuses more on customs controls, but it's not abnormal for both countries to ask for ID there. It's actually quite a problematic situation, because anyone visiting Andorra with a Schengen visa needs a double or multiple-entry Schengen visa. There's also a problem at the moment caused by the fact that Andorran residence permits are not valid for entry into Schengen, so someone in Andorra who isn't legally able to travel to Schengen countries is effectively stuck there. In practice, what happens is that if you need a visa for Schengen, then you have to get a long term visa for Spain/France and then get new ones on the basis of requiring it to leave Andorra.
Andorra generally only does random identity checks in comparison, and they don't require visas from anyone. This situation has caught out quite a few people, as for instance, Brits need to get stamped out of Spain/France and then stamped back in if they visit Andorra.
But going back to the ID issue: so many things in the UK are needlessly complicated because of the lack of ID cards. Things like renting a flat: here, again, it's standard to just show your ID card. No need for anything else, the ID card (and the ID card number) is more than enough to verify everything about you. Things like providing utility bills are just absolutely unheard of, you just need to know how the ID looks and it's more than enough.
Andorra is part of the Schengen in everything but name. I have been four times and crossed both the French and Spanish borders and never been stopped but the Andorran or French or Spanish officers. They have officers at the border points (and you can optionally stop if you want to get your Schengen entry and exit stamps from the French and Spanish border guards) but i have never seen them stop anyone. Everyone just drives straight through. Monaco and San Marino are the same.
A EU standard format drivers license is not valid as ID in most EU countries because it doesn't state place of birth and nationality. I think it's different in UK law no?
I don't understand why nobody in Europe thought that back in 2013 when the new card DLs got introduced, having a different card for ID and Driving was a good idea.
Sure it's either to seize for offenders, but with the databases you don't really need to rely on that. Cheaper for everyone, renew your ID card, renew your license. If you aren't a citizen then you get a fat NON VALIDA PER L'ESPATRIO/NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL like in Italy, and same thing if you don't drive.
I am of the opinion that a Driver's licence should be an ID, it's also much less damaging if you loose it.
It is also worth mentioning that a driving licence is only really considered ID if you have that modern new style card one. I think only new drivers have the card sized ones with the photo. My driving licence is just a sheet of paper without any photo. It has my full name and address and categories i am entitled to drive but no way to confirm it is me. It is no more of an ID than a utility bill or council tax bill. So for many people in the UK who drive a passport is still the only full ID available to them.
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