Should we have a universal ID card?

[Vexed]

Moderator note: Split from

Where are the ticket inspectors?

Hi all, When I started commuting regularly to university and later to my various jobs over the years in London my parents would always warn me about ticket inspectors on the trains. Occasionally I've heard stories of friends of friends who have been caught out by an inspector while traveling...

www.railforums.co.uk

Like with universal ID I can continue to dream...

 

[crablab]

Like with universal ID I can continue to dream...

Personally, I don't really buy the arguments against mandatory national ID. I'm well aware of the No2ID campaign.

There was a big uproar in the late 2000s when the then Labour government tried to introduce it. The scheme ended up becoming limited to a small trial with a wider rollout of the Biometric Residency Permit (BRP).

Estonia has had proper electronic ID for the last 20 years with numerous benefits in simplifying access to public services. It's just a private key (well, a couple) on a smartcard which you "sign" challenges with to prove identity.

The UK has "distributed identity" and (as a service provider) you build up 'trust' by requesting enough documentation that you're confident someone is who they say they are. It's imperfect and can make it becomes very difficult to access services if you're lacking certain types of documentation. I do not see why this is "better" than a national ID card which everyone is entitled to and expected to possess.

Mandatory ID doesn't solve everything, but it levels the playing field in a world where you now need to prove identity to open a bank account, vote, use the NHS, get a job, rent a house...

 

[Welly]

Who will pay for the cards? The individual or the taxpayers?

 

[Yew]

Mandatory ID doesn't solve everything, but it levels the playing field in a world where you now need to prove identity to open a bank account, vote, use the NHS, get a job, rent a house...

Its worth remembering that having a centralised system for ID cards, and having requirements to make them mandatory are two different things.

 

[sor]

My main complaint about the Blair era system was the database behind it, not the physical card. I'm not opposed to databases in principle (we're already on several) but the idea that it could scope creep into collecting far more data than is necessary to administer the system, eg it was suggested that shops and pubs could have ID card scanners that would record every swipe into the database.

It does feel like we really could do with a proper ID verification system, if nothing else to get rid of the nonsense where a bank statement or a utility bill is somehow an infallible identity document, or this idea that random third parties can middleman interactions with the government (the failed gov.uk verify thing). I like what Belgium has where the ID card is used as part of the authentication process for government websites.

We don't have a culture of mandatory ID, there's already enough of carrot to not need the stick. See how driving licences are de facto photo ID for many, and unlike many countries (including those that profess to be "freer" than ours) it is not mandatory to carry even while driving.

 

[styles]

Who will pay for the cards? The individual or the taxpayers?

It would require some thinking, but I don't see why we couldn't use driving licences. For those ineligible to actually drive (e.g. disqualified), they'd just get a driving licence with no entitlements on it.

Most adults already have one, our systems already support people getting provisional licences from the age of 15, though could be changed to go lower if needed. Presumably we're reasonably content with the security features on our driving licences given how widely they are used for ID purposes.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would require some thinking, but I don't see why we couldn't use driving licences. For those ineligible to actually drive (e.g. disqualified), they'd just get a driving licence with no entitlements on it.

Most adults already have one, our systems already support people getting provisional licences from the age of 15, though could be changed to go lower if needed. Presumably we're reasonably content with the security features on our driving licences given how widely they are used for ID purposes.

It would also make a good YouTube video essay in about 15 years. "Why does *everyone* in the UK have a driving licence?"

 

[styles]

It would also make a good YouTube video essay in about 15 years. "Why does *everyone* in the UK have a driving licence?"

Still probably makes more sense to foreigners than, "Why do British people need a licence to watch TV?"

 

[stadler]

No definitely not. I have never understood the point of ID cards that almost every Mainland European country has. We already have an ID called a passport. Why would you want two separate documents if you can just have one passport. It is just overcomplicating it. If you need an ID then just apply for a passport. No need for two separate things. What i would strongly support is lowering the cost of a passport (and maybe even making passports free for some people) in order to make getting an ID easier.

 

[martin butler]

I would be OK with having to carry an ID card, I would actually go one further, and have it combined into Passport, and driving licence If you have never passed a test, it could just show as 0 entitlement,

How in reality it should be policed, might to some though be a problem, I see no problem, with if you are asked to produce it on the street by a policeman, or other body, and you can't, maybe they can take your picture, and give you a 24 hr, ticket, where by you take your documents to a local police station, and your likeness is automatically checked with an ID database, that confirms who you are, and when you take other forms of ID to a police station, hopefully they verify who you claim to be, and you can be on your way, but if your carrying a false ID, then your arrested, and charged, because the details won't match, and of course, if you are wanted, that will be on the database also, maybe an identity card, could be required to access government buildings, if you need to access services, there could always be a help desk , if you don't have ID because you lost it, but I would imagine 99 per cent would be on line anyway.

