That’s such a ridiculous and naive thing to say.
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That’s already the case here, what’s the issue with the police identifying you based only on reasonable suspicion?
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Should we have a universal ID card?
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That would probably set off the countries that don't want an ID card, including the UK (then a member) and Denmark, as well as countries that have never issued ID cards such as Ireland, so how would you standardise it?
paper licences were obsoleted in the late 90s, so you have an odd idea of what "modern" is. They remain valid for now but anyone who has had to make any changes to their licence, including a change of address, would have had to convert to a photocard at the same time. Of course this also includes when you turn 70.
It would be a fairly small minority who still have valid paper licences (including my dad)
This x1000.
jon81uk
Member
Although an e-bike is pedal assist really and needs you to pedal at time to keep the motor running, whereas a scooter is a motor vehicle, they are designed for solely motor propulsion.
I expect people with only paper licenses are getting fewer and fewer, the photocard came in 1998 and those over 70 or who have moved address since then will now have a photocard license.
Yes many people won't have moved house in 27 years, but I expect very few people now have paper licenses.
LYradial
Member
Why are we all talking about little plastic cards as a form of ID, surely this technology is totally dated and a mobile phone is all you need.
i agree with post 78, a micro chip inserted in an appropriate part of the body, associated with the national database, could do it all, pay for anything, sensed as you get on the train and again when you leave, get carried off in an ambulance, immediate access to your health records, the possibilities are endless, by the time we have issued 68 million little cards the world will have moved on 20 years and we will all be civil servants keeping track of each other
i agree with post 78, a micro chip inserted in an appropriate part of the body, associated with the national database, could do it all, pay for anything, sensed as you get on the train and again when you leave, get carried off in an ambulance, immediate access to your health records, the possibilities are endless, by the time we have issued 68 million little cards the world will have moved on 20 years and we will all be civil servants keeping track of each other
Because not everyone will have a mobile phone or a mobile phone with a screen. Because plastic cards don't run out of battery or crack to the point of being unusable. Because there are already mechanisms in place to issue government plastic cards.
LYradial
Member
Plastic cards get lost, people pick up the wrong wallet, (so they say), it can take some people ages to find the right card, I see more and more people using phone to pay rather than bank card.
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This should get merged, the only government plastic card I have is a driving licenc, that is purely visual and non tech.
there will always be exceptions in any system, but my view is that plastic cards in general are old tech
Nothing prevents a complementary approach with a Digital ID system
Cloud Strife
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Poland has an interesting approach to this. In short, the passport and ID cards are an 'identification document', which must be accepted by anyone that wants to identify you for whatever reason. For instance, the bank, the post office, whatever. It's not permitted to refuse to accept these as a form of identification and they can be used everywhere.
There's also the concept of 'document confirming identity', which are things like driving licences, residence permits, student ID cards, etc. These can be used to identify yourself to the state, so if you need to pick up a letter from the post office or to apply for something at the town hall, this is enough. Unfortunately, for crossing the state border, still only a passport or ID card is enough until next year, when the EU will allow phone-based ID cards to be used for travel.
Andorra generally doesn't bother unless they're specifically looking for someone, and Spain rather focuses on customs checks, but France does stop people, especially those of non-European looking origin. They rebuilt the border crossing a few years ago for this reason, as Spain has a habit of issuing visas and residence permits that are specifically not valid for travel within Schengen. But yes, while the border is mostly open, they're still not officially in Schengen. There are some proposals in this respect to reduce the need for controls at the border, but nothing has been agreed yet.
Ireland has an ID card that pretends not to be one, the Passport Card. It's bizarrely only available if you already have a valid passport, but it's an ID card in all but name. Gibraltar also has ID cards for everyone. Denmark has an ID card system, but for some strange reason, it's not valid for travel. Having said that, Danes use their driving licences in most situations anyway, just like Brits.
My ID card stays very much at home, unless I'm going somewhere close to the border and I might cross it for the sake of it.
Sure, if you don't mind excluding 5-13% (depending on survey choice) of the population who don't have a smartphone. Around 6% of people don't even have Internet access at home.
Not to mention the usual objections of poor signal (these things need to be online-verifiable, not just screenshots), running out of battery, bugs in apps, etc. The penalty fares and prosecutions forum is littered with people encountering such issues, and people justifying why they prefer physical Railcards.
You've also then effectively linked an ID with a person's phone, which tracks tonnes of data about them. It's fine for now maybe that when it's installed it won't require location permission or whatever, but it's not difficult to see how this can creep. People in the UK might mock the idea that we have censorship and tracking at the level say China does, but the Snoopers' Charter, porn ID laws, abuses of RIPA over decades, MI5 facing contempt of court charges, campaign groups banned for exploiting chicken wire fences, making it a criminal offence to cause 'nuisance' even when protesting, etc all suggests we are moving that way, just some years behind is all.
It's easy to see why people might not want this sort of thing mandated or even strongly required to access certain services.