 

[lachlan]

No definitely not. I have never understood the point of ID cards that almost every Mainland European country has. We already have an ID called a passport. Why would you want two separate documents if you can just have one passport. It is just overcomplicating it. If you need an ID then just apply for a passport. No need for two separate things. What i would strongly support is lowering the cost of a passport (and maybe even making passports free for some people) in order to make getting an ID easier.

You've identified the why at the end of your post - because passports are costly to replace. They're also relatively bulky.

 

[Yew]

I would be OK with having to carry an ID card, I would actually go one further, and have it combined into Passport, and driving licence If you have never passed a test, it could just show as 0 entitlement,

How in reality it should be policed, might to some though be a problem, I see no problem, with if you are asked to produce it on the street by a policeman, or other body, and you can't, maybe they can take your picture, and give you a 24 hr, ticket, where by you take your documents to a local police station, and your likeness is automatically checked with an ID database, that confirms who you are, and when you take other forms of ID to a police station, hopefully they verify who you claim to be, and you can be on your way, but if your carrying a false ID, then your arrested, and charged, because the details won't match, and of course, if you are wanted, that will be on the database also, maybe an identity card, could be required to access government buildings, if you need to access services, there could always be a help desk , if you don't have ID because you lost it, but I would imagine 99 per cent would be on line anyway.

What exactly do you think requiring everyone to carry ID cards would gain us?

 

[stadler]

You've identified the why at the end of your post - because passports are costly to replace. They're also relatively bulky.

So the solution to that is lowering the cost of passports. Creating a separate ID card is going to be much more expensive than simply making passports cheaper. The simplest way is to make passports much cheaper for all and maybe even free for certain categories of low income people. Some other Mainland European countries charge as little as £20 for a passport. Also i do not find them bulky. It fits in to a large pocket easily. I have used a passport as my sole ID for my entire life and never found it a problem. It is still smaller and easier to carry than those horrid new paper roll train tickets.

 

[Hadders]

The issue for me isn't whether or not there should be an ID card, it is whether or not it should be mandatory to carry it when out in public.

I am absolutely against any proposal that makes it mandatory to carry ID.

 

[styles]

There are plenty of UK residents who are not entitled to a passport, so that wouldn't be feasible, without issuing a passport which doesn't allow the holder to.. pass ports!

They're also objectively bulkier than say a photocard driving licence, which is the size and shape of pretty much every other national ID card in Europe.

Not to mention the wear and tear which would occur, which is fine for going to France, but not when travelling round a lot of Asia.

 

[sor]

No definitely not. I have never understood the point of ID cards that almost every Mainland European country has. We already have an ID called a passport. Why would you want two separate documents if you can just have one passport. It is just overcomplicating it. If you need an ID then just apply for a passport. No need for two separate things. What i would strongly support is lowering the cost of a passport (and maybe even making passports free for some people) in order to make getting an ID easier.

People who are not UK citizens cannot have a UK passport. It is harder for the UK govt to verify the authenticity of a foreign passport.

Passports are expensive and difficult to apply for. A first adult passport requires an interview.

Passports are inconvenient to carry. This is why the driving licence became so popular as a form of photo ID, but that also isn't universally available as you still need to be medically fit to drive & have no disqualifications even if you never intend to actually do so.

An actual identity card resolves these issues and more, eg why can't I generate a share code similar to that of my driving licence when I need to prove my right to work/rent, or to open a bank account. It would also eliminate the concerns around voter ID.

 

[martin butler]

What exactly do you think requiring everyone to carry ID cards would gain us?

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, what would it gain us, Well, Lets say your found unconscious then you can be identified and NOK informed, Lets say your mugged, and your IDcard stolen, then that card could be flagged, and if its used, an alert goes up, and that will make it easier to solve some crimes, lets say, you have to go to somewhere, thats an government building, then, if your carrying your ID and you have an appointment, you should be able to just scan in. what does it gain, security, in an increasingly insecure world.

 

[Hadders]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, what would it gain us, Well, Lets say your found unconscious then you can be identified and NOK informed, Lets say your mugged, and your IDcard stolen, then that card could be flagged, and if its used, an alert goes up, and that will make it easier to solve some crimes, lets say, you have to go to somewhere, thats an government building, then, if your carrying your ID and you have an appointment, you should be able to just scan in. what does it gain, security, in an increasingly insecure world.

And on the flip side your movement is tracked across the country, and logged in a central database, potentially for years. It's bad enough with train companies doing ticket scan data trawls. Just imagine what the big brother society could look like.

While there could be some advantages, is that really what we want? I'm not sure it is.

 

[stadler]

There are plenty of UK residents who are not entitled to a passport, so that wouldn't be feasible, without issuing a passport which doesn't allow the holder to.. pass ports!

They're also objectively bulkier than say a photocard driving licence, which is the size and shape of pretty much every other national ID card in Europe.

Not to mention the wear and tear which would occur, which is fine for going to France, but not when travelling round a lot of Asia.

People who are not UK citizens cannot have a UK passport. It is harder for the UK govt to verify the authenticity of a foreign passport.

Passports are expensive and difficult to apply for. A first adult passport requires an interview.

Passports are inconvenient to carry. This is why the driving licence became so popular as a form of photo ID, but that also isn't universally available as you still need to be medically fit to drive & have no disqualifications even if you never intend to actually do so.

But people who are not UK citizens are still entitled to a passport of whatever country they are a citizen of. Everyone is able to get a passport of some country. They just have to apply at the embassy of their country. Foreign passports are just as good ID in the UK as our passports. I do not buy this argument that passports are inconvenient to carry. They can easily fit in a large pocket or in your bag. I keep mine in a large pocket and have never had a problem.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes! next question.

What exactly do you think requiring everyone to carry ID cards would gain us?

I can think of quite few "reformy" type situations where and ID card would be helpful!

I am absolutely against any proposal that makes it mandatory to carry ID.

Why?

 

[jon81uk]

And on the flip side your movement is tracked across the country, and logged in a central database, potentially for years.

How does having a small picece of plastic in your wallet result in your movement being tracked?

 

[Yew]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear,

I have nothing to hide, but given that we are seeing a lurch towards right-wing authoritarianism giving them tools of oppression does not seem wise.

what would it gain us, Well, Lets say your found unconscious then you can be identified and NOK informed,

The same could be done with a card in your wallet, if that has not been stolen.

Lets say your mugged, and your IDcard stolen, then that card could be flagged, and if its used, an alert goes up,

Who said we were having such an integrated system, that sounds very costly.

and that will make it easier to solve some crimes,

And will the cost of the system you are proposing justify that gain?

lets say, you have to go to somewhere, thats an government building, then, if your carrying your ID and you have an appointment, you should be able to just scan in.

So now this ID card, is going to provide access controls to government buildings? How much will that cost to integrate?

what does it gain, security, in an increasingly insecure world.

Security for whom?

 

[styles]

But people who are not UK citizens are still entitled to a passport of whatever country they are a citizen of. Everyone is able to get a passport of some country. They just have to apply at the embassy if their country. Foreign passports are just as good ID in the UK as our passports. I do not buy this argument that passports are inconvenient to carry. They can easily fit in a large pocket or in your bag. I keep mine in a large pocket and have never had a problem.

You don't need to continue to hold an overseas passport while being a non-British resident. If we are to mandate people carry ID, it should be provided, except perhaps a fee for replacements, but even then if we want it to be mandatory we have to account for people not having the money to replace it. Or indeed, discouraging people from replacing it by attaching a cost to it.

And that's great that you always have a large pocket.

My partner's jeans have pockets, but they do not fit a passport in them. In fact she's normally raging that women's clothing often doesn't have any pockets at all.

Then let's say you go on a run. Assuming you have shorts or a shirt with a big enough pocket for a passport, they are not designed to get wet, so when you seat it's going to deteriorate.

I've had questionable looks at my passport in Asia for even the most minor of damage, without the inevitable wear and tear which would come from me carrying it in my pocket as do outdoor work.

It is no coincidence that almost all countries which have a compulsory ID scheme don't simply use passports...

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Anything that is linked to the Govt and Civil Service to monitor and coerce us could be open to abuse. Whilst I can see some benefits from such a card, especially in the fight against welfare fraud, tax evasion etc, we don't have to look far, even on the pages of this forum, to see views that if replicated by Civil Servants or Govt, could restrict our freedoms.
Maybe I've gone full on conspiracy theorist, but I don't trust our governing class any further than I could throw them, and certainly not since the 1990's.
I'd need a lot of convincing that the necessary safeguards were in place to prevent abuses in personal freedom.

 

[Yew]

While there could be some advantages, is that really what we want? I'm not sure it is.

Indeed, that might be fine with a moderate, sensible government, but could you imagine if a more extremist one got in. A hardline party could use such a system to persecute political opponents, quite frankly, this seems more like a Black Mirror episode or something from the CCP.

 

[DarloRich]

Anything that is linked to the Govt and Civil Service to monitor and coerce us could be open to abuse.

how are "they" going to "monitor and coerce" you by carrying an ID card? Could you explain? Do you own a mobile phone? If so "they" can very easily "monitor" you now.

A hardline party could use such a system to persecute political opponents, quite frankly, this seems more like a Black Mirror episode or something from the CCP.