I say this as someone who hasn't really made their mind up on mandatory ID. But only offering it on a smartphone is, in my view, bonkers.
bahnause
Member
They don't, in the same way eTickets don't need to be "online verifiable".
It seems fairly clear which direction government identity is moving with the aspirations for the Gov.UK app and One Login (replacement for Verify).
LYradial
Member
my thinking is that if we are to have an id system it should be designed for tomorrows world, not be based on twenty year old technology.
A powerful chip could be integrated with any item, a watch, a signet ring, or even since they seem very popular, an ornamental piercing, whatever, by the time it has been implemented technology will have changed again.
who knows, by then we might have managed to install a bit more tech. on the railway
A powerful chip could be integrated with any item, a watch, a signet ring, or even since they seem very popular, an ornamental piercing, whatever, by the time it has been implemented technology will have changed again.
who knows, by then we might have managed to install a bit more tech. on the railway
Quite - which is why if we're going to invest in some technological solution it needs status verification, the ability to revoke an ID 'card' which has been cloned or shared or found to contain false details etc.
The UK is already 'behind the times' on this - if they make a half-baked solution we'll just forever be on the back foot against fraudsters and identity thieves.
LYradial
Member
Another thought, instead of us all carrying ID why not use what we all have, unique DNA, anyone authorised to request identification carries an instant DNA tester, just lick this sterile pad please, what flavour would you like
Cherry blossom. It'll remind bootlickers of times gone by.
(It's a joke, pls don't take srsly)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Identical twins have identical DNA.
LYradial
Member
would that apply to any other id system, I am closely related to true identical twins, you really cannot tell them apart even when they are side by side
dangie
On Moderation
Reading the comments about the plus’s & minus’s & advantages & disadvantages of ID cards, driving licences, mobile phones, birth certificates, DNA etc etc….. I’m beginning to think my tongue in cheek remark of everyone being microchipped is not such a bad idea after all 
There's a Neuralink contract sitting in the Home Office in-tray as we speak!Reading the comments about the plus’s & minus’s & advantages & disadvantages of ID cards, driving licences, mobile phones, birth certificates, DNA etc etc….. I’m beginning to think my tongue in cheek remark of everyone being microchipped is not such a bad idea after all
Shall we have a police officer stationed outside your door so everytime you leave your house you blow into a breathalyser and do your DNA swab?
LYradial
Member
My every thought appearing instantly on X, I’d better learn to behave.There's a Neuralink contract sitting in the Home Office in-tray as we speak!
(had to look it up)
This is the key thing for me. A lot of people complain about how much of an imposition it is to have prove your identity and how we shouldn't have to be a "papers please" society. But that rather misses the fact that we already are a papers please society and I reckon suggests (at least for some) a certain level of naivety in that they've not had to interact all that much (if at all) with systems that require extensive proof of identity (again, not everyone opposed is in this boat to be clear).
Take for instance renting a private property. Before you can rent your landlord is required (though obviously some dubious ones might not bother!) to carry out a "right to rent" check. If your British or Irish you can use:
But if you don't have those then you have to produce two of the following documents:
Prove your right to rent in England
Find out how to prove your right to rent in England to a landlord. Get an online share code to prove your right to rent if you’re eligible or check what documents you can use instead.
Or you could use an ID card which would confirm that you are who you say you are and you are a British Citizen therefore eligible to rent. You could also make it possible, as you point out in Poland, to not even need to use the card itself but use a suitable app which can provide the relevant evidence. We do sort of have this already in the UK as we're moving (incorrectly in my view, as you can't beat having physical proof alongside the ease of digital) from issuing Biometic Residence Permits to using "Sharecodes" instead. The person in question generates a code, you go to gov.uk input the code and usually their date of birth and the code will confirm their right to live and work in the UK. Bada bing bada boom. Nice and simple. No fussing around with passports or multiple random documents.
Or how about getting a job? Same thing you have to prove your right to work:
Prove your right to work to an employer
Find out how to prove your right to work in the UK to an employer. Get an online share code to prove your right to work if you’re eligible or check what documents you can use instead.
Or we could have an ID card scheme with online verification...
Want to open a bank account? Usually two documents to prove address and who you are. What to apply for certain benefits? You'll need to prove who you are and where you live again using multiple documents. Etc etc etc.
We already live in a "papers please" society we've just decided to make it harder than it needs to be to provide the papers!
Absolutely there should be no mandatory requirement to carry an ID card but it's crackers we refuse to implement a national ID card scheme yet have made our lives increasingly bureaucratic and require proof of identity and status to be in the UK more and more without making it easy for people to do this. Crackers.
It's hard to find data in a quick Google but 10 years ago the DVLA was saying the following:
No more paper counterpart to the photocard driving licence will save the taxpayer millions each year
From today (8 June 2015), the paper counterpart to the photocard driving licence is being replaced by an online service.