How does it work in say, Belgium, where all people over 12 have ID cards? Have they fallen victim to this authoritarian conspiracy?

 

[sor]

It is no coincidence that almost all countries which have a compulsory ID scheme don't simply use passports...

and indeed some of those that don't. Denmark has a regionally-issued ID card which doesn't quite fit the mould (I believe it isn't valid for intra-EU travel for example, nor would it be useful to travel to the UK for Danish citizens with settled status) though the Danish government accepts it for ID purposes. Ireland and the US optionally issue passport cards but again those are for citizens only.

 

[crablab]

eg it was suggested that shops and pubs could have ID card scanners that would record every swipe into the database.

This happened anyway. Many bars and clubs will now require you to present photo ID on entry which they scan and record. They maintain a list of who's entered (in case of an incident later on) and a banned list (which I believe is sometimes shared between venues).

I'm not saying I agree with that, but it's happening anyway irrespective of photo ID.

See also shops using facial recognition to profile shoplifters, again shared between shops (somewhat controversially).

National photo ID is unrelated to these privacy issues, which I would agree do require legislation to curb.

It would require some thinking, but I don't see why we couldn't use driving licences.

They are incompatible with eIDAS.
Most EU countries now issue eIDAS compliant ID (or equivalent) which allow for cryptographic identity verification and signing.

A plastic card (with no chip) cannot do that. Neither can a passport, which is subject to different international standards.

Making driving licences defacto ID is a bodge, incompatible with other international standards. We do not need to reinvent the wheel!

And on the flip side your movement is tracked across the country, and logged in a central database, potentially for years.

I entirely empathise and agree with the concern. Regrettably these databases already exist.

We have all the downsides of a fragmented approach to digital identity, an unprecented increase in surveillance (which apparently the electrote are comfortable with) and yet still don't consider any of the benefits that national ID worth having.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

It is no coincidence that almost all countries which have a compulsory ID scheme don't simply use passports...

Indeed; most Europeans just carry their ID card! Much easier.

 

[styles]

Anything that is linked to the Govt and Civil Service to monitor and coerce us could be open to abuse. Whilst I can see some benefits from such a card, especially in the fight against welfare fraud, tax evasion etc, we don't have to look far, even on the pages of this forum, to see views that if replicated by Civil Servants or Govt, could restrict our freedoms.
Maybe I've gone full on conspiracy theorist, but I don't trust our governing class any further than I could throw them, and certainly not since the 1990's.
I'd need a lot of convincing that the necessary safeguards were in place to prevent abuses in personal freedom.

This is fundamentally the issue. The UK population simply doesn't have the trust or confidence in the government to operate such a system.

I mean we've got MI5 being considered for contempt of court proceedings for covering up and falsifying evidence to protect a staff member guilty of violently abusing their partner. We've got Tories running VIP procurement processes for their mates, Reform MPs being kicked out for potentially claiming fraudulent COVID loans through shell companies, Labour making promises like we won't raise taxes, then raising taxes, the SNP spending campaign donations on campervans.

And that's just the intentionally dodgy stuff. There's also the sheer incompetence of UK government to run large projects (like a mandatory ID card scheme would be). How many times has a government promised to create a centralised NHS database only for the whole thing to fall apart, or privacy concerns to be raised from private company involvement? How long did Universal Credit take to deliver and how over budget? A literal decade overdue on completion and 600% of the original budget. Let's not even get started on the Horizon scandal.

Basically these are not people to trust to build something like a national ID card scheme and the supporting infrastructure required. Granted it might be given to the Government Digital Service who are excellent, but there's no guarantee, and if anti competition law requires it go out to tender and created merely under GDS guidelines, we'll have the same old problems.

While there will always be objections to a mandatory ID card scheme, I suspect many people could be converted if the state actually gave them the belief that their data would be held securely, privately, accurately, and not abused by law enforcement or intelligence agencies. Until that trust is repaired, I can't see it happening.

 

[66701GBRF]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, what would it gain us, Well, Lets say your found unconscious then you can be identified and NOK informed, Lets say your mugged, and your IDcard stolen, then that card could be flagged, and if its used, an alert goes up, and that will make it easier to solve some crimes, lets say, you have to go to somewhere, thats an government building, then, if your carrying your ID and you have an appointment, you should be able to just scan in. what does it gain, security, in an increasingly insecure world.

I have nothing against ID cards in general but to make them mandatory carry you then have to legislate it, give police powers to stop and check and then have punitive measures for anyone not carrying them. So what happens if someone forgets to take it out with them, has it stolen or lost? Warning, fine, imprisonment? All sounds like a slippery slope to me.

The rest your justifications seem like pie in the sky or would actually affect very little.