So they were already a comfortable minority of licences back in 2015 (at around 20% of licences). In the intervening ten years a huge number of those will have been replaced due to people reaching 70 (that's what got my mum), moving, giving up their licence all together, or dying (as statistically those with paper licences will have been older). I bet it's down to single figure percentages of licence holders now that have a paper licence. So the suggestion that it's only "new" drivers that have a photocard licence is patently ridiculous. You need to catch up with the times
The thing about these examples are that they don't relate to mandatory carrying of ID, or indeed a mandatory ID card.This is the key thing for me. A lot of people complain about how much of an imposition it is to have prove your identity and how we shouldn't have to be a "papers please" society. But that rather misses the fact that we already are a papers please society and I reckon suggests (at least for some) a certain level of naivety in that they've not had to interact all that much (if at all) with systems that require extensive proof of identity (again, not everyone opposed is in this boat to be clear).
Take for instance renting a private property. Before you can rent your landlord is required (though obviously some dubious ones might not bother!) to carry out a "right to rent" check. If your British or Irish you can use:
But if you don't have those then you have to produce two of the following documents:
Prove your right to rent in England
Find out how to prove your right to rent in England to a landlord. Get an online share code to prove your right to rent if you’re eligible or check what documents you can use instead.www.gov.uk
Or you could use an ID card which would confirm that you are who you say you are and you are a British Citizen therefore eligible to rent. You could also make it possible, as you point out in Poland, to not even need to use the card itself but use a suitable app which can provide the relevant evidence. We do sort of have this already in the UK as we're moving (incorrectly in my view, as you can't beat having physical proof alongside the ease of digital) from issuing Biometic Residence Permits to using "Sharecodes" instead. The person in question generates a code, you go to gov.uk input the code and usually their date of birth and the code will confirm their right to live and work in the UK. Bada bing bada boom. Nice and simple. No fussing around with passports or multiple random documents.
Or how about getting a job? Same thing you have to prove your right to work:
Prove your right to work to an employer
Find out how to prove your right to work in the UK to an employer. Get an online share code to prove your right to work if you’re eligible or check what documents you can use instead.
Or we could have an ID card scheme with online verification...
Want to open a bank account? Usually two documents to prove address and who you are. What to apply for certain benefits? You'll need to prove who you are and where you live again using multiple documents. Etc etc etc.
We already live in a "papers please" society we've just decided to make it harder than it needs to be to provide the papers!
Absolutely there should be no mandatory requirement to carry an ID card but it's crackers we refuse to implement a national ID card scheme yet have made our lives increasingly bureaucratic and require proof of identity and status to be in the UK more and more without making it easy for people to do this. Crackers.
It's hard to find data in a quick Google but 10 years ago the DVLA was saying the following:
No more paper counterpart to the photocard driving licence will save the taxpayer millions each year
From today (8 June 2015), the paper counterpart to the photocard driving licence is being replaced by an online service.
So they were already a comfortable minority of licences back in 2015 (at around 20% of licences). In the intervening ten years a huge number of those will have been replaced due to people reaching 70 (that's what got my mum), moving, giving up their licence all together, or dying (as statistically those with paper licences will have been older). I bet it's down to single figure percentages of licence holders now that have a paper licence. So the suggestion that it's only "new" drivers that have a photocard licence is patently ridiculous. You need to catch up with the times
Yes you need proof of identification to get a job or rent a house, but there's a long list of acceptable ID, and you are not required to carry it any time out in public.
I can think of a simple case of abuse which would be very common. If you watch videos of these
If the UK wasn't going to anti-liberty, particularly in relation to protest, it might not be such a concern for people. But I think there are genuine worries that people will be forced to identify themselves with absolutely no suspicion of criminal behaviour, which would in many cases be perfectly legal.
Yes? As I said I'm opposed to the mandatory carrying of ID? However I am in favour of introducing a an ID card that simplifies the interactions with the state and various businesses when they need to verify who you are for various purposes. Far easier for everyone both those needing to prove who they are and those who need them to provide the proof. As well as being more secure overall. It's pretty easy to forge documents in photoshop (or equivalents) so how useful really are bank statements, or council tax bills, or DWP letters in proving who you are really?
Yes? As I said clearly in my post I'm opposed to the mandatory carriage of ID?
A number tattooed on your wrist and readableby appropriate scanners would be an alternative low tech solution
But wasn't this whole thread created to discuss mandatory ID? I mean this was the context from the thread this was split from:
If it's really to discuss the introduction of an optional ID card which won't do anything to deter crime, I think I'll say it's a massive waste of money on a project UK gov will mess up and leave it there tbh.Hadders said:
Yes but sometimes discussions develop in other directions? That's how a conversation tends to flow? And after more than 100 posts it's not surely a surprise that people are expanding beyond a narrow initial context to consider other factors within the topic being raised?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
may I ask why?
Most large corporations/office buildings will have plain access passes these days as a security measure - if somebody drops a credit card sized piece of white plastic in Reading town centre, you'll have no idea which of the many office buildings it is for.
Has caused issues for some of our staff members who have access cards for the various office buildings we're in as they can then never tell which one they need to use to get in to which building though.
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